Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Except,

Travis T kept the existence of the Stone Maps pretty much a secret for the entire time he owned them (about twelve years).

Joe,

Please check your source that told you the he knew someone that Travis tried selling the Stone Maps to. Is he certain it was Travis Tumlinson and not Travis Marlowe? What year did this take place? In all the years I have been researching the Stone Maps, I have not found ONE PERSON that has said that Travis T EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

On the other hand, Travis Marlowe (Clarence O Mitchell) tried to sell them on more than one documented occasion. I think it is more likely that your source's friend was talking about Travis Marlowe and not Travis Tumlinson.

Mike
Mike,

Sorry, but it was Travis Tumlinson and I'm sure it's true. My source does not want to get drawn into the usual food fight that accompanies these long held beliefs, so I will not press him on the matter.

As you know, I have very good sources.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Deducer »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Mike McChesney wrote:Except,

Travis T kept the existence of the Stone Maps pretty much a secret for the entire time he owned them (about twelve years).

Joe,

Please check your source that told you the he knew someone that Travis tried selling the Stone Maps to. Is he certain it was Travis Tumlinson and not Travis Marlowe? What year did this take place? In all the years I have been researching the Stone Maps, I have not found ONE PERSON that has said that Travis T EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

On the other hand, Travis Marlowe (Clarence O Mitchell) tried to sell them on more than one documented occasion. I think it is more likely that your source's friend was talking about Travis Marlowe and not Travis Tumlinson.

Mike
Mike,

Sorry, but it was Travis Tumlinson and I'm sure it's true. My source does not want to get drawn into the usual food fight that accompanies these long held beliefs, so I will not press him on the matter.

As you know, I have very good sources.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe
You refuse to reveal your sources, but are always asking for sources, or questioning other posters sources.

If you expect us to treat your "source" as verified, then you should extend the same courtesy to us.

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Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Deducer,

If Joe says his guy is absolutely positive that it was Travis T, then I am certain Joe believes it. Joe does have some good sources. It is your choice as to how much credence you give the info.

Joe and I don't always agree on theories and interpretations, but I have never found Joe to have lied to me about anything. I just have a hard time believing that since the Stone Maps have been made public (1964), not one person has publicly stated that Travis T tried to sell them. Not one recorded instance of Travis T trying to sell them ever. Now, in 2015, we have a friend of a friend that says he is positive Travis T was the one that tried selling him the Stone Maps. All I am wondering was the approximate date this attempted sale took place. Dick Peck had his investigators talk to everybody that Travis T was friendly with. They pretty thoroughly interviewed many of the people that knew him, and not one ever said Travis EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

What do we know for certain? Travis had the Stone Maps in 1949. About 1956, his Uncle Robert took them for a few years. Before his death, Travis took the Stone Maps back from his Uncle. At this time, a huge rift was formed between Travis and Robert. So big, that in 1965, when Peck's Investigator was speaking to Robert, he didn't even know that his nephew had died four years before. Robert never attempted to sell them, because he believed they were actual maps to Treasure, and they didn't belong to him.

Who could have tried to sell the Stone Maps:

1. Travis Tumlinson: Not one person from 1949 until 2015 has ever publicly stated that Travis T ever tried selling The Stone Maps. One person privately says he did.

2. Robert Tumlinson: Not one person has ever publicly stated that Robert Tumlinson had tried to sell the Stone Maps.

3. Clarence O Mitchell (AKA Travis Marlowe): He bought the Stone Maps from Travis' Widow (Alleen). He made them public with the 1964 LIFE Magazine Article. He tried selling the stone maps to Dick Peck, and a couple of others at the time. Peck's Deal was the closest to fruition.

Whether or not Travis T tried selling the Stone Maps makes not one iota of difference to me, but I can't find any evidence of that happening. I believe Joe truly believes his source. Its just that without anybody else ever having said that, it is hard not to think Joe's Source may be mistaken. It happens.

Mike

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Deducer wrote:
Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Mike McChesney wrote:Except,

Travis T kept the existence of the Stone Maps pretty much a secret for the entire time he owned them (about twelve years).

