Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

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armchair
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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by armchair »

and that someone was ...... Bob Ward?

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

AC,

Why Bob Ward, as opposed to any of the other old timers who were Dutch Hunters? Do you have some evidence that points to Ward?

Thanks,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by armchair »

Joe,

I always had the feeling Bob Ward was involved. The apparent evidence that Tumlinson carved the tablets seems to add to that. I don't have any books with me but here is what I recall:

Tumlinson had done the drive through Arizona multiple times.

He could carve but he didn't know the mountains.

Ward was around when Tumlinson brought the stones to the gas station.

Ward later claimed he found the stones.

In Ward's book he interprets the stones.

In Ward's book he shows he likes to be involved with mysteries, examples buring crosses, buring paintings.


So no proof, just seems to fit better than other possibilities.


Shelby

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Shelby,

Nice job of laying out your argument for the possibility of Bob Ward's involvement.

I know Joe's argument well that the creator of the stone maps was well aquainted with the Superstitions. [Heart Stone, Omega Stone, Manganese deposit, two monuments, Chuck Aylor's Image, Chucks Quotes from Shakespeare (Pluck the heart), etc.]

I'm certainly not to the point where I am willing to speculate about what Travis had to know to carve the stone maps. He may have had nothing more that a topo map.

I do doubt that Travis put a lot of random stuff on his maps and I believe he was trying to say something. It's just nothing that I have dug very deeply into. In short, someone may someday decipher what Travis was trying to indicate. Of course there won't be any treasure. :)

As for Bob Ward's involvement, we have seen a lot of things that point to a time period for Travis carving the maps. 1949 is probably about right.

From Bob's Grave Marker we see that Bob was born in 1933. He would have only been about 16 in 1949. He doesn't seem to fit in the Travis Tumlinson Timeline.

Garry

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Azmula,

I am still digesting parts of your article and it’s great to have something offered, other than more speculation. The e-mails are a treasure.

I have never written an article for publication in a historical journal and I can only guess how difficult that must be. I have been working on the Tumlinson Family Tree for several years and there is always another stone to turn over or a clarification to be discovered. While some treasure hunter’s eyes have already glazed over and they stopped paying attention to the Tumlinson threads a long time ago, I want to keep the Tumlinson genealogy as accurate as possible. It is important in understanding who is saying what and how they fit.

I do want to address a couple or things that crept in the genealogical chart at the end of the article. I’m a detail person and I make no apologies for that. I find that the devil is usually in the details.

Travis’s Tumlinson’s mother, Alice Melvina Leasman, did not die in 1914 but in 1964. I’m sure this was simply a typo. Also Lois Tumlinson Feltner is missing from the tree. She was the sister of Travis and we find her mentioned in the Peck letters and also identified as Alleen’s sister-in-law in the Mitchell and McGee letters. Janie Tumlinson. Travis’s daughter, lived with Herman and Lois Feltner after her parents died. Lois was born in 1914 and died in 1994. She is an important player in the story and would fit in the tree between Gladys and Johnnie.

I’m attaching a copy of Travis’s mother’s obituary and it addresses the two items above. (death date of Alice and it identifies her daughter Lois). There are only 4 children of John and Alice identified, as Travis was not included in the obit since he had died earlier, in 1961.

The Cuero Record, Friday, April 17, 1964

Image

Going a step further, Billy LeWayne Tumlinson is an intriguing entry in your chart as a child of John and Alice. I have not found any reference to this child but it is possible he died young and just doesn’t show up in the records or some Tumlinson researcher had simply placed him in their tree, in place of Lois, in error.

There is a Billy Lowain Tumlinson who was the son of Peter and Gladys Tumlinson. They had one other son, John Edward Tumlinson who died in 1990. Billy matches the Uncle in Victoria reference in the following e-mail.
“If you can talk to your Uncle (deleted by author) in Victoria, he's old enough (my age) he probably remembers seeing your Uncle Travis make those "Stone Maps" in the front yard. He was probably in his early teens at the time”
Billy may well be the only or one of the few persons living who would have observed Travis carving the stone in his mother’s yard in Cuero. It would be exciting to have his observations. You wrote that you have a lot of additional e-mails but it is not clear whether you have been in contact with this Billy. If not, I hope you are pursuing that lead.

