Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

[Oroblanco]

Postscript, here is a document penned by Father Nentvig, had to make it small so that it will post but you can see the letter forms pretty well. I hope this works.

<For anyone curious, it is simply a baptismal document, nothing treasure oriented>

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy,

You are, of course, correct. Having said that I am, no doubt, now the one who is "screaming".

When I was a firm believer in the Stone Maps, and the Jesuit connection, there were any number of people who thought I was a bit "teched". We always seemed to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. These days, it always seems to be more personal.

Take care,

Joe

[alan m]

Hello Roy
It is obvious that there is no similarity between the tablets lettering style and that presented in the Nentvig letter, however even if it could be seen as similar it would hardly be related evidence, in my opinion, due to the physical differences in writing a letter and carving letters into a stone.
I am currently working on preparing a copy of the stone tablets by carving them from
identical, OK similar, sandstone using just the type of tools that a period blacksmith would have had.
I want to get an idea of the level of difficulty ii presents.
Along the same line as carving into rock, I offer this as an example;
The Kensington Rune stone was thought to be a hoax since its discovery but now, new evidence has come to light which confirms its authenticity.
As I am sure that you are aware, it was through letter style comparison that provided the breakthrough but I want to point out one significant difference.
The style of the lettering used in the Kennsington Rune stone, the hooked X, was found in a document which was authentic beyond reproach and which had not been known to exist prior to the discovery of the rune stone.
Comparing style with the Stone ATablets does not get us as far because there is no other stone map with which to compair. These tablets are cryptic, which means that they are intended to appear as something other than what they really are.
The rune stone was not intended to be cryptic, therefore the comparison with other type documents is a valid way of dating it.
One more point.
Those of use who belive that the stone tablets are authentic, post information to that effect because we want to interest others into further research which we hope will lead to the solution.
If they are a hoax,so what?
Best regards
Alan

[Oroblanco]

Joe - I think I know what you mean, and were our discussions being held in person, around a friendly campfire, I strongly doubt that there would be so many misunderstandings or perceived hostility. The printed word fails to allow the inflection, emphasis etc so often comes across much harsher than was the intent.

Alan, the Kensington stone example is a good example of why the Peralta stones should be approached in the very same way; for a treasure map is not intended to mislead, but to lead the user to the hidden treasure. If they are supposed to be treasure maps then they should not be heavily coded, which may well result in the intended user failing to find the concealed wealth.

I think that similar sandstone is fine for the experiment you are running, the end results are what you wish to see for comparison purposes after all. I presume that you will not make an effort to duplicate modern tool marks (as in dimples) but will perform the carving as it would be done with hand tools, so that it is not a deliberate match up.

If the stone tablets are a hoax, then they could be said to be harmless, but we have had a number of persons die in the Superstitions in the last couple of years and they may well have been following out those stone tablets. In that case they are very harmful and dangerous indeed. If they are genuine, they are an historic treasure in their own right and belong in a museum as they are. So it is worth the examination in either case, in my opinion.

One last point, you mentioned that there are no other stone tablet maps, which in itself is a red flag. Stone is not a logical material to use for a treasure map. They are still interesting, heck if I had something like those, I would put them on display.
Roy

[alan m]

Roy
You bring up some very good points, I agree with you about the potential damage that fake treasure maps present. I did not think of that aspect.
As for the experiment, it is intended to be done as if they were carved in 1847.
Locating the right type of sandstone for the Horse/Priest tablet may be a challenge.
Best Regards
Alan

[novice]

When I first started this thread I had no particular final destination but only wanted to share some of our research into the Travis Tumlinson story. I had initially thought we might eventually get into the some of Travis’s personal stories, his manuscript, etc. but I think the thread has served its purpose and it is time for me to retire from the field.

I mentioned earlier that there were other leads to run down and for the time being that will be my focus.

Since this thread started we have seen an exciting new solution to the stone maps being proposed by EL BAYO and Kurt on the other forums. Is the timing a coincidence? I like to flatter myself and believe that this thread may have provided some impetus for this flurry of activity?

We are also waiting for Azmula’s Superstition Mountain Journal article and perhaps he will shed some light on his sources, the manuscript and some of his future book plans.