Joe,

Please check your source that told you the he knew someone that Travis tried selling the Stone Maps to. Is he certain it was Travis Tumlinson and not Travis Marlowe? What year did this take place? In all the years I have been researching the Stone Maps, I have not found ONE PERSON that has said that Travis T EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

On the other hand, Travis Marlowe (Clarence O Mitchell) tried to sell them on more than one documented occasion. I think it is more likely that your source's friend was talking about Travis Marlowe and not Travis Tumlinson.

Mike
Mike,

Sorry, but it was Travis Tumlinson and I'm sure it's true. My source does not want to get drawn into the usual food fight that accompanies these long held beliefs, so I will not press him on the matter.

As you know, I have very good sources.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe
You refuse to reveal your sources, but are always asking for sources, or questioning other posters sources.

If you expect us to treat your "source" as verified, then you should extend the same courtesy to us.
deducer,

Something you have never learned, in all these years, is that it is not an insult to ask for sources. You can either say what they are, or decline. I often, with their permission, give my sources when asked, or even before asked.

When you make "historical" statements, there should be no reason for not quoting the source. I believe you have made many such statements which are now proving to have been false. In other words, their is no "historical" source, and your book is still waiting in the wings or has been set aside, or is in the process of being totally rewritten.

I have made it clear that my source, in this case, does not want to get into an endless pissing match, such as you have created over many years now.

Everyone is welcome to judge my words as they wish. They all know who I am. You wish to remain a ghost, attacking others hidden behind a (somewhat) anonymous name. As such, I'm not really interested in your opinion of me.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Deducer,

If Joe says his guy is absolutely positive that it was Travis T, then I am certain Joe believes it. Joe does have some good sources. It is your choice as to how much credence you give the info.

Joe and I don't always agree on theories and interpretations, but I have never found Joe to have lied to me about anything. I just have a hard time believing that since the Stone Maps have been made public (1964), not one person has publicly stated that Travis T tried to sell them. Not one recorded instance of Travis T trying to sell them ever. Now, in 2015, we have a friend of a friend that says he is positive Travis T was the one that tried selling him the Stone Maps. All I am wondering was the approximate date this attempted sale took place. Dick Peck had his investigators talk to everybody that Travis T was friendly with. They pretty thoroughly interviewed many of the people that knew him, and not one ever said Travis EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

What do we know for certain? Travis had the Stone Maps in 1949. About 1956, his Uncle Robert took them for a few years. Before his death, Travis took the Stone Maps back from his Uncle. At this time, a huge rift was formed between Travis and Robert. So big, that in 1965, when Peck's Investigator was speaking to Robert, he didn't even know that his nephew had died four years before. Robert never attempted to sell them, because he believed they were actual maps to Treasure, and they didn't belong to him.

Who could have tried to sell the Stone Maps:

1. Travis Tumlinson: Not one person from 1949 until 2015 has ever publicly stated that Travis T ever tried selling The Stone Maps. One person privately says he did.

2. Robert Tumlinson: Not one person has ever publicly stated that Robert Tumlinson had tried to sell the Stone Maps.

3. Clarence O Mitchell (AKA Travis Marlowe): He bought the Stone Maps from Travis' Widow (Alleen). He made them public with the 1964 LIFE Magazine Article. He tried selling the stone maps to Dick Peck, and a couple of others at the time. Peck's Deal was the closest to fruition.

Whether or not Travis T tried selling the Stone Maps makes not one iota of difference to me, but I can't find any evidence of that happening. I believe Joe truly believes his source. Its just that without anybody else ever having said that, it is hard not to think Joe's Source may be mistaken. It happens.

Mike
Mike,

Thank you. I could say the same thing about you.

I do have one question......It's been pretty well established that Travis T. did carve the Stone Maps. He may have done them by copying them from a paper or skin map. Why would he then transfer them to the very unwieldy stone slabs which needed to be carried around in the trunk of his car. What logic could be found in that fact, other than to create something for sale.

