Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

Another thing you have to keep in mind is that Janie wasn't even born in 1949. She would have been only a few years old at the time Travis was actively pursuing the stones.

While I will leave it to the other person to post their findings, I will say that we now have a third version, and is somewhat of a hybrid of Garry's and mine, and it makes a lot of sense as it answers several questions. My main ones being:

1. If all the stones are a hoax perpetrated by Travis, then why did he spend so much time and money on about a dozen trips from Hood River, Oregon to Apache Junction trying to chase down the stone maps? It makes absolutely ZERO sense.

2. Close or not, why would he let his Uncle Robert spend years of his life and a lot of his meager pension making several trips from Oregon to Arizona chasing down the stones?

3. Why in 12 years of possession, did he NEVER once attempt to sell the stones?

4. Why in 12 years of possession did he never attempt to publicize them?

To me, a complete hoax does not make any sense at all. Travis' actions are not those of someone perpetrating a hoax.

Before falling completely into the hoax assumption, those questions HAVE to be answered, because without adequate explanations, the hoax makes no sense.

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

"If" seems like pure speculation to me. Question is; How do you know that each of your questions is factual history of what took place? How do you know that Travis never tried to sell the Stone Maps? There is some evidence that selling them was something he was contemplating.

Take care,

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

also,

To continue with the Janie T track, she would not have any personal knowledge of anything to do with either the finding or carving of the stones in 1949. She was also so young that the only knowledge she would have is mostly from relatives. That also might be a good reason for her story to change. The book is a good reason as well.

Reread the Brower and Love Tumlinson investigation letters. More than one person had sat with Travis and tried to work out the stones. Travis had told one of them that if he could find the place in the mountains that matched the big hole (bottom trail stone) that he would be a millionaire. If he had carved all the stones, then all those conversations would have been nothing but insanity.

"The Truth Will Out"

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

Mike,

"If" seems like pure speculation to me. Question is; How do you know that each of your questions is factual history of what took place? How do you know that Travis never tried to sell the Stone Maps? There is some evidence that selling them was something he was contemplating.

Take care,

Joe

Come on Joe,

I have read and reread every piece of evidence several times. The only thing that even remotely comes close is Robert's statement that Travis would be crazy to sell the stones. Remember the facts of the interview:

Either Love or Brower told him that he represented people that now owned the stones that were once owned by Travis. Since he did not know that Travis had died, he could only have assumed that Travis had sold the stones to Peck/Mitchell. Hence his statement. Read those letters closely.

Not one person has EVER stated that Travis attempted to sell them the stones.

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We also know that Travis made many trips to the Supers to chase down the stone maps because Travis had some good friends in AJ (Charlie Miller being one). Charlie was also the person that helped Travis clean the stones right after he found them (remember the part about him referring to the little roots still growing out of the grooves).

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We also know that Robert had the stones for several years both from the Peck Investigators and from his landlord Dr. Gene Davis, who was Robert's hunting partner and partial sponsor. Garry is in agreement with me that the Davis timeline and story is accurate.

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If he had wanted, he could just as easily gotten that Life Magazine Article if he had wanted. During the 1950s, Cowboy Stories and Treasure Hunting Madness was in full swing. Something like the stone maps would have meant instant publicity and money for Travis. Although we can't prove unequivocally that he did not shop the story, I can say that beyond any reasonable doubt, if he HAD shopped it, there would have been no problem selling the article. No such article was ever sold or published.

Keep trying Joe.

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

So now answer the questions!

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

I believe (if I am not mistaken) that Al Reser was also friendly with Travis.

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

I wonder if the possibility exists that one or more of the "stone maps" were truly discovered somewhere and that Travis only created one or two of the others for another purpose - be it to confuse/mislead other treasure hunters, amusement or other reason.

If that were the case, what Jane told Mike, Larry and Garry isn't necessarily a lie to any of them.

*shrug*

Mike

[Mrs. Oroblanco]

All the questions that have been asked, brings to mind a hoaxster (sp) of a grand scale (for the times).

Crazy Jake - while bilking lots and lots of money from the wealthy - always kept camps, and outfits, and supplies - and went out with all his potential "investors" on several trips.

Its not too hard to think that a person might not only make trips - but, to make sure that others could SEE that they were making an "effort" to find treasure.

How do we know what Travis was actually doing in the mountains? A diary - notes, findings, pictures? A supposed "manuscript" that only certain people have seen?

To the question of why he didn't sell them, you don't sell a potential golden goose, whether it is a hoax or a potential treasure. You would think that Travis' wife knew whether or not they were real - and, obviously, as soon as Travis was gone - so were the stones.

Beth

[Somehiker]

Garry:
You are certainly presenting much to think about.Taken at face value,he evidence seems to eliminate all of the others who have been suspected or promoted as having carved the "Tumlinson" Maps.

