The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Joe
Thank-you for the links I found one of them very informative, the other two are no longer accessable.
I have read Kenworthy's books as well as Penfield's, Storms, Sheffield, and can find fault in all of them concerning interpretations of treasure signs and symbols.
The bottom line is, until a treasure is recovered using them, they should not be accepted as valid.
Still many of the trail markers identified by Kenworthy, are really there as I have seen them myself.
It has been my experience that professional people are reluctant to state or claim any association with a treasure hunter, even Mel Fisher could not get much support untill after his initial discovery of the Atocha.
What this means for me is that while information provided by reputable historians is most often useful, it should not become a hinderance to further research, if field information points to such research.
This site as well as many others has tolerated a high level of ridiculous ideas and theories, and I recognize that mine are in the same catagory due to the lack of documentation.
I would like to be able to show someone else these discoveries and get their opinion about them, I offered this to Jim Hatt but I was unaware of his condition at that time.
Maybe if I can make it to the next rendezvous, I will be able to meet and talk with some of the more seasoned hunters.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Alan,


He was also the man that Chuck Kenworthy claimed he had hired to search those same archives, looking for and finding the "King's Code". Most of the information that Chuck found on that document was used in his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow and Sun Signs". Trouble is, Dr. Lyon told me he had never worked for Kenworthy, although he did have one phone conversation with him about the location of a sunken Spanish ship. He knew nothing about a "King's Code".
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[Roger Post subject: Eugene Lyon ProfilePosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:23 PM


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Posts: 329 I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".

Joe
Joe
I can not find any reference to Mr. Lyons or anything about copies of documents in Kenworthy's books, page 15 or otherwise.
Can you provide any clarification ?
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Correction to a previous post,
Should read, Stephen B Shaffer, not Sheffield.
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Alan,

Since your theories, and symbols found in the field, may not conform to the explanations of the "experts" on Spanish treasure symbols, you may want to consider writing your own book. That may be all of the profit you will ever receive for your work.

Not saying you are wrong, just that you are one of hundreds who have walked this same trail. While some have claimed they found treasure, none have been authenticated to date, and most have never even been seen.

Many of the "trail markers" documented by Kenworthy are nothing more than natural formations that look like......something. Others, who have been with Chuck, state that he could see Spanish markers in everything.

Coming to next years Rendezvous is an excellent idea. There will be many people there who have had years of experience and can help you with qualified opinions on your theories. That would be especially true for those sites which are located in the Superstitions.

Even though we had told blind bowman that his site had been well searched for years, he did not accept our word on it. By coming to the Rendezvous, he was able to show us exactly where he was going, and get some advice from a number of Dutch Hunters. In any case, you will enjoy the people and the event.

Good Luck,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by zentull »

Armchair made an interesting point a few pages back concerning the LDM being in the 4 peaks area, which was part of Gottfrieds searches. I ran into a gentleman sometime back and have pictures of ore he had hidden away in the back of his property that he bought from an assayer that came from the LDM which was in the 4 peaks area. I wasn't convinced but found the story intriguing coupled with Gottfrieds last searches. Jack Carlson provided a little help trying to track down some of the names, but again nothing that really grabbed me.

Still it is interesting that there is a real possibility that the last of the LDM ore is piled up in the back corner of a lot under an old tarp.

The place is a goldmine of junk from the last 120 years, including a Donofrios neon sign, old horse troughs from Washington street, the original stonework from the first Valley National bank and a lot of stuff from the Orobelle mine. Each time I look around I see a piece of something out of a history book.

And I managed a couple of days off finally since the Rendezvous.....time to breathe.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by djui5 »

U still owe me a visit to see that ore 8O
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by jalidi »

All the reading I've done (Sims Ely, Glover, Conatser) weighs pretty heavy in favor of -something- in the Superstitions. Maybe even a Lost Dutchman Mine. They've certainly got samples of the original ore and if I read correctly it doesn't seem to match anything from any other known mine elsewhere in Arizona.