Where is the original that he copied onto the stones? Now there is something that would have some huge value, because they could be authenticated. If his wife didn't know, who would? If they existed, she should have sold them, along with the story, to her "sucker". $$$$$$$$$

Take care,

Joe

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Mike McChesney
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Mike McChesney wrote:Deducer,

If Joe says his guy is absolutely positive that it was Travis T, then I am certain Joe believes it. Joe does have some good sources. It is your choice as to how much credence you give the info.

Joe and I don't always agree on theories and interpretations, but I have never found Joe to have lied to me about anything. I just have a hard time believing that since the Stone Maps have been made public (1964), not one person has publicly stated that Travis T tried to sell them. Not one recorded instance of Travis T trying to sell them ever. Now, in 2015, we have a friend of a friend that says he is positive Travis T was the one that tried selling him the Stone Maps. All I am wondering was the approximate date this attempted sale took place. Dick Peck had his investigators talk to everybody that Travis T was friendly with. They pretty thoroughly interviewed many of the people that knew him, and not one ever said Travis EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

What do we know for certain? Travis had the Stone Maps in 1949. About 1956, his Uncle Robert took them for a few years. Before his death, Travis took the Stone Maps back from his Uncle. At this time, a huge rift was formed between Travis and Robert. So big, that in 1965, when Peck's Investigator was speaking to Robert, he didn't even know that his nephew had died four years before. Robert never attempted to sell them, because he believed they were actual maps to Treasure, and they didn't belong to him.

Who could have tried to sell the Stone Maps:

1. Travis Tumlinson: Not one person from 1949 until 2015 has ever publicly stated that Travis T ever tried selling The Stone Maps. One person privately says he did.

2. Robert Tumlinson: Not one person has ever publicly stated that Robert Tumlinson had tried to sell the Stone Maps.

3. Clarence O Mitchell (AKA Travis Marlowe): He bought the Stone Maps from Travis' Widow (Alleen). He made them public with the 1964 LIFE Magazine Article. He tried selling the stone maps to Dick Peck, and a couple of others at the time. Peck's Deal was the closest to fruition.

Whether or not Travis T tried selling the Stone Maps makes not one iota of difference to me, but I can't find any evidence of that happening. I believe Joe truly believes his source. Its just that without anybody else ever having said that, it is hard not to think Joe's Source may be mistaken. It happens.

Mike
Mike,

Thank you. I could say the same thing about you.

I do have one question......It's been pretty well established that Travis T. did carve the Stone Maps. He may have done them by copying them from a paper or skin map. Why would he then transfer them to the very unwieldy stone slabs which needed to be carried around in the trunk of his car. What logic could be found in that fact, other than to create something for sale.

Where is the original that he copied onto the stones? Now there is something that would have some huge value, because they could be authenticated. If his wife didn't know, who would? If they existed, she should have sold them, along with the story, to her "sucker". $$$$$$$$$

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

You are making assumptions that he carved The Stone Maps based on a preexisting cloth or parchment map. I agree that it is a possibility, but there are millions of possibilities that exist for something with no documented record prior to 1949. Is it possible that Brasero was the one that actually found the maps and sold them to Travis? Yes it is. I don't believe it for a second though. I am sure the Brasero's Family would be mad at me for not believing what he said. Bob Heironymous said he was the guy wearing a Bigfoot costume in the Patterson/Gimlin Film. But, when asked, he couldn't remember where they made the film. Many people say many things for many different reasons. Janie Tumlinson told me that in no way was her dad part of any hoax with The Stone Maps. It is entirely possible she lied to me through her teeth, because what she told me was at odds with what she said to both Garry and Larry. OR, she could have lied to both of them and told me the truth. Maybe she said to us what she thought we wanted to hear. I don't know, and have no explanation. Am I saying I don't believe Joe T? Nope. I watch the interview and file the info away with everything else about the Stone Maps I have learned.

Mike

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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Mike wrote
Janie Tumlinson told me that in no way was her dad part of any hoax with The Stone Maps. It is entirely possible she lied to me through her teeth, because what she told me was at odds with what she said to both Garry and Larry. OR, she could have lied to both of them and told me the truth. Maybe she said to us what she thought we wanted to hear. I don't know, and have no explanation.
You are interpreting Janie's statement that her father had not pulled a HOAX, as meaning that he did not make the maps. It is not the same thing. He could have made the maps, NOT intending it as a hoax and not trying to fool people. Both statements then from Janie and other relatives would be TRUE. Yes he made them and no he was not pulling a hoax.

