Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

"After having found the stones, TT let Howe look at them (maybe even photograph them). At the time, Clayton "Charley" Howe was a very well known expert on petroglyphs. It is entirely possible TT sought him out for his expert opinion."

That's a reasonable possiblity. We have the story that the Redlands professor authenticated them, the FBI authenticated them, why not the story about Howe's conclusions???

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

The Redlands Professor is a possibility, but someone should have contacted him prior to his death in 1986, or his widow before she started losing her faculties. As of now, it is only a possibility.

The FBI is a little firmer. Bob Corbin states that an FBI Agent told him personally that it was the FBI's belief that the stone maps were at least 100 years old in the late 1960s. It would be nice to have lab test results, but Agent Fox (FBI Historian) told me that most tests that weren't used as evidence in a trial were routinely destroyed (especially before the digital age).

The Howe/Tumlinson connection is even firmer as we have a picture of Howe and Tumlinson together (although I haven't seen it yet). This possibility stands as of now to be the best expert opinion yet, IF (and that is a big IF) we can tie Howe in to the stones.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I speak to Bob on a regular basis, and it's his opinion that the stones never left Phoenix. The opinion offered by the FBI Agent was not a position held by the agency proper, but by a few people who saw the stones and offered an opinion on them.

It is likely that the opinion was based on the 1847 date on the stones, and had no grounding in a scientific examination.

If the FBI did any kind of official, or unofficial, examination of he maps, let's see the paper trail generated by them and the transfers of the stones. I believe you and Beth Decker tried to get that information some time ago. I didn't believe you would be successful then, and I don't believe anything can be found now. For believers, that won't stop them from making the claim that the FBI authenticated them as around 100 years old.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

Like I said. Agent Fox (who is the current official FBI Historian) told me that it is possible the FBI Lab in DC examined the stones, and since the results were not used in a trial, they would have been destroyed leaving no record. It is just as plausible that they were never examined by the FBI Lab in DC, and the conclusion was just an educated guess. A shame Bob didn't push the issue a bit and get some more detail.

If Agent Fox would have told me that if the Bureau had anything to do with the stones there would be a paper trail (as I originally thought), I would have thrown that story away. He left room for doubt, so I can't.

Just like since Bob didn't press for more specifics, there is a lot of room for conjecture as well.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Since Bob is the closest source to this story, I think it's telling that he believes the Stone Maps are a fraud. He got the statement directly from the agent's mouth, and remains convinced that the maps are a modern-day scam.

Someone else who believes the stones are fakes, is Tom Kollenborn. Those two old timers are pretty well steeped in LDM/Superstition Mountain history and legends. Tom knew many of the players in the Stone Map story.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

All:
It seems possible,given CC Howe's interests and knowledge of native pictographs,petroglyphs and,I would assume rock carvings as well,he may have heard of Tumlinson's rock heads while travelling the northwest and Oregon.Also possible,IMO,for Travis to have contacted him in regards to the stone heads or even the maps.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

I am going to guess that the Charlie Howe that is in the Journal, is not the same man as the photographer. Just another coincidence in a long line. Sorry for the false lead.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by surfferdude »

i think you should go deeper in histrory . look up the first missions in the new country.
and how the priest where trained.i heard they were trained in map making.maybe they
trained others in the skill of map making.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

surfferdude:

Where were they trained,who trained them and why?
Their official duties were to convert,preach and pray.When did the priests of the new world have time for anything else,let alone mapmaking,mining or flying balloons? :roll:

Regards:SH.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Wayne,

Not exactly correct. The Jesuit Fathers were some of the very best cartographers in the world. They made maps for Kings of Europe and the Pope.

While the Jesuit Fathers' primary duties in the New World were to convert the heathens and spread the word of God and the land holdings of Spain, don't forget that they were also highly educated. Many of the Earth Sciences we know today were founded by Jesuit Fathers (Geology, Geography, etc). The Jesuits taught mining at their colleges in Europe. That's how Father Och SJ knew all about mining and refining.

Mexico was divided into Rectorates, and each Rectorate had a Cabeza (head) which was a larger city. At that Cabeza there was a Jesuit College. Those colegios were where the great bulk of the Jesuit Wealth was channeled. What went to the missions, went in the form of Church Vestments and Adornments.