I really do think it is Lost, though. After 120 years all of the markers left by Waltz have probably been obliterated by nature, man, animal... except for that large cache he intended to retrieve at the last. It's likely the only thing left by the original owner which could tell you that you're finally near the mine, which is itself by now likely buried, whether by Waltz or Apache or nature.

Sims Elys' divulgence has Waltz estimating that he had 20,000 dollars worth of ore, back when gold was trading at 20 dollars an ounce... that much hand sorted gold ore lumped together in a hole covered with dirt ought to show up with a metal detector, shouldn't it? I'm sure that it must've been heavy. Maybe that's why he wanted Julia and Rhinehart to go with him on that last trip: he needed their horses to move that much ore all at once. But after looking at the Superstitions under Google Earth I realized that I could live another five lifetimes and still not be able to cover that much ground... unless I knew exactly where to go, of course.

Being a Canadian I doubt I ever will see those mountains but I nonetheless hope to see the report that the mine has been found at last! Every good story deserves a happy ending. :)
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Somehiker »

jalidi:

Your first post shows wisdom well beyond your level of experience.
Especially your comment regarding Google Earth. :)
G/E is no substitute for being there !!
Much of what you see on G/E is impassable,as are most of the "treasure trails" proposed by G/E hikers.
I too,believe that discovery of a cache of concentrated ore, sufficiently similar to the "matchbox ore",will suggest a close proximity to the LDM.
I can assure you,that the expense of a few days worth of hiking in the Superstitions is well worth it and brings a far greater understanding of why the legends persist and the mysteries remain unsolved.

Regards:SH.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Cubfan64 »

I can assure you,that the expense of a few days worth of hiking in the Superstitions is well worth it and brings a far greater understanding of why the legends persist and the mysteries remain unsolved.
I too echo SH's comment about the worthwhile adventure of spending several days hiking/exploring the Superstitions to truly get a feel for why there could be more than a few "hidden treasures" still waiting to be found there.

5 lifetimes may not even be enough :).

Take a vacation sometime down there and you'll have a great time.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by jalidi »

Thank you for your kind comments! ^^ It's enjoyable to have contact with people who're actually close to the legend itself.

I have taken the time to read through the very worthwhile information both on this forum and posted elsewhere on the Net, especially the DesertUSA forum originally hosted by Mr. Jim Hatt.
It really was kind of like the equivalent of listening to a thousand whispers over the campfires in the Superstitions. Clearly Dutchhunting is in the 21st century!

I agree that Google Earth isn't a substitute for the real thing. I'm no stranger to hiking and camping alone in the wilderness but, at least from orbit, Arizona looks like a whole different planet. Especially for someone like me who'd likely only consider hiking. I'm deathly allergic to horses, and burros too. So if I ever do make a prospecting expedition after I retire in twenty years (I'm 35) at least I will not have wasted nineteen years looking for mine.

Out of curiousity how reliable do you think was the one clue where the setting sun shines on some part of whatever Waltz left behind... his mine, his cave, his buried cache? Well, I noticed that if you set Google Earth to 7 o'clock or so, it throws a good percentage of the terrain into full shadow. I guess you'd have to work your way through the parts in the light so, uh, I guess that'd reduce it to a mere couple of lifetimes. No sweat, everyone's living longer nowadays. ;)
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Somehiker »

Jalidi:

If you adjust the slide to between 5-6 pm,it will give a better indication of sunset shadow during the nov-mar period when JW probably spent time out there. Twenty years should give you plenty of time to filter what information is and will be available.Heck,it might still be there when you finally get going. :wink:

Regards:SH.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

jalidi,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

The Supe's are a wonderful place to explore. Never felt I wasted a moment of time while in there.

Here's a place that matches your clue:

Image

It took three years of working summers only to clean out whatever had been left in there.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

You can follow the discussion of this shaft here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... f=1&t=1122

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by jalidi »

Thanks for the GE tip, SH... I'll be looking at it in a new light! And thanks for the picture welcome, Joe. :)

It does bring up a good point, though... that the Dutchman is probably clogged up and, even if you found the site, after all this time it'd take no small feat just to reach that buried vein. I'll check out that suggested link, the heads up is appreciated.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

jalidi,
Ditto -
Welcome to the LDM Forum!