Did not mean to derail the discussion there, just noticed that apparent dilemma which is not really a dilemma - for both statements can be true and neither party lying. I would add that an original pattern could have been on ordinary paper, or wood, or leather as well as parchment or cloth. The fact that cloth replicas were seen by Bernice (if memory serves) that would tend to support cloth as the possible original pattern. Has anyone found the cloth duplicate?
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Roy,

The reason I posted that was because Joe (and others) are trying to say that Travis T INTENTIONALLY made the Stone Maps to sell along with his manuscript.

Also Roy, Janie might have been telling me an outright lie or she may have told Garry and Larry outright lies, but she lied to either them or me. No two ways around it.

Mike

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Got it, just think it is one of the main possibilities, that no lying was involved, and both cases true. No hoax, TT carved them.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Roy,

The reason I posted that was because Joe (and others) are trying to say that Travis T INTENTIONALLY made the Stone Maps to sell along with his manuscript.

Also Roy, Janie might have been telling me an outright lie or she may have told Garry and Larry outright lies, but she lied to either them or me. No two ways around it.

Mike
Mike,

OK, she lied to someone. Garry and his wife make a pretty non-threatening team. You, on the other hand, can look pretty menacing. :lol:

It's kind of like Brownie believing Waltz gave the gold ore under his bed, to his dad. Probably thought.....My dad would never steal a dead man's gold.

Is it your belief that Travis did not create the manuscript in order to sell the story? Every treasure story needs some written in stone evidence......so to speak. 8O

Hi Roy!

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Deducer »

Oroblanco wrote:Mike wrote
Janie Tumlinson told me that in no way was her dad part of any hoax with The Stone Maps. It is entirely possible she lied to me through her teeth, because what she told me was at odds with what she said to both Garry and Larry. OR, she could have lied to both of them and told me the truth. Maybe she said to us what she thought we wanted to hear. I don't know, and have no explanation.
You are interpreting Janie's statement that her father had not pulled a HOAX, as meaning that he did not make the maps. It is not the same thing. He could have made the maps, NOT intending it as a hoax and not trying to fool people. Both statements then from Janie and other relatives would be TRUE. Yes he made them and no he was not pulling a hoax.

Did not mean to derail the discussion there, just noticed that apparent dilemma which is not really a dilemma - for both statements can be true and neither party lying. I would add that an original pattern could have been on ordinary paper, or wood, or leather as well as parchment or cloth. The fact that cloth replicas were seen by Bernice (if memory serves) that would tend to support cloth as the possible original pattern. Has anyone found the cloth duplicate?
I think Roy has a point here. It is possible that Janie told the truth to both Mike and Joe.

1) That Travis was not trying to create a hoax, which is pretty consistent with everything said or written about his actions, except for the anomaly that is Joe's "source."

2) That she saw Travis carving the maps which could also be taken to be the truth because Travis was said to have created a duplicate set of the maps, and Ryan claims to have proof of this (and Joe T. does recall that the original stones were all the same color as the H/P stone). In this regard, she could have been speaking the truth if what she saw was him creating a duplicate copy.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Deducer wrote:
Oroblanco wrote:Mike wrote
Janie Tumlinson told me that in no way was her dad part of any hoax with The Stone Maps. It is entirely possible she lied to me through her teeth, because what she told me was at odds with what she said to both Garry and Larry. OR, she could have lied to both of them and told me the truth. Maybe she said to us what she thought we wanted to hear. I don't know, and have no explanation.
You are interpreting Janie's statement that her father had not pulled a HOAX, as meaning that he did not make the maps. It is not the same thing. He could have made the maps, NOT intending it as a hoax and not trying to fool people. Both statements then from Janie and other relatives would be TRUE. Yes he made them and no he was not pulling a hoax.