Please continue,

Garry

[Mike McChesney]

Roy,

When you say that there are no other stone tablets that is not exactly correct:

1. The ten commandments are supposedly written on two such tablets! LOL

2. and this little ditty from Texas:

http://www.texfiles.com/features/spiderrock.htm

Here are the pics:





Funny though, isn't it, that these discs were found in Texas? Could there be a relationship?

Mike

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

When you say that there are no other stone tablets that is not exactly correct:

1. The ten commandments are supposedly written on two such tablets! LOL

2. and this little ditty from Texas:

<snip>
Funny though, isn't it, that these discs were found in Texas? Could there be a relationship?

Mike

Mike,
Is that what I said, "there are no other stone tablets"? Perhaps you might wish to correct this by re-reading what I did say, or to save you the time here it is:

"One last point, you mentioned that there are no other stone tablet maps, which in itself is a red flag. Stone is not a logical material to use for a treasure map."

This was written in reply to what Alan posted, which was, quote

Comparing style with the Stone ATablets does not get us as far because there is no other stone map with which to compair.

The spider rocks of Texas have never even been established to be maps, let alone treasure maps. The markings on them are suggestive of a calender function rather than a geographic guide. However true to form for treasure hunters, on seeing some mysterious markings the leap is made that they must be some kind of cryptic maps to treasures and nothing else. There was an interesting discussion on one of the old bulletin boards some years ago, back in the BBB daze when everything was text online and no images, but I cannot find it online today. If you can find it, my comments are under the same name I use now. I can't say that I see any clear connection between the spider rocks and the Peralta stones.

There are a great many stone tablets, but as treasure maps stone is clearly not the popular choice for construction material.

Garry I hope that nothing I said was offensive to you, if so my apologies and I hope you know that no offense was intended. Perhaps I should drop out of this discussion, since the skepticism is not perceived as mere skepticism; in fact I am dropping out. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

[Somehiker]

And another,from Texas as well.

[Mike McChesney]

Sorry Roy,

My bad. I was reading for time not content. HAHAHAHA

The biggest problem we have with the three differing versions of events told to three different people by Janie Tumlinson, is that the different versions can be interpreted about a million different ways. That, and the fact that she isn't speaking to us any more (maybe because of the book?) just leaves too much room for interpretation . There has to be a definitive statement made by someone who would have been in a position to know for certain. We do have Travis' Manuscript (at least one person has a copy of it that I know of), but how do we know how much in it is honest or a cover up? We can't.

So, I guess that the authenticity of the stones is still up in the air. As for me, my faith in that authenticity is a little shaken. THE TRUTH WILL OUT! EVENTUALLY

Mike

[novice]

Roy,

I was certainly not offended. In fact, I didn’t understand your comment about skepticism. I must have missed something!

I certainly don’t want you to abandon the thread and if you have additional information to share please do so.

I’m following the discussion you and Alan are having regarding Polzer and hope something will jump out at me. He’s certainly an interesting subject.

The thread has been a big help and I just need to take stock and see where I need to go from here. I just don’t want to get ahead of myself. I need to digest some of the new information. Posters has been helpful and I especially want to thank Mike McChesney for his openness and sharing a lot of "new" information. Larry Hannah did some great background research on the information shown on the Galleon Stone that Travis carved, Wayne gave me a great lead on the Indian or “Ape” heads that Travis either found or carved, etc.

I’m content for the time being to wait on Azmula’s article and look over his shoulder regarding the manuscript and his story.

Mike,

I know you once said, that if you became firmly convinced the stone maps were a hoax, you would have no further interest. I believe the whole history is every bit as interesting either way. I hope you would remain involved, no matter.

Garry

[Mike McChesney]

I should rephrase a statement from my last post:

The biggest problem we have with the three differing versions of events told to three different people by Janie Tumlinson,

Janie only told two different versions (one to me and one to Garry). The third version was told to Azmula by a relative that also told him where Janie got her information from. This third version should be verifiable by parties known and trusted (not all LOL). Explanation will come when SMHS Article comes out.

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

This piece of carved sandstone was given to a friend's father around fifty years ago:



His father was a Dutch Hunter.

Take care,

Joe

[alan m]

Hello Joe
Do you know if this stone tablet was given before the life article came out?
Also was his last name Applegate?
Best Regards
Alan

[Joe Ribaudo]

Alan,

The Life article came out in 1964. I was told "probably fifty years ago" for this stone.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Alan,

Sorry! I forgot to add that his name was not Applegate.