Something else to consider is the possibility that Waltz's mine has been uncovered by erosion and the elements; according to one set of clues, the vein crops out below the actual mine, down in the canyon some distance and Waltz made some effort to conceal this too, but this area would be much more likely to get uncovered by the simple action of rain and runoff.

Good luck and good hunting to you and to all reading our discussion, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by don »

Hi Jalidi,
My opinion,for what it is worth is....Dont pay much attention (if any) to the so called clues that are oft bandied about....i.e "the sun sets on my mine"...4 peaks lining up as one,"oro" carvings that are /were often cited as proof,or at least evidence that, the mine was near etc. There is nothing thaT proves there ISNT a mine,and equally there is nothing to prove that there IS one either.Come to that ,theres no hard evidence that Waltz ever hard large amounts of cash,or gold dust, floating around his person,at any time in his life,in fact its easier to believe the exact opposite.I personally wouldnt put too much faith in the "gold matchbox" story either,or indeed anything Holmes said/wrote.Some have the opinion that because said matchbox ,or rather the gold that it consists of ,doesnt originate from any known mine in Arizona proves that indeed it came from the Dutchmans mine.....of course it proves nothing of the sort.But there you go.
It appears to me that,judging from your words,you seem to be falling into the same trap that most of us here have,(myself included),at one time or another.i.e discarding logical thought in favour of daydreams, basically seeing what we wish to see,and ignoring what might be staring us in the face,for fear of wrecking the dream . .As for the LDM literature out there,Well...There are very few books that have been written (again in my opinion,) about the LDM that have been honestly written most have a few verifiable facts thrown in to suggest an air of authenticityto the tale,but then devote another 200 pages or so deliberately trading on,and counting on, the readers gullibility ....Believe me -Ive read most of them. :(
Anyway that my two bobs worth .Take care
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigos,

I think a major problem arises in the modern sources, when we ought to stick to the oldest available as they were closest to the original source - Waltz. Mitchell reported two witnesses who saw Waltz sell a burro load of very rich gold ore in Florence; he raised several thousand dollars in gold ore to help bail out his friends Julia and Reiney that was sold at a jeweler's store in Phoenix, and on his death, a candle box was found beneath his bed with some 44 (may be 48, am working from memory) pounds of very rich gold ore. This ore does not match the ore from any known source in Arizona. As for gold bars or his having stolen the ore from another mine, there is nothing to support such stories. No mega-zillions in gold, and Waltz's reference about how much gold remains in the mine suggests that a great deal is still there and not likely that someone sneaking into the hills and working it in secret would be able to remove it all. Waltz only mined enough for a sort of old-age pension and lived quite frugally, though he could have lived quite comfortably had he wished.

Old timers interviewed during the great depression that claimed to have known Waltz in Florence, said that it was no big secret that he had a rich gold mine somewhere in the Superstitions. He told his friends that his mine was up in those mountains while pointing at them. Now we are all free to dismiss or discard any information we don't find worthy of trust, but I would suggest to get back to the basics for there is something to this "legend" that is pretty remarkable and has not been found yet.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS as to those "early sources" I would recommend stick to Sims Ely's book, the Bark notes, the Pioneer interviews, and John D. Mitchell, which is not to say that several excellent modern books exist like Helen Corbin's book Curse of the Dutchman's Gold etc but there are some that have a great deal of BS blended into the mix and probably should be avoided. Bicknell's articles are the earliest <I think> but unfortunately Bicknell is one of the worst for adding BS to the story.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

PPS - I should have specified, the stories of Waltz having a stash of gold bars are not based on fact, there are several un-related stories of stashes of gold bars in Arizona, NM and California with varying degrees of documentation. Waltz was never seen selling or cashing in any gold bars, only very rich gold ore or gold dust.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Howdy, new guy to the forum here. Grew up in AZ and still spend alot of time there prospecting, have property there, etc. Learned about the Dutchman from Grandad.