Did not mean to derail the discussion there, just noticed that apparent dilemma which is not really a dilemma - for both statements can be true and neither party lying. I would add that an original pattern could have been on ordinary paper, or wood, or leather as well as parchment or cloth. The fact that cloth replicas were seen by Bernice (if memory serves) that would tend to support cloth as the possible original pattern. Has anyone found the cloth duplicate?
I think Roy has a point here. It is possible that Janie told the truth to both Mike and Joe.

1) That Travis was not trying to create a hoax, which is pretty consistent with everything said or written about his actions, except for the anomaly that is Joe's "source."

2) That she saw Travis carving the maps which could also be taken to be the truth because Travis was said to have created a duplicate set of the maps, and Ryan claims to have proof of this (and Joe T. does recall that the original stones were all the same color as the H/P stone). In this regard, she could have been speaking the truth if what she saw was him creating a duplicate copy.
deducer,

It may be that my "source" is an "anomaly", but he never told me the crap that came from Azmula's sources or some of the other sources still trying to pass along made up facts. You really are who you associate with, who do you hang out with?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Roy,

The reason I posted that was because Joe (and others) are trying to say that Travis T INTENTIONALLY made the Stone Maps to sell along with his manuscript.

Also Roy, Janie might have been telling me an outright lie or she may have told Garry and Larry outright lies, but she lied to either them or me. No two ways around it.

Mike
Mike,

I think this quote from Ryan sheds new light on the legends surrounding the Stone Maps, etc.

"Any sub topics of Latin Hearts & Crosses are completely moot for me. Travis carved the maps. The people who found those items wanted to attach themselves to a legend and placed the Latin Heart at the spot where legend says the other maps were found. Legend is wrong in the discovery location, so that makes the Latin Heart as nothing more than an attachment to a false legend.....and when the going got rough for the "finders", they threw a temper tantrum and destroyed what they found."

Too much phony evidence for me. Glad I'm out of it, but still don't regret anything.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Deducer »

Joe Ribaudo wrote: deducer,

It may be that my "source" is an "anomaly", but he never told me the crap that came from Azmula's sources or some of the other sources still trying to pass along made up facts. You really are who you associate with, who do you hang out with?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Back when I first became interested from watching a segment on the LDM and the Stone Maps on the Discovery Channel, I looked up everything on it, and eventually stumbled across this forum as well as the other two forums.

Before I even registered and said a word, I read every single thread on every single subject on all three forums.

I eventually came to the conclusion that of all the posters that posted, I could count on one hand the number of people who knew what they were talking about (Mike is one). I eventually picked one of those persons to, as you say, "hang out with" or as I see it, align my interests with, as there is a purpose to my involvement here, and one in which my anonymity plays a role. But fear not, this anonymity will not last long if what I expect to happen, happens.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by klondike »

Hello Mr. Ribaudo:

Do you find this a pretty strong statement considering nothing has been produced that validates the dirt map or invalidates the maps, etc., that are in the public view:

I think this quote from Ryan sheds new light on the legends surrounding the Stone Maps, etc.

"Any sub topics of Latin Hearts & Crosses are completely moot for me. Travis carved the maps. The people who found those items wanted to attach themselves to a legend and placed the Latin Heart at the spot where legend says the other maps were found. Legend is wrong in the discovery location, so that makes the Latin Heart as nothing more than an attachment to a false legend.....and when the going got rough for the "finders", they threw a temper tantrum and destroyed what they found."


It seems those folks are hanging their hat on a map that has not been subject to any scrutiny while the others have been well beat to death with all their warts described for many, many years.

For example. Your solution to the trail maps is out there and can be criticize or supported. The solution the truth squad has come up with has no such debate associated with it. Personally I know you are right, and I guess from your perspective that must prove you are wrong. :D

What we are seeing is that no amount of effort has produced anything. The dirt map, trail maps, everything is up in the air. Obviously if Travis had faith in the dirt map it did not do him any good as far as we know.