I am at work now and don't have all my resources, but I know Fathers Kino and Pfefferkorn were two Jesuits that made maps of Northern New Spain. Pfefferkorn's Map went straight to the King of Spain. There are several others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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to continue.......

All most people know about the Mission Fathers is from the time they spent AT those missions. What most people don't understand is that there are MANY years of training that go into the making of a Jesuit Priest.

When I first started researching the Order, I had no idea what was involved. Here is how it works in a nutshell:

After a person joins the Jesuit Order with the aspiration to become a Priest, they spend many years in school. During this time they are watched by the brothers and evaluated. If they have the mental and spiritual strength to complete the training, they take their initial vows. After all their training was completed, and they were deemed to be worthy, they professed their final vows and become priests.

I have found that (especially in colonial times) it was about 20 to 25 years between the time they joined the Order and when they were allowed to profess their final vows and become full fledged Jesuit Priests.

They were not allowed to become missionaries until after their final vows were taken. So, even though we know what they did as missionaries, each Jesuit Priest had a specialty they were well trained in.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Thanks Mike:
But I was looking forward to what surfferdude might come up with. :wink:

From A to Z,it seems that the Jesuits were the know-it-all's of their day.
Fr. Quino,for example was a trained mathematician.Probably quite knowledgeable in other subjects as well.From art and architecture to zoology,they pretty much had all bases covered.Strange,even suspicious that some historians would declare preposterous any suggestion that a degree holding pastor would employ his know how for any purpose,other than officially sanctioned and lawful gain of land and souls.
BUUUT......I'm just some hiker out there looking for modern junk.
What do I know?

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Wayne,

Only died-in-the-wool Jesuit Apologist koolaide drinkers will deny that many Jesuits had the same faults as many other men had. They drank, gambled, stole, adulterated, etc.

When you spend time conversing with Jesuit College Professors as I have, you find that the people REALLY in the know not only freely admit to the vices, but are often great sources of new information. When we were debating with Lamar over Jesuit owning of slaves, my scholarly friend at Georgetown University told me about a section of the Catholic Encyclopedia that describes how the Pope had slaves that tended his yacht. This is well documented in a book written by Catholics. HAHAHA

This same man wrote a few books about early Jesuits. He freely admitted in one of his books that the early Jesuit Fathers regularly broke ecclesiastical precepts when it came to getting the job done.

I have my own beliefs about what the Jesuits did and didn't do in colonial times which anybody that has read my writings knows well.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

that should read "fornicated" not "adulterated"

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Mike:
I have no doubt, with the balance of evidence being against the "koolaid" version of Jesuit activities, that what you say is true.Whether or not the Stone Maps can be associated with the Jesuits or Jesuit treasure is debatable,and probably should not be part of Garry's topic.Perhaps,once Azmula's article has been published,he will return to this forum for further discussion.
There also should be no remaining doubt as to Travis Tumlinson being the first modern possessor of the original Stone Maps.In the absence of any supporting documentation or first hand testimony in support of "any" conspiracy theory,I continue to find the story of TT's Queen Creek discovery to be plausible.My own visit to the location and further research into some of what I found there also supports this version.
That TT may have created copies,of the originals,perhaps altered in various ways,is also evident from what has been presented by Garry on his website.Many of these differences,as well as colour and texture variations are also readily apparent when comparing the Stone Map photos,obtained from various sources and published to date.
Perhaps many conflicting oppinions,for and against the age of the stones examined by various experts,can be attributed to this.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by djui5 »

Mike McChesney wrote:that should read "fornicated" not "adulterated"

Mike

Meh, small difference :lol: :lol:
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Garry:
Perhaps you could post the photo of the bottom half of the "treasure chest" side of the Ship Stone.Give us a little more to discuss.
One thing that I have noticed,regarding the H/P stone,which I believe may,along with the Heart Stone,be original,is the presence of deep scratches on the upper surface as well as flaking,etc which mars both surfaces.My suspicion is,that this stone,as well as the "bumper stones" were recycled from the bed of an arrastre.Does anyone else think this to be a possibility?
Here is a photo of an arrastre,built as part of an exhibit but historically accurate for demonstration purposes.It actually has a bed stone which has the same shape as the H/P Stone.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Somehiker wrote:Garry:
Perhaps you could post the photo of the bottom half of the "treasure chest" side of the Ship Stone.Give us a little more to discuss.
One thing that I have noticed,regarding the H/P stone,which I believe may,along with the Heart Stone,be original,is the presence of deep scratches on the upper surface as well as flaking,etc which mars both surfaces.My suspicion is,that this stone,as well as the "bumper stones" were recycled from the bed of an arrastre.Does anyone else think this to be a possibility?
Here is a photo of an arrastre,built as part of an exhibit but historically accurate for demonstration purposes.It actually has a bed stone which has the same shape as the H/P Stone.

