Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

I haven't seen nor heard of any photographs of the Latin Heart. The two or three people who might know for certain are Jim Hatt, Joe R, and maybe Clay Worst.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
Thanks for your reply,which clarifies what you meant by "accurate" in reference to the Heart Stone replica in your possession.As far as I know,there are a number of replicas in private hands,made from moulds by Jim Hatt.Jim has also used photographs of his replicas of both the Latin Heart and Bilbrey Stone Crosses for articles and posted these photos online as well.Most of these replicas have been gifted to friends,which is how I came to have a set of my own.As I understand it,Jim made the patterns for the moulds using photographs,tracings and measurements taken from the originals by the finders or friends of the finders.
The moulds were made using liquid latex and the replicas are of plaster of paris,painted a buff colour by hand.
At the end of a conversation with Jim about these replicas,their history and the poor condition of the moulds themselves(which I assume have to be stretched and twisted to remove the castings),he took them down from the wall over his desk and handed them to me,insisting I take them (over my objection that they were his personal and only remaining unsold or un-gifted set).He has asked for nothing in return,other than a handshake.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

I have never seen the original Latin Heart, Stone Crosses or any original photos of them. Knowing the history of Michael Bilbrey, I would not trust anything that came through his hands. If I were interested in finding photos of the originals, I would start with Greg Davis, Tom Kollenborn and the Museum.

I have seen Jim Hatt defending Bilbrey, and supporting the authenticity of the crosses and the Latin Heart. Others have also jumped on that particular bandwagon, but the fact that the original "artifacts" have been destroyed, or are no longer available creates a huge red flag for me personally.

I know that the replicas have been offered for sale on eBay in the past. I also know that Bilbrey tried to sell his original crosses to a number of people in the Dutch hunting community. At the same time, he resisted having them examined by any experts. As I heard the story, he could find no buyers......for his price, and eventually took a ball-peen hammer to them. 8O :roll:

The fact? that these "artifacts" can be tied into the Stone Maps, as well as landmarks and evidence in the range is less than convincing. Many clues and bits of "evidence" found in the Superstitions have been created by people who are still alive today.

If someone were going to "create" a fraud, such as the Stone Maps, they would use locations well known to them, as well as existing legends to carve their maps. IMHO, that is why the Stone Maps match existing topography so well, as well as existing man made and natural formations. That would include trails, natural caves, old mines, prospect holes and monuments.

Some people, like me, will follow these maps and stories for years. Those who keep an open mind will realize that the journey was their destination all along. The adventures, friends and memories you accumulate along the way are a treasure in and of themselves.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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I see little wrong with defending a belief in someone or something.I do not believe that Jim has ever defended Bilbrey's actions as a snake oil salesman.No-one has,to my knowledge.Nor will I.What has been defended is the known history of his earlier activities as a Dutchunter and the possibility that the Crosses are related to the Stone Maps.Having such a find examined by experts, where such an object would fall under the antiquities statute,would likely mean confiscation and possible charges for the finder.Bilbrey probably was aware of this,as others are.In retrospect he would have been better off claiming that he made them himself and continuing his search as a hobby.
That photographs of both of Bilbrey's Stone Crosses and of the Latin Heart exist is,to me,not just an assumption.On the other hand,that they may not be part of the SMM collection, would be a guess,on my part.While it may be true that Bilbrey tried to raise cash by offering the original Stone Crosses for sale,apparently he valued them too highly to let them go at a discount price that would have left him without sufficient funds to carry on with his search.Had he sold them to someone well known in the community,and well respected,their authenticity might be less in doubt.While the smashed to pieces end of the Latin Heart is,in all likelyhood true,I do not believe the same occurred to Bilbrey's crosses.

Regards:SH.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

I don't disagree with your statement. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with offering an opposing opinion either. If you and Jim are able to compartmentalize Bilbrey the "snake oil salesman" from Bilbrey the finder of important artifacts in the Superstition Mountains, more power to you.

Someone who is able to sell phoney "cures" for cancer, to people in the direst need, won't receive one ounce of any benefit of the doubt from me. From what I have seen, those same people have no problem throwing stones at what we do for the elderly.

The fact is, the truth about Bilbrey does not conform with Jim's judgement about the authenticity of the crosses. That being the case, he does not like the man's record being a public part of any discussion concerning the "artifacts".

That being said, you both have every right to your opinions. This is the place to voice them, as Jim won't allow such a discussion to take place on his forum.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Gentlemen,

The fact? that these "artifacts" can be tied into the Stone Maps, as well as landmarks and evidence in the range is less than convincing. Many clues and bits of "evidence" found in the Superstitions have been created by people who are still alive today.

