Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Mrs. Oroblanco
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mrs. Oroblanco »

Somehiker,

That is an interesting point. Chi Rho is actually Greek, (a Greek manufactured symbol),
which was put together to mean "Christogram". (a symbol for Christ), that was used for vestments and such. It was used along with INRI and IHS (which are also christograms meaning Christ).

However, the Roman Catholic Church did not exist, as such, in 4th century. The symbol was used by Greeks, Jews etc. But, I would hesitate to ascertain that whomever carved it was knowledgeable about Roman Catholicism - Christianity of different sources, maybe, but not specifically Roman Catholic.

I'm sure your history knowledge could go back to Byzantine, you could note that some Byzantine coins have that symbol.

But, the problem I see - that I cannot explain, is, why would Tumlinson use the slanted A in his KNOWN carvings, and you don't think it is possible for him to do the same to the Peralta Stones?

Beth
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

What the heck, I'll throw it out there again
Perhaps Travis Tumlinson Did Not carve the stone tablets. :mrgreen:
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Beth:
To clarify,when I said "tied to the beginnings of the RC Church",I was not talking about as such.I was referring to the time of Emperor Constantine the Great and the legalization of Christianity as a religion in Rome and the empire.It was he who adopted the Chi Rho as his symbol after the Battle of Milvian Bridge and applied it to his labarum.
As a religion,Christianity has since been represented by many branches,and you are correct in pointing out that both the Chi Rho and IHS christogram have been adopted by other groups for use on vestments,retablos,reliquaries,etc.
Just saying it does appear to me that whoever laid out the Stone Maps had some knowledge of Christian history,beyond what is taught in sunday school.He also utilized some of this in the artwork.
So far,the only carving that can be positively attributed to Travis is the carvings on the chimney,which he signed with his name.In this example of his work,the "A" in Travis has no slant.If he carved the ship stone,which by the way has a second ship in a perspective view,and does not appear,in any way,to be a "map",he may have been copying what he had already seen on the H/P stone.These distinctive A's appear only in the word "SANTAFE". WHY?
For that answer,we do not have to go as far back as the Byzantines.Or even the Classical Greeks.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Beth,

Just to bring the conversation back into more modern times, it seems interesting that there is a connection between Chi Rho and Wake Forest. Shades of Calalus.....or Ben Davis. 8O

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
I'm sure Ben is already hard at work trying to make it fit,in his own way.So would any with theories involving Templars or Masons,I would guess.They are all welcome of course,to expound on their theories if topical.MY main interest lies in the collective symbolism used for the stones,what they mean,and whether or not Tumlinson would have made use of such in any other carvings.So far we have a possible "A",but little else from what I can discern.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

I have never noticed any markings on the Stone Maps, that make a direct connection to anything "Jesuit". Care to elaborate?

Thanks,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
Someone asked a while back,can't remember who,if the Stone Maps bore some kind of signature so as to identify the maker.
While the Trail Maps may or may not have such a "sigla" hidden within the carving,I believe the carving of the Priest does.
A subject of older discussions on the Priest of the H/P stone centred around what many presumed to be a "fang" protruding from the Priest's mouth.
It is easy to see why,especially when perusing the Life Magazine photo,many thought "fang", which also may have reinforced the perception of the figure as a "witch" and perhaps nefarious.The extra groove,at right angles to the mouth line does seem unnecessary to my way of thinking.Unless it was required to create the letter "H" of "IHS".
Such "hidden signatures" have been used by artists since the renaissance and are now being used to authenticate their works.But,the presence of "IHS" on the stone does not necessarily mean the person who carved the christogram can be proven to have been Jesuit,or even Catholic.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

I have finally gotten around to preparing a comparison between the upper case lettering on the Treasure Chest Stone that Travis carved and the lettering on the Horse/Witch Stone.

This exercise has a very narrow focus in that it is only intended to address the possible Travis Tumlinson involvement with the Peralta Stone Carvings.

I have posted the comparison study on the LDM Documents site under the Peralta Stone Map Story and The Travis Tumlinson Story link. I have broken the comparison into three pdf documents.

Background and Methodology
Comparison Tables
Personal Analysis

I have also included the full picture of the Treasure Chest Stone.

Enjoy OR NOT :)

Garry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Nicely done Garry.
Plenty of grist for the mill and sure to generate further interest in both Tumlinson and the Stones.Further comparisons with samples of Tumlinson's handwriting/block printing might be worthwhile as well.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

I've already had an error pointed out and I suspect more will be found. So much for my slanted letter analysis!

