The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

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count
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The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by count »

Link to KGUN-TV "The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?"

http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/133032548.html

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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Very interesting that Tom K. considers it to be just a story .............. publicly. :wink:

Mike

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Tom has told me many times in private, face to face, conversations that he does not believe the mine exists. He does know rocks, so I have to respect that opinion.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i have had a number of well educated, experiened mining types tell me there is no mine...

then look directly down the slot into the supers...

8)

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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

While I do respect the opinion of anyone the likes of Tom Kollenborn, I always have to wonder. The biggest reason I can see for the DLM being just a fable is that some very great minds have searched for many years for it, and all have come up empty (publicly).

I still go back to something someone who had known Tom K for over twenty years told me:
Tom can make a very respectable case for either side of that discussion, and I came away from it without any idea of what his personal opinions about the validity of the maps were. If he knows he is speaking to a disbeliever, I can easily imagine him giving them his 20-minute version of the negative aspects of the validity of them, without presenting any of the positive aspects he is aware of, and avoiding the possibility of a disagreement with them. On the other hand if he knows he is speaking to a believer in the validity of them, It is just as easy for me to imagine that he would give them his 20-minute version of the positive aspects while avoiding the mention of any of the negative aspects.
Mike

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

If there is an LDM, or was, and I do believe in it, I would make an educated guess that Tom Kollenborn knows exactly where that mine is.

While that does not agree with what he has told me, I find both positions acceptable, knowing what I know.

Since I don't believe you have ever searched for Waltz's mine, I would suggest you might want to keep looking for other treasures.

Just my opinion, which many people count as worthless.

Take care,

Joe

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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

I think you may be surprised as to how many times I have been in the Supers. I don't advertise when or where I will show up, as I am looking for certain things each time I have been. Granted not nearly so many as most of you, though.

Mike

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sorry Mike,

My memory is not getting any better. I seem to recall that you told me you had never, personally, been in the Supes'.

That puts your opinions in an entirely different light.

Take care,

Joe

don
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by don »

Does it exist? Does what exist exactly?
It seems there are many differing opinions as to what exactly constitutes The Lost Dutchman.A mine or a cache? A mine AND a cache perhaps? The richest mine in the world or perhaps merely a small vein ? A Jesuit treasure?A newspaper invention? and so on and so forth.
Theres very little evidence of the existence of the traditional LDM,And even such evidence that does exist could be construed differently.Much of the evidence we read of comes from campfire tales and imaginative conjecture.It becomes a matter of faith,which is ok in its own way,but some authors ,through the years, have never known when,or where,to stop.
It doesnt take an academic to see through the garbage that has been written,by people who really should have known better,but who have added b.s upon b.s partly to earn a bit of cash,and partly to keep the pot boiling and to support the cottage industries which have sprung up around this issue.
We are all free to believe what we WANT to believe,and free to see what we WANT to see I guess.
Don update your email address

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by armchair »

I would also ask is it still the LDM if it is not in the Superstitions? In the early years when the LDM stories first started spreading there was just as much belief it was in Goldfield or Four Peaks as in the Supers. If one of those was the real location it is very likely the mine was found and worked out long ago, but no one realized it was the LDM!

If the mine was in the Supers I think Bark and Ely would have found it ... if there was something to find.

Shelby

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

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"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

armchair wrote:I would also ask is it still the LDM if it is not in the Superstitions? In the early years when the LDM stories first started spreading there was just as much belief it was in Goldfield or Four Peaks as in the Supers. If one of those was the real location it is very likely the mine was found and worked out long ago, but no one realized it was the LDM!

If the mine was in the Supers I think Bark and Ely would have found it ... if there was something to find.