While the carvings on the chimney may have been inconclusive,other than the signature and self portrait,this "ship" stone appears to display all of the talent and attention to detail shown on the more famous and apparently mislabelled "Peralta Stone Maps".

The more recent testimony from Janie,but not the most recent,along with the proof that Travis was certainly capable of carving the Stone Maps would also support previous claims that he added the zeros to the back of the Heart stone.It is likely that he also carved the Latin Heart(ie.-the fifth stone) and perhaps even the Stone Crosses as well as the copies of his original stones.

Regards:SH.

[Cubfan64]

I believe this has been asked and maybe even answered several times in the past, but I can't find the answer right now, so I'm asking it again. What is the timeframe of the EARLIEST KNOWN photograph of the Priest/Horse stone?

[Mike McChesney]

Beth,

Are you REALLY lumping Travis Tumlinson in with the likes of Crazy Jake? That might be a bit of a mistake there.

Cubfan,

Unless Janie or some other relative has a picture older, the pics from the Life Magazine Article of 1964 are the oldest.

Mike

[Cubfan64]

Beth,

Are you REALLY lumping Travis Tumlinson in with the likes of Crazy Jake? That might be a bit of a mistake there.

Cubfan,

Unless Janie or some other relative has a picture older, the pics from the Life Magazine Article of 1964 are the oldest.

Mike

I think the Jake analogy is a bit of a stretch too Beth albeit I understand the line of thought. One thing I always found interesting is that if it's true Jake continued searching out in the mountains even after being released from prison, to me that implies the possibility that he DID believe there was something out there and defrauded people in order to get the funds to keep looking - perhaps that's how he justified his fraud to himself?

Mike - does it strike you odd at all that the only "old" photo we've seen of the stone maps are the ones on the bumper of the car and those are only the trail maps?

I suppose it could easily be explained by the belief that any other photos pre "Life Magazine" just never made it into the public venue and we got lucky with the bumper shot, but I can't help wonder if the Priest/Horse stone was manufactured by Travis at a later time to divert attention away from the trail maps. It's interesting to me that the "ship" stone that Travis did carve was carved on both sides - kinda like the Priest/Horse stone no?

[Mrs. Oroblanco]

I am not "lumping" Travis with Crazy Jake.

I am replying to the statement you made that there is no reason for Travis to have gone up into the hills to look for treasure - and sent his relative to do similar things.
Your statement, Mike, was that is made O (zero) sense.

My point is that - that is not true - if a person was intent on perpetuating a hoax, there is definitely a reason why someone might jump through all those hoops. Simple.
And, Crazy Jake was no dummy.

Not to mention, just in passing, that it is strange that nobody can track Travis Tumlinson as a police officer or any of his medical records. Was there another name he went by?

Beth

Of course, it is not proof that he did any of it - just the fact that, assuming that he would have no reason to go looking - is not a very good arguement against fraud.

[Mike McChesney]

I am not "lumping" Travis with Crazy Jake.

I am replying to the statement you made that there is no reason for Travis to have gone up into the hills to look for treasure - and sent his relative to do similar things.
Your statement, Mike, was that is made O (zero) sense.

My point is that - that is not true - if a person was intent on perpetuating a hoax, there is definitely a reason why someone might jump through all those hoops. Simple.
And, Crazy Jake was no dummy.

Not to mention, just in passing, that it is strange that nobody can track Travis Tumlinson as a police officer or any of his medical records. Was there another name he went by?

Beth

Of course, it is not proof that he did any of it - just the fact that, assuming that he would have no reason to go looking - is not a very good arguement against fraud.

Beth,

My quote is accurate. He would have had ZERO reason to do that. When you take into account what we know. Travis never attempted to sell the stones to ANYBODY! Travis never tried getting anybody to invest in his treasure hunting! If either of the two would have happened, somebody would have found it out by now. Peck's Investigators spoke to several people that knew Travis well. Bob Bair said that he and Travis had planned on going to the Supers together, but Travis died before they could go. Bob Schultz and Travis talked about solving the stones many times, but not once did any of the interviewees say that Travis had asked them for one penny. Not once in the next 46 years (until now) has ANYBODY come forward and said that Travis had asked them for a cent or had tried to sell them the stones. Not a single person. Not one of his relatives has said Travis asked them for a penny to hunt treasure either.

If there was a possibility that he had tried to sell the stones or that he had tried to get monetary support for his treasure hunting, then you may have had a leg to stand on with your theory, but such is not the case.

Like we say down South: ""IF" frogs had pillows on their butts, they wouldn't scratch their a$$es every time they jumped." "IF" a person was perpetrating a hoax......... there is absolutely ZERO evidence to show that Travis had tried to perpetrate any hoax.