If someone were going to "create" a fraud, such as the Stone Maps, they would use locations well known to them, as well as existing legends to carve their maps. IMHO, that is why the Stone Maps match existing topography so well, as well as existing man made and natural formations. That would include trails, natural caves, old mines, prospect holes and monuments.
Joe,

If Tumlinson created the Stone Maps, then why would he use an area he did not know that well (Superstitions)? Why didn't he create them to apply to somewhere in Texas? Oregon? He didn't start spending any appreciable time in the Supers until AFTER he "found" the stones.

Just another thought that came to mind this morning.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Perhaps because of his friends in the Junction.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

So now, Charlie Miller, Al Reser and others were involved as well?

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
Good research,fieldwork and open minded discussion is what brings us ever closer to the truth.The "no stone left unturned" idiom applies,rather than any attempt to compartmentalize ,even if a stone or two came from under the outhouse.If only we had the Library of Alexandria,or the thousands of Mayan Codex Folds to study today.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

Here is why I doubt that;

You yourself have acknowledged that the stone maps were made by someone that had a very intimate knowledge of the Supers. Most of the marked places on the stones correspond with known places in the mountains. At best, Tumlinson would have had only a very shallow knowledge of those mountains prior to 1950.

It seems obvious that you heard from (or know someone that heard from) Charlie Miller regarding TT's altering the stones. TT would not have needed to alter anything if he had hoaxed them.

But I digress. Since TT would not have had a very in depth knowledge of the Supers at the time the stone maps were made (if he made them), then he would have ABSOLUTELY needed the assistance of someone from the area that would have been very knowledgeable about the mountains. Now, you used to say that you believed Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia made the maps. Are you trying to tie TT in with them, or has your opinion changed?

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Mike,

There are many reasons as to why the Stones could be a fraud, that have nothing to do with Travis. As to why they were created, the possibilities are endless. Trying go figure out a logical explanation is an exercise in futility.

I'm not saying that logic is not the way to go, just that it won't guarantee a correct answer. As I look at some of the crazy stories that have come forth over the years, I'm at a loss to find any kind of a logical explanation for many of them. BB comes to mind, but he is not a lone case. I think he may be somewhat unbalanced, but I'm sure he has family and friends that think he is quite normal, and a genius. It's all a matter of perspective.

I am still convinced of who had a major hand in producing the Stone Maps. How and why they were passed along to Tumlinson is a mystery, but I would guess that money was some kind of factor. I was told that someone saw my map in a parking lot in AJ and offered to buy if from my friend. Who knows what kind of story that person might have created behind that map.

One of the reasons I believe that DeGrazia had something to do with the maps, is because there is a connection between Ted and the LaFrance family. Harry's cave of gold bars location is shown on the Stone Maps. Now you might think that's just a coincidence but I would suggest you do a little research into the LaFrance family name in Arizona. Let me know how many you come up with and any other coincidences that show up in the results.

It's possible that someone(s) may have created the maps to generate additional interest in the LDM and Apache Junction. The maps have created a bit of a cottage industry all by themselves. In that respect, they were a big success......nationwide.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

I am confused. We have Garry stating that Janie told him and Larry that Travis Carved the stones. She told me that her dad in no way perpetrated or had any part in a hoax. Azmula has close family members telling him a hybrid version of mine and Garry's Stories. Now we have Charlie Miller, Al Reser, Chuck Aylor, and Ted DeGrazia all tied in together in making the stones.

If I am not mistaken, I think someone even tied Tom Kollenborn into the stone maps because of the perspective view of the designer from a certain place in the mountains.

So Joe, is/was there some kind of major conspiracy in making the stone maps by a bunch of old time Dutch Hunters? It looks like where this is leading.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Just throwing out ideas for the sake of discussion......and possible research.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

Understandable. IF we are to believe that TT made all the maps, then we would HAVE to assume that he had assistance in their design (since he was not THAT familiar with the mountains). Do you agree?

If so, then his assistance would likely have come from Charlie Miller and/or Al Reser (since we already know they were close). This would negate Charlie's Story about helping TT clean the stones and all the little roots growing out of the grooves.

If this were so, then WHY would Charlie turn around and talk about TT adding engravings to the stones? Makes no sense. Why wouldn't he have just said TT carved them, or just not say anything. Why leave it at TT added to the engravings?

Was there a connection between Charlie Miller, Al Reser and Chuck Aylor, Ted DeGrazia? This is only if you adhere to Joe's theory that Aylor/DeGrazia made the stones. I ask because I know they all had to have known or known of each other, but only someone well versed in AJ History would know if they got along or not. After all, they could have known each other, but got along like Ed Piper and Marie Jones. LOL If they disliked each other, then that puts the theory at great risk.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I find the connection between Travis Tumlinson and Charley Howe much more interesting than the others you mention in your post. Don't you?