Shelby
Jacob Waltz was very explicit in his clues that the LDM was indeed in the Superstition's
However, some do not believe that the clues were remembered correctly by Julia.
Still there is the evidence that Waltz's sojourns into the mountains and back to Phoenix with gold took only 4 days, a challenge for a man of his age to get anywhere deep into the mountains from Phoenix and back.
The interior of the Supers is rugged and even today some of the trails are tough.
It is hard to believe that Julia could have gotten the directions screwed up if the LDM was in Goldfield, She may have had some difficulty in locating it but I am sure that she would have at least remembered its general location and as such the legend today would reflect that.
There is also the matter of the "Peralta" and "Gonzales" maps which have been quite satisfactory been shown to represent the superstition mountains in the way that Weavers Needle and Four Peaks line up.
Having read Ely's book and part of the Bark notes, I don't think that either of those men were ever close to locating the LDM.
Alan

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Sorry Mike,

My memory is not getting any better. I seem to recall that you told me you had never, personally, been in the Supes'.

That puts your opinions in an entirely different light.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I apologize. I did, at one time, tell everyone that I had never been in the Supers. At the time, I had been getting in a lot of flame wars with some folks, and thought it better that I not advertise any of my comings and goings in the area. Most of that came after my initial correspondences with Jim Hatt, when he told me about his burro and dog both getting shot after his gorounds online. He couldn't PROVE they were connected, but the timing was very coincidental if it wasn't.

Mike

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Cubfan64 »

Mike McChesney wrote:
Joe Ribaudo wrote:Sorry Mike,

My memory is not getting any better. I seem to recall that you told me you had never, personally, been in the Supes'.

That puts your opinions in an entirely different light.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I apologize. I did, at one time, tell everyone that I had never been in the Supers. At the time, I had been getting in a lot of flame wars with some folks, and thought it better that I not advertise any of my comings and goings in the area. Most of that came after my initial correspondences with Jim Hatt, when he told me about his burro and dog both getting shot after his gorounds online. He couldn't PROVE they were connected, but the timing was very coincidental if it wasn't.

Mike
I had never heard until recently that Jim's burro and dog were shot on his property. Whether it's related or not to any of his online dealings, it's a pretty cowardly and disgusting thing of someone to do.

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Thanks! It's nice to know my memory is not as bad as.......what were we talking about?

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Jim didn't want me to share this at the time, but now I guess it would be okay. It might give some an idea why he was how he was.

Mike
For about 2 years following, my email was clogged with comments from people from both sides of the argument, the majority of which were from the side that believed the maps were a fake. I even received some of what you could call hate mail dropped of in my mailbox which is out by the road, out of site from my house, with no return address and no postage on the envelope. I blew it all off as cowardly nuisances and pretty much ignored them all. Then about a year ago, someone using the names of Jan & redison & Ray tucker (all I assume to be the same person) started posting a lot of information and pictures I had shared via e-mail with other people (too damn many to track back to their sources) on the Lost Dutchman Website run by Ron Feldman, and it all flared up again. That time I dumped the email address I had been using for years and set up a new one. That maneuver circumvented a bunch of B.S. I am sure, but I still had to deal with some. It seemed manageable and not much of a threat until one afternoon I went into town to cheek my PO Box that I use for eBay shipments and returned less than an hour later to find my Burro laying dead in his corral, shot by someone that pulled off the road out by my mailbox. This was not the first time, I also lost a dog the same way a few months earlier.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Cubfan64 »

Sheesh - it takes a disturbed and sick individual to do that to an animal all over a series of ultimately meaningless disagreements.

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"Then about a year ago, someone using the names of Jan & redison & Ray tucker (all I assume to be the same person) started posting a lot of information and pictures I had shared via e-mail with other people (too damn many to track back to their sources) on the Lost Dutchman Website run by Ron Feldman..."

Most people on the site had very strong suspicions concerning the identity of the people who's names Jim mentioned. All were believed to be the same person. Many things that are claimed in the Dutch Hunting community that turn out to be just the opposite of what is being disseminated.

I was told that the person who was stirring that multiple identity pot was asked to quit posting by Ron Feldman. I believe that to be true. That person was known to have told many lies over the years and created, as a result, a number of ex-friends.