I personally have doubts about Jacob Waltz having a mine in the Supes, and its something I always come back to when I start thinking the legend(s) may be true. I have heard so many stories about it from so many people (locals), and have read most of the books...over and over...you know how it is. Anyway:

I think Jacob was well known by everyone who first came to the valley. He was one of them. He had neighbors who had probably known him for years. We learn that it's likely that several of those people were active in mining, both in CA and up in the Bradshaws/Black Canyon, etc. Here's the kicker.

Apparently none of THOSE people ever wondered where he got his gold. I would think that any of those old-timers that knew him in CA and Central AZ, would notice if he showed up in Miguel Peralta's store with more gold than they "expected" him to have. Perhaps the "real" old-timers knew Jacob had gold, knew exactly where he'd gotten it over the years, and probably knew details like when the Gross Lode played out, that maybe he still had several pounds of ore from California (like they all probably did), etc. It's only after that generation passes, that suddenly all these stories pop up and they had absolutely no knowledge of his previous mines or background...recent researchers have had to fill in those blanks because the people who made up the stories didn't know Waltz personally, at least not enough to know important background details...hence, the conflicting legends and clues, as writers of books are misled or given bogus information they believe to be true.

Not trying to gore anyone's ox, just throwing it out there.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Jim,

There were no hardrock mines along the San Gabriel River. It was all hydraulics, sluicing, and panning. Trust me, I live about five minutes from Azusa Canyon/San Gabriel River.

The Bradshaws are another story, but I doubt he dragged a bunch of gold ore INTO the Supers to cache it. Remember what he told Julia and Rhiney.

Mike
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Hi Mike,
You’re right about the CA placering/hydraulicking. Wasn’t thinking about that, was thinking about the George Holmes discovery of a vein while out “cutting timber”, and the story that Waltz was “sent for” or somehow involved in the mining of it prior to hitting the water table. I may be wrong but I think it was described as a quartz/gold deposit.

And I don’t really believe that anything he told Julia and/or Rhiney, or for that matter Holmes, is accurately reproduced. He may have told them he was absolutely sure there was a Peralta mine over there. He may have described it as “my mine”. He may have told them he had a buddy that found it, was killed, but he “knew” where it was. Who knows what he said? I can’t bring myself to believe any of the stories I’ve heard or read, even though I really want to.

My reasoning is that there’s a deafening silence about Jake’s mine in the Supes from his peers that were with him in CA/Bradshaws, and soon thereafter settled the valley. Why do we have “Barks Notes”, Ely, Holmes…if this were an issue, say from 1878-1890, why don’t we have instead “Miguel Peraltas Notes” or “George Roberts and A.H. Peeples notes, with margin notations by the Starrar Bros.”, or, “The True Story of How Joe Green Tracked Jake Into the Supes Because He Was Seen Buying Levi’s With Gold In A Quartz Matrix at Peralta’s Store, and Joe Knew Jake Shouldn’t Have Any Gold.”

I believe this is because those who really knew him, and mined with him, thought that Jake having gold was perfectly normal. They may have even seen him carting gold to PHX when they all went down there to “dig ditches”.

Imagine Rhiney or Holmes going into a PHX saloon in 1895. He is overheard saying ”Jake was a rebel soldier, killed his nephew, rescued Miguel Peralta in Sonora back in ’64, murdered some peons, a prospector or three, was seen in the vicinity of Weavers Needle runnin from a passel of Apaches with his burro ridin him instead of the other way around” (insert any claim from Petrasch or Holmes here.)

Someone might have stood up and said “I want whatever that feller’s drinkin. Because I saw Waltz and Peralta up in the Bradshaws all the time in ‘64. And he must have been a mighty good shot in the civil war to hit anyone from where he was standing in the diggings over in Cali. And furthermore, I knew Jakes favorite burro by his first name, and he told me that Jake NEVER let any animal ride him.”