I'll probably wait awhile until more corrections come in and then do a Revison A.

Garry :oops:
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Have to agree with Wayne. That's a great job!

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Gary:
I could be wrong,but now that you have posted a full view of the Treasure Chest stone,it appears to be a much larger stone,with a different profile than the stone on which the Ships are carved.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

SH,

I assume you are questioning whether the Treasure Chest Stone is different than the Galleon Stone?

Nope, it is the same stone, just a different side.

Garry
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Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Very Nice Garry.

It doesn't place me firmly one way or another. While the "G"s and the "M"s are almost identical, the "O"s are very different and many of the letters (D,R,P) have serifs on the known Tumlinson Carved Stone that do not appear on either of the two other exemplars. The "G" shows the same serifs on all exemplars.

It is very possible that Travis carved the H/P Stone. Too bad there is no lettering on the map stones or the heart insert! HAHAHA

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Gary:
Thanks for the clarification.

Mike:
"It is very possible that Travis carved the H/P Stone. Too bad there is no lettering on the map stones or the heart insert! HAHAHA"

Are you forgetting the "D",the "R" and of course,the "DON",which has the same "O" as the H/P stone ....HEHEHE.
Maybe the "VIE" as well,where the eye of the horse is possibly a lower case "E" ?
None of the spanish on the Ships/T-Chest stone is misspelled from what I can see.
Tumlinson's "D's" are fat on the bottom/narrower at the top,whereas the "D's" of the H/P stone are wider at the top.
....From your photo,the Horse seems to have grown a pair ;).

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

This cropped photo was sent to me by Joe Ribaudo and its source is a CD that Joe got from Steve Decker of the Mining Museum Foundation. The photo caused me to question my slanted letter analysis. The tilt of the D doesn’t appear nearly as pronounced as my table image. Different Stone? :lol:

Image

Mike,

I assume the lines you are referring to a serif on the Treasure Chest Stone are the short lines extending past the vertical element of the letter. You identified the D, R, and P as letters exhibiting that feature. I know the photo of the Treasure Chest Stone is not the best for picking out detail and I have to use my imagination to see anything on the R and P Letter. I’m not saying the lines aren’t there it’s just that I’m not comfortable making any kind of definitive judgment. Of course the serif is obvious on the Ds.

The thing that immediately jumped out at me from the photo Joe sent was the serifs on the D from DEL RIO. I mentioned in my analysis that I could imagine something there, but again I just wasn’t sure. I don’t know why they appear more pronounced on Joe’s photo? I’m anxious to revisit the D in DE SANTA FE on Joe’s CD to see if it is something similar. I only have the image I posted above right now.

You spoke of no lettering on the Trail Maps and I wanted to throw something out regarding the symbol on the handle of the dagger. Looks like a letter D with serifs to me. :)

There are numbers on all of the stones and someone might take a look at then to see if anything pops up. :roll:

Garry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

P. S.

Now, Mike has me imagining things. I'm also anxious to review the R and P on Decker's CD. :D

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Good Morning Garry,

I mailed it out Friday. You should have it no later than Wed.

I have blown up the pictures to around 400% and they are still pretty clear. I use Picasa 3, but I imagine any program will have the same results.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

allow me to place this link in here...notice, if you enlarge the map...that the apache migration route passed the mountain where the stones were found.

just to show other peoples had used this route.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

pip,

Your link is.....missing. :lol:

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

:oops:
http://interstice.us/apachestelltheirst ... -early.htm

sorry..is it monday?
this migration route is the same basic route the padre's would use to get to sante fe...only they turned east at the gila.
at the top of this route...somewhere north of florence...before kearny or superior is a vista...a small place of worship for travelers.

still looking...but it is awful close to where the stone maps were found...imo...
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

It’s been awhile since anyone posted anything regarding Travis Tumlinson’s involvement with the Stone Maps and I personally put things on hold until the article by Azmula was published in the SMJ. I wanted to see what additional documentation might be forthcoming before proceeding.

Azmula’s Part 1 article is now available, and apparently there will be an additional article(s) to follow and we will have to wait for the final version of his story. Hopefully some of you have already read Part 1. If a person has any serious interest, in the history of the Stone Maps, they should probably make an effort to obtain the Journal.

I was interested in the three “new” documents that Azmula added to the story. He published three e-mails from Travis Tumlinson’s family in Texas. He did a nice job of locating and initiating a response from the family and I applaud the fact that he shared their e-mails with only a small amount of editing. Having been involved in researching the history of the Stone Maps, everything the family shared with Azmula generally matches what we have previously seen.