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

I have to admit that Charley Howe is a name I have not heard associated with the Superstitions until now.

There was a fairly famous photographer of Indian Petroglyphs in Southern California in the early 1950s by that name. Same guy?

Maybe you could expand on the man and the connection to TT?

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
Sure you haven't got a signed first edition of DeGrazia's autobiography by Clifford Irving on the bookshelf ? After all,with what we now know about the "Olbers Manifest" forgery and the many other fakes and fakers known to Tom and other old timers,it would seem that even "documentation" should be viewed with some suspicion...even when the source is trusted by those receiving the document.As I have suggested previously,it seems unlikely,given both DeGrazia's private and public persona that he would have become involved in any conspiracy to defraud the public.Even if he had,unwittingly,why would he not have come forward when the news of the Mitchell/Moel case became public?

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Heh Guys:
When I googled "clifford irving" to check my spelling,I came across this site....http://www.drtomoconnor.com/3210/3210lect07.htm.
Looks like an interesting read and reference.The "Mormon Will" is also listed, and having my memory refreshed on that case,it got me to thinking..........

Maybe it was Howard Hughes that orchestrated the whole Stone Maps mystery.
Spare change from a billionaire's pocket can buy both silence and spread deception at the same time.A charitable elbow in the right direction could even give a little known artist world-wide fame.Perhaps the maps are his real will,with a fortune in gold and silver ( purchased,of course,with after tax income) bequeathed to the person who finds the true end of the Stone Map Trail.

Whaddya think?

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Joe,

I have to admit that Charley Howe is a name I have not heard associated with the Superstitions until now.

There was a fairly famous photographer of Indian Petroglyphs in Southern California in the early 1950s by that name. Same guy?

Maybe you could expand on the man and the connection to TT?

Mike
Mike,

Not sure that Howe was ever in the Superstitions, but it would seem that he knew Travis Tumlinson. On the other hand, maybe it was another Charlie Howe in that picture with Travis. Funny coincidence. 8O

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by zentull »

There is a notebook with 8X10s of the original Bilbrey crosses, not sure about the latin heart stuff though.
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Has anyone ever seen where the provenance of the Latin Heart was addressed?

Who was the person that allegedly discovered the Latin Heart?

When and how did they find it?

Who allegedly destroyed the Latin Heart?

Who claimed to have seen a stone carving of the Latin Heart?

Why are we to believe there was ever a stone carving of the Latin Heart?

If it was created and destroyed, why would we believe that it fit the cavity of the Tumlinson stones?

Maybe someone can walk me back from Bob Ward to the Jim Hatt and Al Reser’s involvement. I think that is as far back as I have ever heard anything. There is a good chance I wasn’t paying very good attention so I may missed something. :)

Joe,

Where did you hear that someone took a hammer to the Bilbery Crosses or am I misunderstanding your post?

Thanks, Garry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Mike McChesney wrote:Joe,

I have to admit that Charley Howe is a name I have not heard associated with the Superstitions until now.

There was a fairly famous photographer of Indian Petroglyphs in Southern California in the early 1950s by that name. Same guy?

Maybe you could expand on the man and the connection to TT?

Mike
Mike,

Not sure that Howe was ever in the Superstitions, but it would seem that he knew Travis Tumlinson. On the other hand, maybe it was another Charlie Howe in that picture with Travis. Funny coincidence. 8O

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

Could you post that pic of Howe and TT together?

I could think of at least one very good reason for the two to be pictured together:

After having found the stones, TT let Howe look at them (maybe even photograph them). At the time, Clayton "Charley" Howe was a very well known expert on petroglyphs. It is entirely possible TT sought him out for his expert opinion.

Mike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Guys,

I received a private e-mail and it seem most of my questions regarding the Latin Heart were addressed on DesertUSA. [Topic - THE LATIN HEART]. To access the topic you must have a password.

I wasn't paying attention! :oops:

Lots of stuff to digest.

Garry
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Garry is the one who clued me in on the photo. If he wants to post more of the information on it, I will leave that to him. I thought others, like you, might have come across this information and have more to add.

This is where Garry first came across the information: Superstition Mountain Journal - Volume 3, Published 1984. I have that issue at home, but it does not supply much real information.

I believe Garry and Larry are trying to find out more details.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"After having found the stones, TT let Howe look at them (maybe even photograph them). At the time, Clayton "Charley" Howe was a very well known expert on petroglyphs. It is entirely possible TT sought him out for his expert opinion."

That's a reasonable possiblity. We have the story that the Redlands professor authenticated them, the FBI authenticated them, why not the story about Howe's conclusions???

Take care,

Joe
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