The same scenario in 1912: “Who the hell is Jacob Wolzer? Let me buy you a drink, tell me some more about this.” “You wouldn’t happen to have a map, would you? What mountains, you say?”

My point is, there are no secrets in prospecting. If Jake had a mine of any substance, it would have been noticed long before it was. The only stories we have to go on, come to us from folks who didn’t even know that Waltz was mining in the Bradshaws. They had to make up backstories for him because they simply did not know him. Holmes may have known who he was, but he wasn’t mining with him in CA and Bradshaws.

I know I have really stepped in it. I didn’t come on here to kick anyone’s dog, and I really do believe there is some truth to this thing, if we could only get to the truth through all the yarnin. I do hereby state, that if anyone finds the LDM in the Supes using any info currently available to the general public, that I will shovel snow out of your driveway for a week, as long as you live in Phoenix. :wink:
Jim R.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Sorry, would like to revise and extend my remarks... :oops:

"... was thinking about the George Holmes discovery..." I meant Roberts, not Holmes.

And my theoretical scenario on saloon conversations...I should have said "insert any claims commonly attributed to Petrash or Holmes here". Maybe neither one of those men ever said anything that is commonly attributed to them today. I didn't mean to imply that I thought either one was spinning yarns, nor do I think any modern authors were either. I was questioning the provenance of information that seems to appear after Waltz's death, that modern research has contradicted.

Thanks for your patience, Jim
Jim R.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"There were no hardrock mines along the San Gabriel River. It was all hydraulics, sluicing, and panning. Trust me, I live about five minutes from Azusa Canyon/San Gabriel River."

I also lived in the LA area for many years. Did a lot of dredging in those mountains. As I recall, there were many old hardrock mines, both in Azusa Canyon and along the San Gabriel River.
Might not be any working mines today, but there once was.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I believe I even have a book out in the garage named "Mines of the San Gabriels", or something close to that.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

Potbelly Jim wrote
My point is, there are no secrets in prospecting. If Jake had a mine of any substance, it would have been noticed long before it was. The only stories we have to go on, come to us from folks who didn’t even know that Waltz was mining in the Bradshaws. They had to make up backstories for him because they simply did not know him. Holmes may have known who he was, but he wasn’t mining with him in CA and Bradshaws.
Well I am not here to try to convince you of a reality concerning Waltz and his mine, once a person disbelieves something it is near impossible to ever believe. Your proposed scenario of the saloon conversations are pure speculation amigo. There are stories from people who claimed to know Waltz in his younger days involving saloon conversations, in which he gave out mysterious clues that are today in the mix of over 100 such clues. I have to respecfully disagree with your contention that there are no secrets in prospecting. Even today, there is a huge risk in filing a mining claim for it will attract unwanted attention and even un-invited visitors. I lost a very rich placer mine in Alaska mostly due to having filed the claim on it, which attracted the attention of a group that ended up getting it away from my wife and I. Had we simply never filed a claim but mined in secret, we might well have made a decent profit without ever attracting attention.

In Waltz's day things were even more dangerous, for listing the exact spot of your mine was to invite a dry gulcher to lie in wait for you at the mine to murder you, as well as claim jumpers by the dozens. Waltz is hardly the only case in which a prospector discovered a rich mine and NEVER filed a claim on it, nor revealed where it was really located. If you research old mining claims you will also often see that the owners (discoverers) often mis-described the true location, as a way to mislead anyone that might be tempted to jump the claim.

Then there is the point that you seem to have missed on this, that is a point which our mutual amigo Mike has often pointed out in past, the actions of a person speak louder than his words. Now with the complex story of Waltz, Peraltas, massacre, murders etc there is some evidence that this whole story was lifted from that of two other miners named Jacobs and Ludi. For a long time I did not believe those two ever existed but another excellent researcher recently discovered documentation to prove they did, and their brief service in the military. Jacobs and Ludi are the Peralta connection, and it looks like either Waltz or those close to him (Julia, Reiney, or Holmes) simply substituted his name and Weiser in the places of Jacobs and Ludi. This doesn't mean Waltz did not have a mine or a remarkable story, just perhaps less exciting and dramatic.