Regards:Wayne
Yes, a definite possibility. Below is a photo of the remains of an arrastra near Pinos Altos, NM. As you can see, the floor stones are missing. After recovering the fine gold, these were typically salvaged for two reasons: 1) They make nice patio stones in the back yard; 2) They are great for carving headstones - the Pinos Altos cemetery has a number of good examples, the most recent about ten years old.

Steve
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Steve:
Thanks for the info and photo.
I have had that arrastre photo in my R-files for years,without knowing where it was located.I can now properly title it....Gracias.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by SteveNM »

Wayne, the thought occurred to me that the map stones are described as a sandstone or similar material - usually considered to be a relatively soft rock. The floorstones in an arrastra normally would be a harder material if available.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Steve:
The H/P Stone on display at the SMM is not "sandstone" per se.
It is,I believe,a type of Quartzite,a metamorphic rock often used as a building stone.
The two "Trail" stones on display are,in all probability,of a softer sandstone.
Sandstone would have been a good choice for making copies,using a duplicator.
I would think though,if you were building an arrasre in an area with little suitable hardrock,that you would use whatever was available,and replace the bed stones more often.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by cuzzinjack »

Wayne,

Your idea is ingenious. There is a reason why the Spanish may have used softer rock for the bottom liners of an arrastra; by alternating softer rock with the quartzite, the softer rock becomes worn first, creating “dead-beds”. Rock that was meant to be ground by the drag stones was trapped in the worn areas allowing the grinding to take place more efficiently. The softer rock then becomes “protected” by ore. It would seem that a simple test is in order……for mercury. A microscope should be able to see globules of mercury even if the stones have been previously scrubbed with soap and brush. Either that, or straightforward chemical analysis could be performed.

Dan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Dan:
Thanks for the explanation.It makes sense.
Tom Kollenborn, in an article,mentioned a find of copper ingots,poorly cast,which had been stored in a cave.Not only is copper found in abundance in the area,so is mercury.
Both are used in the old patio process of ore refining.Copper sheet is used as a bed for the amalgam trays/pans.The concentrate is then scraped or squeegeed off the tray.There is a video on U-Tube......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjJg_NWty74
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by cuzzinjack »

Wayne,

The video was incredible......the part with the engine-powered arrastra was just too much; it was better than sci-fi! I worked at a camp job that had an amalgamation drum in the mill. This was a small ball mill about 3 feet in diameter where the concentrate (pyrite and gold from gravity jigs) was put in the mill with mercury. After many hours of turning, the lid was popped off and the slime was washed out with a hose. All that was left was gold amalgam. It was put in a retort which was made out of a piece of pipe about 6" X 18" that had exit tubing running through a water jacket to cool the vapors. When the mercury was cooked off, the top was unscrewed from the retort and a cylinder of sponge gold was dropped out. It really looks like a sponge because it is so porous. The sponge was then smelted into a gold bar, about 100 ounces. The first one was passed around the cook shack at dinner time.

It is intriguing to think that the Peralta Stones might have mercury on them....

Dan
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Another good reason to handle them with latex gloves.Just in case.
Mercury poisoning is serious business.Makes me wonder about T.T. and anyone else who would have handled the originals frequently.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Since the debate seems to have stalled,it might be a good time to toss this item out onto the table.The "A" with the slanted crossbar is not unique.This is a photo of a memorial inscription,dated to approximately 4th century AD,in Rome.
The symbol in the centre is called a "Chi Rho" and is tied to the beginnings of the RC Church,as well as the christogram "IHS"--(In Hoc Signo Vinces) which also is carved on the H/P stone.
Seems possible that whoever was responsible for the stones was also knowledgeable of early RC history IMO.

Regards:SH
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