Before jumping off the tangent bridge, wait a bit until Azmula's Article in The SMHS Journal comes out. Since it is his information, I will leave it at that.

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

[Beth,

My quote is accurate. He would have had ZERO reason to do that. When you take into account what we know. Travis never attempted to sell the stones to ANYBODY! Travis never tried getting anybody to invest in his treasure hunting! If either of the two would have happened, somebody would have found it out by now. Peck's Investigators spoke to several people that knew Travis well. Bob Bair said that he and Travis had planned on going to the Supers together, but Travis died before they could go. Bob Schultz and Travis talked about solving the stones many times, but not once did any of the interviewees say that Travis had asked them for one penny. Not once in the next 46 years (until now) has ANYBODY come forward and said that Travis had asked them for a cent or had tried to sell them the stones. Not a single person. Not one of his relatives has said Travis asked them for a penny to hunt treasure either.

If there was a possibility that he had tried to sell the stones or that he had tried to get monetary support for his treasure hunting, then you may have had a leg to stand on with your theory, but such is not the case.

Like we say down South: ""IF" frogs had pillows on their butts, they wouldn't scratch their a$$es every time they jumped." "IF" a person was perpetrating a hoax......... There is absolutely ZERO evidence to show that Travis had tried to perpetrate any hoax.

Before jumping off the tangent bridge, wait a bit until Azmula's Article in The SMHS Journal comes out. Since it is his information, I will leave it at that.

Mike]

You are a little off base on this one. We don't really "know" the answers to any of your questions, or speculative conclusions. These kinds of things go on behind closed doors all the time. They may never see the light of day.

There are people who Jake defrauded out of big money who never reported it. One well known Arizona businessman who falls into that category, was a fellow who's initials are E.B. If you made the Rendezvous' you might have heard the story......otherwise, it's likely you are in the dark.

Why don't they report such things......Because they are embarrassed because they fell for such a fraud. Others don't want their names attached to anything that has "LDM" as part of the story. IMHO, you are making way too many "absolute" conclusions on very thin evidence.

Because you have heard the story from many different sources over the years, does not make it a "fact". As you very well know, in the treasure hunting world, many old salts keep repeating stories they have heard from others for eons. Eventually they come to believe them completely.

In many cases, it becomes a personal story with the person telling the story inserting themselves into the yarn. I call it the "Hell, I Was There" syndrome. Elmer Keith. It is rampant in LDM circles. Herman Petrasch had it bad, but he was hardly a solitary case.

Now it's possible I'm all wrong here, but I have cited some well know cases. In addition to that, I believe there will soon be some very public refutation of some well trusted "facts" by a very well known "historian".

Because someone who is a trusted source writes or tells a story, does not make it a fact, no matter how many times it's repeated.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

"Travis never attempted to sell the stones to ANYBODY! Travis never tried getting anybody to invest in his treasure hunting! If either of the two would have happened, somebody would have found it out by now."
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I believe that Bob Tumlinson wrote that Travis was "crazy to sell his maps". In this case, I take "crazy" to mean, intensely enthusiastic. It would seem that "someone" at least hinted that Travis was interested in selling the stones.

In addition to that there is Mel Brower's statement concerning the zero's that Travis had added to the heart stone:
"I rather suspect he did this to further entice financial assistance."

That at least suggests that there may have been some efforts to generate money from the Stone Maps by Travis. The "somebody"(s) you speak of seems to "have found it out".

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Just an observation here, that it is possible to read more into a statement than is truly there. For instance, that statement of "crazy to sell" could be taken as either in the sense of why would you sell something so rare and valuable, or as in very enthusiastic to sell.

For another instance, that statement Mike got in an EM which is from a person believed to be Jane Tumlinson, quote

you're right he wasn't perpetrating a hoax

..is not the same thing as saying that he did not carve the stones. She could be saying the truth in both instances; if he carved the stones, but not in an attempt to perpetrate a hoax, then both statements are truthful.

Roy

[Cubfan64]

Mike,

"Travis never attempted to sell the stones to ANYBODY! Travis never tried getting anybody to invest in his treasure hunting! If either of the two would have happened, somebody would have found it out by now."
____________________________________

I believe that Bob Tumlinson wrote that Travis was "crazy to sell his maps". In this case, I take "crazy" to mean, intensely enthusiastic. It would seem that "someone" at least hinted that Travis was interested in selling the stones.

In addition to that there is Mel Brower's statement concerning the zero's that Travis had added to the heart stone:
"I rather suspect he did this to further entice financial assistance."

That at least suggests that there may have been some efforts to generate money from the Stone Maps by Travis. The "somebody"(s) you speak of seems to "have found it out".