Perhaps there is another solution. Perhaps the trail maps and the dirt map are part and parcel of the same package. One part made its way to Texas the other stayed in Arizona. Maybe a young man was exposed to the trail maps when another family member dug it up in Arizona and brought it back to Texas. A young man became enthralled with what he saw and began emulating carving stones. This would explain why the Tumlinson`s could claim they saw Travis carving stones and well so what. His template was the trail maps not the dirt map. This would appear to make sense and would validate other sources of information and not disprove any of them.

Keep one thing in mind there could be a synergy between the trail maps and the dirt map that Tumlison never could figure out. Basically without understanding how they work together nothing will be accomplished.

And remember one thing Travis has always maintained the maps were found in Arizona and not created by him. That doesn`t mean he did not copy them. But it maybe mean that copying them was not a big deal because the dirt map in his mind was the key. Perhaps that is a big, big mistake.


Klondike

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

He carved. Who carved. They carved. We all carved. Nobody carved.

I look at people's actions. I keep saying this because it is a HUGE tell. Travis never tried to sell his Stone Maps to his friend in Hood River, Or. He would sit with that friend for hours trying to decipher the maps. He would stick his finger in the big hole on the lower trail map, and say "If I could only figure out where this is, I would be a millionaire!"

THOSE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF A MAN THAT MADE THE STONE MAPS WITH THE INTENT TO DEFRAUD AN INVESTOR!

I keep coming back to that interview and that statement. More than anything else Travis did (that we know of), THAT is the one big thing that makes me doubt the Stone Maps were made from Travis T's imagination.

Mike

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

Even a blind hog can find an occasional acorn......

I have no doubt, whatsoever that my Stone Map Trail is correct. Way too many coincidences for it to be wrong.

It comes as no surprise that you agree with me, as you have mentioned it a number of times. As I have said many times, you pay attention to what folks post, and weave it into your own story later on. It's the stuff that historical novels are made of. Lots of historical fact and truth, with a very generous portion of fiction mixed into the tale.

I did it once myself to prove a believable work of fiction could be put forth with many historical facts to give it weight. I think some were even beginning to believe it.

IMHO, you are a highly intelligent man with a vivid imagination. You have been proving it here for around ten years now. In this particular Stone Map race, you have picked the right horse.......so to speak.

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:He carved. Who carved. They carved. We all carved. Nobody carved.

I look at people's actions. I keep saying this because it is a HUGE tell. Travis never tried to sell his Stone Maps to his friend in Hood River, Or. He would sit with that friend for hours trying to decipher the maps. He would stick his finger in the big hole on the lower trail map, and say "If I could only figure out where this is, I would be a millionaire!"

THOSE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF A MAN THAT MADE THE STONE MAPS WITH THE INTENT TO DEFRAUD AN INVESTOR!

I keep coming back to that interview and that statement. More than anything else Travis did (that we know of), THAT is the one big thing that makes me doubt the Stone Maps were made from Travis T's imagination.

Mike
Mike,

It only matters who told the truth. On the other hand, that hole in the lower map that Travis was looking for is, likely, Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars. Whoever made Travis' map for him, knew where it was and that it was empty. 8O

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe & Mike,

I re-read this thread and it made my head hurt. There a few things I take issue with:

• There are cobbles of soft sandstone and limestone on the west ridges on the Molly Marie Prospect. In fact, it appears by looking at the weathered texture on the “Don” side of the map stone that it was made from one of these cobbles.

• I agree with Mike concerning the subject of Tumlinson creating them to defraud. Creating them to defraud just doesn’t compute.

• I will meet some doubters halfway though, and do believe that Tumlinson “defaced” the Map Stone by scratching the formula on it. Maybe he wanted the stone to look more intriguing; I don’t know, but the scratchings do not match the rest of the map.

• We will never know the full truth, but one thing is for sure, the Map and Heart Stone are dead on in their description of a location. The odds of them describing any place else are infinitesimally small.

I have shown this link before, but to make telling the story easier, here it is again:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... angle2.JPG

About 9 years ago, my parents visited here from Wyoming. My dad went out to my claims with me and I showed him my recent discovery with the Map Stone.(an earlier post) My dad was a sharp cookie and he was very intrigued by what I’d found. At the time, neither of us knew anything about pits or the breccias there… but my dad knew prospecting, and had taken my brother and I all over NV in and out of mines when we were kids, and had even taken a graduate course in hydrology at UNLV(and did well).