"Trusted sources" have often been found to be less than truthful.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by armchair »

Jacob Waltz was very explicit in his clues that the LDM was indeed in the Superstition's
However, some do not believe that the clues were remembered correctly by Julia.
Still there is the evidence that Waltz's sojourns into the mountains and back to Phoenix with gold took only 4 days, a challenge for a man of his age to get anywhere deep into the mountains from Phoenix and back.
The interior of the Supers is rugged and even today some of the trails are tough.
It is hard to believe that Julia could have gotten the directions screwed up if the LDM was in Goldfield, She may have had some difficulty in locating it but I am sure that she would have at least remembered its general location and as such the legend today would reflect that.
There is also the matter of the "Peralta" and "Gonzales" maps which have been quite satisfactory been shown to represent the superstition mountains in the way that Weavers Needle and Four Peaks line up.
Having read Ely's book and part of the Bark notes, I don't think that either of those men were ever close to locating the LDM.
Alan[/quote]



Are you sure Peralta mines are the LDM? Sina Lewis supposedly got directions from Gonzales and she seemed to end up north of the Supers. You are depending on Julia's directions that the LDM is in the supers, but those directions are reported to us by Bark, Ely & Bicknell, who all searched, and all ended up w/o a mine. Not sure those directions sound like much proof where the LDM was.

Shelby

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

"Then about a year ago, someone using the names of Jan & redison & Ray tucker (all I assume to be the same person) started posting a lot of information and pictures I had shared via e-mail with other people (too damn many to track back to their sources) on the Lost Dutchman Website run by Ron Feldman..."

Most people on the site had very strong suspicions concerning the identity of the people who's names Jim mentioned. All were believed to be the same person. Many things that are claimed in the Dutch Hunting community that turn out to be just the opposite of what is being disseminated.

I was told that the person who was stirring that multiple identity pot was asked to quit posting by Ron Feldman. I believe that to be true. That person was known to have told many lies over the years and created, as a result, a number of ex-friends.

"Trusted sources" have often been found to be less than truthful.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

I know what you are saying. I have heard it before as well. I don't know if its true or not. The Jan thing was over before I really got involved. The others had no bearing on me. My issues were mainly with Bill Riley and Mike Garrison.

Whatever happened, I doubt seriously that Jim shot his own dog and burro. Also remember that you were wrong about Jim being a source of a couple of things we discussed.

Either way, I don't care. Its all in the history books now. One thing to keep in mind though, if someone would have been those alter egos, why contact me via email and ask me to pass on a statement about Tom K?

Mike

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Over the years I have been wrong plenty of times. Offering a strong opinion about who your source was, does not make it fact......Just my opinion based on personal experiences over a long period of time.

My opinions were also based on close sources like, Tom Kollenborn, Bob Corbin, Beth Decker and more than a few others. Beyond that, they were based on thorough research.

None of that makes me absolutely right, but it's the best I have to go with after almost 60-years of closely following this hobby. I am aware that almost every newbie that comes down the pike has a better handle on the history, past and present, of the LDM and Superstiton Range, but it's hard to teach this old dog new tricks. :lol:

'Nuff said on the subject.....from my perspective.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Oops!

Make that 53-years. 8O :lol:

Fading Fast Joe

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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by don »

Sorry to hear about the issues regarding the Burro and the Dog Joe.Cant understand why someone would act in that way because of an argument(I presume) on a Forum such as this.Though I recall someone posting on here regarding Jans "death" together with a suggestion that "Jan" should have a place in the LDM "hall of fame" for services rendered.It all seemed rather preposterous at the time......I thought everyone had realised that early on. .But whoever shot your burro and dog seems to be on the road to either prison ..or the assylum.
regards
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by don »

Yeagh I know.....Next time Ill read the post properly. before I comment.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

hey mike...i just read about your dog an burro...

what sick person would do that?
sorry.

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