Take care,

Joe

Roy, I interpretted the "crazy" statement the same way you did - not to say we both may be wrong . Also, I completely agree and mentioned earlier too that Janie's statement can be interpretted in such a way that it's not contradictory.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy and Paul,

[That at least suggests that there may have been some efforts to generate money from the Stone Maps by Travis. The "somebody"(s) you speak of seems to "have found it out".]

I am aware that the statements could be read in different ways. I thought I covered that in my own statement. My statement was not absolute, Mike's were.

Take care,

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

Okay,

First, let's look at Bob Tumlinson:

How much faith can we put in anything he says? He told Brower and Love different stories regarding the finding of the stones (one with just Travis and one including himself). Peck's investigators both concluded that Bob had been less than honest with them on several subjects. He was trying to get Peck to support him on a treasure hunting venture. He was doing everything y'all are accusing Travis of doing, but you all seem to live and breathe on his word rather than that of Travis about whom it has never been proven he tried to sell the stones or get money from anybody for hunting a treasure.

Gee Joe, even though some people never admitted that Jake took money from them, how do we know that he did? Over the years, many people have talked about it. No such thing for Travis.

See Joe, you seem very quick to jump on Travis Tumlinson when it supports your view, but anything opposing, you look at through jaded glasses.

Let's take a look at Bob Ts statement.

Step back for a minute and look at what evidence we have......HONESTLY!

Peck had Travis thoroughly researched. His investigators talked to several people that knew Travis and Alleen well. Nobody called them liars or said that they had been hit up for thunting money, or that Travis had tried to sell them the stones. As a matter of fact, Lois Feltner (Janie's Aunt) told Love that Bob Tumlinson had asked Travis for money to go to Arizona, and when Travis refused, a deep rift had formed between them. Still want to believe Bob T?

Look at Bob's "crazy" statement for a second. He was speaking to a private investigator in the course of an interview. He says that and the interviewer just let it drop and didn't ask if he knew to whom Travis had tried to sell the stones? No, if that was what Bob meant, then the interviewer would have asked many follow up questions. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense in any context other than Bob thinking Travis had sold the stones to Mitchell/Peck and said that he was crazy to sell those stones. You can't parse three or four words out of an entire interview. Take the whole thing in context.

I still say just wait for Azmula's Story in The SMHS Journal.

Mike

[Cubfan64]

Joe, not trying to be a pain in the rear here, but I interpretted your statement of...

I believe that Bob Tumlinson wrote that Travis was "crazy to sell his maps". In this case, I take "crazy" to mean, intensely enthusiastic. It would seem that "someone" at least hinted that Travis was interested in selling the stones.

as being an "absolute" statement. If I misinterpretted that I apologize.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion as I don't really have much to add to the topic. I'm interested in it from a curiosity standpoint, but not really invested enough to be well versed on the history involved.

I have a feeling Azmula's article may only muddy the waters even more so, but that seems to be the case with "all things Dutchman/Superstitions"

[Joe Ribaudo]

You guys are probably right. I was just trying to inject some other ideas or possibilities into the discussion.

Personally, I will wait for Garry to get through his material. Azmula reminds me too much of Aurum, when someone questioned his "facts".

I will also bow out.

Take care,

Joe

[Mrs. Oroblanco]

Okay,

First, let's look at Bob Tumlinson:

How much faith can we put in anything he says? He told Brower and Love different stories regarding the finding of the stones

Now, how is that different from what we are discussing about Janie?

Beth

[Oroblanco]

Joe, no need to bow out on my account, or you Paul. I am not saying that Tumlinson didn't make some effort to sell the stones, only that what we are working with is words and they can be taken more than one way.

I look forward to reading more, though I don't think we will ever know the 'truth' for an absolute, undeniable fact. Maybe Tumlinson only created some of the stones too, so these statements by Jane would again be correct but in both ways in that case. Hopefully between Garry's information and Azmula's upcoming article, more light will be shed.

Roy

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy,

I just don't see where this conversation can go from here. We have all stated our opinions, and that's really all anyone has. None of us have any idea who Travis actually knew or what transpired.

I try to write in possibilities, much like you do, but with a lot less success. I look forward to what everyone has to say, just get tired of all the ultimate authorities. I may be viewed as portraying that very image myself, but if that's true, there's only room for one ultimate authority.

Don't want to turn this into some kind of mental pissing match.

I have not forgotten about Custer, just need to get some personal issues ironed out. What's your favorite book on the subject? I think there are thousands.......well, at least hundreds.

Carolyn and I are looking forward to seeing you and Beth again at this year's Rendezvous. I hope to be able to spend some more time with my old friends than I have at past events. Hardly got to sit down with Paul and Connie at all. After this year, I believe we may have to take Paul's advice and Motel it.

Take care,

Joe