We were standing in the middle of the west ridge near where the southern tip of the triangle was located in the above linked map, and decided to walk downhill to the west and into the gulch. I walked to the southwest, and my dad walked to the northwest. We were just looking around slowly and I meandered back to where my dad was. It was a wet spring, and the grass in the area was deep; it was about 2’ high.

I met up with my dad, and he said he had jumped the biggest mule deer buck he had ever seen. That was saying something, since he had hunted deer for almost all of his 70 years. He showed me his bed in the deep grass. We continued looking around, and we agreed that whole hillside had been disturbed. We wondered what had happened since we both knew mines and mining. We agreed that the exceptional grass may have been due to the soil being disturbed, which happens in reclaimed areas of the coal mines in Wyoming. My dad was becoming more intrigued, and I just happened to have a shovel. He started digging towards the north end of the grassy area and he calls me over.

He was very puzzled why the ground was digging so easily and why it was so sandy. He did not have a pick and the hole was going down fast. I jumped in and started digging. The ground started tightening up as the ground started to get dry, but there were few rocks. We left for the day.

A week later, my parents are back home and my father had fallen ill….. fevers, fevers, fevers. He went to the hospital and they were no help. We diagnosed it on-line as valley fever. Finally, after some threatening, the hospital gave him the medicine; they had never had a case before and were hesitant to give him the cure. He survived the valley fever, but he swore that the disease took out his knees, and he had pain walking ever after.

Now, fast forward a few years. I had learned how to recognize the breccias somewhat and contacted a major mining company. One of their best contacted me, and I sent him some photos; I don’t believe I had the website yet. He met me early one morning in the Needle Overlook parking lot, and after introductions, pulled out an 8-1/2 x 11 glossy of a piece of breccia I had sent him a photo of, and he said “Show me where this came from.” This is the photo I had sent him:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Photos/bestbreccia.jpg

This is not cut, polished, etc., it is just the way it was found. I did not know at the time that this kind of breccia is the “Viagra” of the explorationist’s world. This sample speaks volumes for the preparation that occurred and what is necessary to create the environment needed for a substantial orebody. The rock has been fragmented and silicified over and over again. In the voids can be seen both visible quartz, and with a loupe, drusy quartz. This is called phreatic breccia. John Wilburn wrote that the drusy was the late stage quartz at Goldfield that carried the gold.

I showed him where the breccias were located; I did not know their full extent yet at the time, but I knew enough to show him a large extent of it. The 2 ridges marked by lines in the linked map above are composed mostly of phreatic breccias. The surrounding hills are brecciated also, but not with the degree of drusy silicification of the 2 ridges. The geo was very interested in a boulder of breccia in the bottom of the gulch next to the disturbed area described, and it has since disappeared. He sent me a satellite image later saying that the only thing he found of interest was off of my claims and toward the wilderness area.

Fast forward another few years. A seismic survey was done on 8 suspected sites. 4 of them were sorted out of the 8 with the software provided by Geometrics, and were sent to a geophysicist for full analysis. The type of survey that was done was refraction. This method is good for filled-in pits, because it works well for shallow features and if the ground gets firmer at depth. If there are shallow underground workings that have caved, and there is a depth horizon that is softer and a slower velocity, it’s a bust.

The below is a link to the tomogram(posted before) of the pit where my dad caught the valley fever. Both sub-surface features that are high spots outcrop on the surface. The apparent pit is approximately 120 feet long by 35 to 40 feet deep. The string of geophones was laid out alongside of a pretty steep slope. The draft tomogram the geophysicist completed of this spot showed a pit that was even deeper.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... esults.pdf

So, where is this pit located? At the southern tip of the triangle in the linked photo above.

I am going to go out on a limb here, and do so with great apprehension, but its time. ………. I think it is very likely that this may be the pit that many have searched for, and I've felt that way for years. The ground is more recently disturbed than any other site that was tested or wished would have been tested, and It is more hidden than all of the other suspected sites combined. It is well concealed from Apache Trail to the west but the trail can be seen several miles to the north winding up the hill.