Actions speaking louder than words - now I don't trust too much of what Holmes had to say, due to some falsehoods you can prove in the Holmes manuscript; and it doesn't help that Brownie disowned the text. However actions, actions actions - for Holmes tells of his having tried to follow Waltz and getting caught by Waltz, which struck fear into him. Then on the death of Waltz, Holmes launched into expedition after expedition to search the mountains for that mine. If there was really nothing to it, why should he have bothered? His own son continued that search and his partner Clay Wurst continued it many years after that. They seem to have believed there was truth to the story, especially since Holmes came into possession of the gold in that candle box.

Next look at Julia and Reiney. Reiney told of his having cheated Waltz in selling a bit of gold for him, and Julia benefited from Waltz's generosity when her bakery was about to fail due to debt. On the death of Waltz, Julia and Reiney soon were seen trekking the desert, looking for a secret marked trail, and were unable to find it. Julia sold out her bakery to finance her search. Would she do that if she did not believe Waltz had a mine? They claimed that Waltz had pointed at the Superstitions and told them his mine was up there, but that it was SO difficult to locate that he would almost have to take them to it or they would never find it. They contacted Reiney's father and brother to come and help them search, and the team tried, got into heated dispute and broke up the partnership; Reiney ended up committing suicide, his brother spun out his life in a continuing search as did his father. All of these persons seem to believe there was truth to Waltz's story of a mine, again based on their actions.

You named several well known Arizona pioneers - would you consider Doc John Walker to be in that class? Walker told a story of his queer encounter with a man that almost certainly was Waltz's partner, a man named Weiser. He told a matching story of Waltz having gone from the mine to get supplies to replace those lost due to a prank-prone mule from the mill at Adams Mill, and a surprise attack by Indians in which he was wounded desperately but managed to escape, coming out at the friendly Pima village near today's Sacaton where he was found and brought to Dr Walker. In gratitude to Walker for his kindness, he gave the mine to Walker and drew a map how to get there before he passed on. Walker never went looking for it, as he was the owner of the famous Vekol mine that the Pimas had shown him in their gratitude, plus he had quite a price on his head among the Apaches, but he seemed to believe there was something to the story.

There is a third, lesser known version of how Waltz got his gold mine, I believe Tom Kollenborn did an excellent article on it not too long ago, and (my opinion) it is most likely the true one. In that story, Waltz hired a carpenter (also named Jacob) in Florence to build him a portable dry washer; this dry washer gets explained away in the Holmes version as something he needed because he was losing a lot of fine gold, which as a prospector you know to be nonsense for dry washers are notoriously bad at recovering fine gold. In this alternate version, Waltz used the dry washer to trace back gold to find the vein that became his mine, and it was said that it was 'no big secret' in Florence at that time but became secret when he moved to Phoenix. The carpenter too, went searching in the Superstitions after Waltz died to search for the mine, so he must have believed it was true as well.

My apologies for getting carried away here, just that there has been SO much disinformation pumped into circulation especially in recent years, that only helps support disbelief. Often people come to the conclusion that the mine never existed, since so many have searched and none have found it, which is a false conclusion for a mine can remain hidden for a very, VERY long time and Waltz, by his word, went to some effort to conceal his mine. It was so well hidden, (paraphrasing here) that you could drive an Army pack train over it and never see it. He once warned his friend young Reinhard Petrasch, quote

"Reiney, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

I could go on here and list some of the long-lost mines that were found, as recently some gold mines of the Queen of Sheba were discovered, lost for over 25 centuries, but if you care to research the matter there are plenty of examples. Then too, Waltz's mine is most certainly not something the size of the Homestake but is quite small - the entrance being no larger than a barrel by one account, and not much work done on it to depth, something this size hidden in the vastness of the Superstitions is tantamount to the proverbial needle in a haystack. Now let someone hide the needle before you start!

Good luck and good hunting Potbelly Jim and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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