Joe

[alan m]

Thank-you for the info
Best Regards
Alan

[Somehiker]

Joe:
Thought provoking.
Given the limited amount of information supplied,along with the excellent photo,I offer the following observations:

The carving is "around" fifty years old.The rock,which bears the carving is described as "red sandstone".
The carving is known to have been in the possession of at least two people.
The first person known to have the carving was a "dutch hunter",who's identity is unknown to myself at this point.
The second person received this carving directly from this "dutch hunter".
The second person,son of the first,is also unknown to me at this time.
A single photo of this carved stone exists,of high quality.
This same photo has been posted on this website by Joe Ribaudo.
The origin of the photo is unknown at this point.
Joe Ribaudo is known to have an interest in carved stones,mining and "dutch hunting".
The carving was photographed,resting on edge with a hardcover copy of "The Chronological History of the Superstition Wilderness Area, the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Adjacent Central Mountain Region",written by Tom Kollenborn (first published in 1988)
The date of the photograph is also unknown to me at this time.

______________________________________________________________________
I will post some observations and thoughts regarding the stone and it's carving tomorrow.

Regards:Wayne

[Somehiker]

The stone appears to be natural,relatively smooth on the visible surfaces.
The absence of sharp edges and uniformity of texture indicate the sample to have been subject to natural erosion,by abrasives water born or wind blown.
There is no evidence visible in the photo of any discoloration due to mineral staining.
The uniformity of both colour and texture indicate an alluvial source,likely from within the US southwest.
There is no evidence on the visible surfaces of any mechanical pre-carving preparation.

___________________________________________________________________________

more later-

Regards:Wayne

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

That is an interesting stone. Whatever the rest of the story, the single thing that stands out to me is that the inside of the groove forming the heart is MUCH lighter in color than the rest of the surface of the stone. This says one of two things:

1. If the interior of the stone is lighter than the surface. The inside of the groove has not had time to weather (or has not been exposed to weather) to match the outer surface (read newer).

2. If the interior of the stone is the same color as the surface. Whatever was used to make the groove forced media of the stone into itself, crushing it along the path of the tool. This would make the inside of the groove appear lighter. It means that the inside of the groove had not had time to weather and match the surface (read newer).

Thanks for the pic Joe,

Mike

[novice]

Joe,

I assume since you posted the photo you were at least prepared to fend off questions.

It is obviously related to the trail maps and the 50 years ago (about 1961) is interesting. Is there any additional information you can share regarding the provenance?

Does your friend know the identity of the individual who gave the map to his father?

Did this individual make the carving specifically for your friend's father or does the stone’s history continue beyond that individual?

Does your friend indicate when it was given to his father? (About what year) Or are we stuck with the general term of about 50 years ago? Your friend may be able to relate how old he was, whether he was in school, or already away from home working when this stone was given to his father. Anything that would give us firmer handle on the 50 years ago.

Have you physically seen the stone or did your friend just share the photo?

Thanks in advance,

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne and Mike,

Actually the stone was given to my friends father, just before his death. That means that it has passed through the hands of at least three people, and I have been told I will be the fourth.

Age wise, the carving is not claimed to be much older than 50-years old. I don't believe there is any hidden meaning or mystery to the carving. From what I understand, it was done as a simple illustration.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I don't know the answers to all of your questions, but I can certainly find out. Since it was 50 years ago, there may be a fading memory factor obsuring some of the details. Beyond that, my email will explain all that I know about the stone.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Joe:
Interesting that the heart on this stone has a hole drilled in the center.Also the word "MINA",which does not appear on any of the Stone Maps.Do you think this carving has any connection to the heart-shaped boulder at the end of your trail?

Regards:Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

"Do you think this carving has any connection to the heart-shaped boulder at the end of your trail?"

Yes! The obvious attempt to tie this stone to the Stone Maps is undeniable. Since the Stone Map trail leads to the exact center of my pictured heart, this stone is something of a copy.

I think this stone was done by someone who may have worked on the original Stone Maps, or knows the people who created them. In that respect, I think it's probably as important as the originals.

For anyone interested, I will probably bring some copies of the topo' that pertains to the Stone Maps. I will mark some of the landmarks and let folks figure out the Stone Maps for themselves.

Take care,

Joe