Below is a short excerpt quoted from one of the descendants of Travis’s sister Gladys.

These "stone maps" are supposedly maps to the "Lost Dutchman Mine" somewhere in Arizona/New Mexico/northern Mexico, depending on who you ask. In our immediate family they're well-known to be fake (Grandma told everyone the story), but you can't convince those who are avid treasure hunters and believers, determined to discover this lost treasure so don't waste your time trying to argue with them.

Just tell them the truth, then drop it. I tried once with one of them. Never again..
..

While this revelation may not be new it is very poignant. This version comes from another branch of the family other than the individuals we are in contact with. This branch is descended from Peter and Gladys Tumlinson.

For the believers, there is certainly no danger that this type of information will cause the story to go away. For the rest of us, the what, why, where, when and how will retain our interest.

The Stone Maps will certainly outlive all of us! :)

There is still a lot to digest and research within the article and maybe some additional pieces of the puzzle will fall into place.

Garry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

Garry,

I need to re-read Azmula's article once again, but I'm having trouble trying to determine exactly what his general conclusions are as to the origination of the Stone Maps.

It could be that I'm just not thinking it through correctly, but I feel like the author is pretty convinced that the Horse/Priest stone was manufactured by Travis Tumlinson, probably by using a set of handwritten "notes" passed down to him by "Peg Leg." It also appears that his belief is that the Trail map stones were created by jesuits and placed face side down as floor stones in a mission in Arizpe where they were found by the Franciscans at one point when they were renovating.

I'm not clear where the heart insert stone fits into the story, and to me the implication is that the Horse/Priest stone could very well have absolutely nothing to do with the Trail stones.

Am I interpreting it correctly, or do other folks have a different opinion as to what the conclusion being presented is?

Like I said, I need to re-read it at least one more time and make some notes, but I'm just not getting a clear picture.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Paul,

You’re way ahead of me and I suspect you are generally headed in the right direction. If we knew where the story was going there wouldn’t be much point in Part 2. :)

My focus is the e-mails and the new information, where the family states that Travis carved the maps in Cuero. (I had assumed Wilson County and/or Hood River) This may provide a foothold for developing a timeline and a handle on when Travis was doing the carving. I know that in Travis’s manuscript, he says he found the maps in 1949 and we might make a case that they showed up in Arizona by 1952 but I guess he could have done the carving much earlier. While the e-mails identify only Gladys as an eye witness to the carving there would have been other individuals, some still living, who witnessed Travis making the maps also.

While reading through the article the first time something did strike me. Although it is nothing important, it was kind of an interesting correlation.

I worked with Larry Webb on the Stone maps for several years and his background, experiences and interpretations seem to closely mirror those of Azmula.

Larry was a long time believer in the authenticity of the stone maps. [Azmula also]

Larry spent time with boots on the ground in the Superstitions [Azmula also]

Larry believed that Travis received the Stone maps via his Grandfather “Pegleg” [Azmula also?]

Larry made contact with the family of Travis (his daughter Janie). [Azmula also contacted Family]

Larry was hoping to turn up some additional information that might aid in his search. [Azmula also]

Larry was initially disappointed when the family shared the story that Travis carved the maps. [This may or may not reflect Azmula’s reaction but it would be in keeping with his history]

Larry could not accept the family story, although it did give him pause. [Azmula also?]

Larry passed the story on it was told to him. [Azmula also]
I have often thought how easy it would have been for Larry to bury the story but to his credit, he passed it on exactly as it was told to him. Azmula could have buried it also but again he has passed it on in the exact words of the family. I certainly thank them both.
Larry did yield on the possibility that Travis may have created the horse/witch map. [Azmula also?]

Larry could not give up on the authenticity of the Trial Map stones. [Azmula also?]

Larry believed the family was mistaken in portions of their story. [Azmula also?]

This is simply the way Azmula’s story struck me and I apologize if I’m off base.

Garry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

As I have mentioned many times, I never put any faith in the authenticity of the Horse/Priest stone.

"Larry could not give up on the authenticity of the Trial Map stones. [Azmula also?]"

I would agree with both men. There is no doubt in my mind that the trail maps are of a specific area of the Superstitions, to the exclusion of all other places. That being said, there is no way that Travis could have crafted them without help from someone who knew the mountains like their back yard.

It's really very simple.........Topography. 8O

Take care,

Joe
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