The breccia and chlorite alteration surrounding the indicated pit is excellent material, but the ore shoot is missing.

I have drilled a core hole 50 feet deep near the suspected pit(with Forest Service permission), and it is hole #1 on my website. The core was split, and I still have the other half. It ran a little gold, but if this was a pit as suspected, the hole was outside of the ore chute.

Feel free to check the area out. There are no trip wires or cameras. Just don’t dig any holes; I want to keep the Forest Service happy and don't want to have to fill them in myself.

Cuzzinjack

klondike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by klondike »

Hello Joe,

Are you mellowing out? Perhaps age is catching up on all of us. :D

Correct me if I am wrong but the truth squad has no clue where Travis got the information to carve the H/P stone. Since it didn`t come from the dirt map where did it come from?

Perhaps the H/P stone was put into the mix from an entirely different source. One may call it a gift.

Given the above it maybe that the original maps, etc., are still squirreled away at the Tumlinson property.

Or who knows maybe they were liberated by a whole different group.

Mysteries, mysteries, mysteries.

Klondike

Deducer
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Deducer »

klondike wrote: Correct me if I am wrong but the truth squad has no clue where Travis got the information to carve the H/P stone. Since it didn`t come from the dirt map where did it come from?

Perhaps the H/P stone was put into the mix from an entirely different source. One may call it a gift.
Or perhaps the H/P stone is simply an........ anomaly. :lol:

Somehiker
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Less a gift than the product of a gifted person, whose childhood experiences growing up in a family with a history of treasure hunting, AND stone carving apparently, resulted in his having the imagination, tools, and motive required to pursue his hobby. The newer evidence makes it clear that the H/P stone that we are familiar with is at least as different as the other stones the family saw themselves, and witnessed Travis carving himself, although they say the color was similar to the horse stone in the museum.
In short, this means that whoever has used these stones to arrive at some kind of "conclusion" or "solution" are following the imaginary trails of those who themselves were following in the footsteps of Travis' own imagination and conclusions as to the hide map left by his grandfather.

klondike
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by klondike »

The question is what is the ground of that imagination. What is known:

1. Travis never wavered in his statement that he found the maps.
2. The family has not said they ever saw Travis carve a stone map using the deerskin map as a template.

Given the above is it more likely that a stone map would inspire Travis to carve stones or would a deerskin map inspire Travis to carve stones?

Could not Travis or someone else have found the map and Travis later copied them?

Keep in mind that what we are dealing with here is not just stone maps. Listen carefully to the family interview.

Did Travis copy stone maps with stone and copy paper(deerskin)? likewise.

If so the dirt map maybe no more than a copy of another map and the stone maps maybe no more than a copy of a stone map. If so we may not really know what the original of anything is.

It does seem odd that folks are willing to accept an unfounded assumption that the stone maps are based on the deerskin map and not consider the possiblity that the deerskin map is based on the stone maps. It is hard to say since we are being told that the trail maps have things added to them to lead folks astray while at the same time we are being told the stone maps are simpler and have less than the deerskin map. :D

Maybe we don`t have a clue where those maps came from and the circle just goes around and around and around.

Klondike

Deducer
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Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:02 pm

Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Deducer »

Good questions, Klondike.

Hopefully the "ground map" and other maps that came from Peg Leg will be released to the public soon, so that we can make those judgments for ourselves. Right now, it's hard to come up with any consensus what with all the cherry-picking going on.

Joe Ribaudo
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Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

The one thing I do know about the trail maps is that they depict a specific area of the Superstition Mountains. In addition, they show landmarks and old claims, mines and caves. All are in the proper place and perspective.

I have for many years now said that they may be a hoax. I have half expected to find a note at the end of the trail saying........congratulation, you have found our note. These Stone Maps were not originally drawn by Travis T., but had to be created by someone who spent years in the range. The most likely case, would be someone who lived there. They knew all of the legends and landmarks like the back of their hand.

It's all there on the stones. I could, and did, draw a map of the western end of the range (from memory) that would closely match the Stone Map trail when I was 13-years old. Still have it.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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