If you have contacted Billy or plan to, I would love to see his story. If you haven’t or feel uncomfortable with sharing his memories, I will probably give him a shot. The worst thing that can happen is he can tell me to get lost. Judging by the somewhat unflattering remarks, in another paragraph, by the Uncle who appears to be supplying most of the stories, that may well be what Billy tells me.

Billy Lowain was born in 1941 and if Travis was doing the carvings around 1949, he would have been pretty young, 7 or 8. Although, when I was that age, I know I would have been all over an Uncle carving stones in my yard.

Garry

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Azmula,
You wrote;
“The one thing we do know is that there is another stone map (#4) still in Texas.”
This map (#4) is not mentioned in the three e-mails you included and I assume that this map was mentioned in one or more of your unpublished e-mails? Do you know if the map (#4) mentioned is the so-called Galleon Stone (my nomenclature :)) carved by Travis Tumlinson?

I know I posted the photos of both sides of the Galleon carving earlier in this thread but I’m reposting the photo of the Galleon stone side to insure there is no confusion.

Image

I’m particularly interested in when the Galleon Stone was carved as I am unable to come up with any obvious connection to the other maps that Travis was carving. Did any of the family members add any details about this carving. Anything you can add, no matter how minute would be appreciated.

Garry

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

"I’m particularly interested in when the Galleon Stone was carved as I am unable to come up with any obvious connection to the other maps that Travis was carving. Did any of the family members add any details about this carving. Anything you can add, no matter how minute would be appreciated."

It seems a bit of a stretch to know that Travis was carving pictures into stone, and then just happened, by accident, to stumble on the Stone Maps. 8O Can't imagine the odds.......

Nice work,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

I might think the odds to be about equal to Travis holding a hand worth twenty-one.
After all,would it not be possible for the son of a Treasure Hunter,according to a relative quoted in one of the e-mails,whose grandfather was a well known Treasure Hunter as well,to himself become a Treasure Hunter ?

J.Frank Dobie,researcher,columnist and writer,was the secretary-editor of the Texas Folklore Society for 21 years (1922-1943) and began a program for publication of collections of the history and folklore of Texas and the southwest.
Dobie's position and his research for "Coronado's Children",first published in 1930,likely would have brought him into direct contact with Travis' immediate family,certainly Travis' father.
Travis would have been between 12-19 yrs old at the time (considering publishing timelines for Coronado's Children).
Was John J. Tumlinson,the father,the source of Dobie's information about the waybills mentioned in "Coronado's Children" and derroterro spoken of in "Some Part of Myself" ?
http://books.google.ca/books?id=mPQFEjI ... &q&f=false

I would expect that copies of both books are among the treasures held by more than one current member of the Tumlinson clan.I would also think that John J.,and perhaps even Travis himself would have purchased or recieved copies of "Coronado's Children" at the time of first publication in 1930.Likely that PegLeg's inclusion in the book would have generated both pride and a greater interest in Travis re: his heritage.

I was fortunate that my father,grandfathers,and great grandfather were frequent story tellers when I was a young boy.Many of those stories about their adventures have given me the inspiration to seek my own,sometimes following in their footsteps.So it's easy for me to understand how Travis could have inherited PegLeg's interest in Spanish treasure.

Could his grandfather's tales of searching for Spanish gold have included rumours or details of maps carved in stone ?
If so,I would be surprised if Travis' curiosity did not cause him to try his hand at stone carving,perhaps first on a chimney which he had been assigned to re-point,and later on the Shipstone and yes,possibly even the Stone Maps we can see today.

I can also understand how,given the benefit of PegLeg's research,waybills,and such a derroterro,Travis may have found himself digging stones from the south bank of Queen Creek in 1948-49.

That's why I think the odds to be in Travis' favour.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Let us also not forget the opinions we have all expressed,some for many years,that the Stone Maps were carved by the hands of more than one craftsman.Although our conclusions vary as to the identity of these sculptors,as well as the reasons for there being more than one artist,we have all based our suspicions partly on what we all see as differing styles and workmanship being clearly evident .

I think we all agree as well,and I have yet to see any dissenting theory proposed,that at least one other person added the scratchings and other seemingly more recent additions to the stones.Once again though,opinions vary as to who and when and why.

As other stones appeared,the Stone Crosses and the Latin Heart,they were and continue to be viewed with suspicion by many,based partly on these same factors,as well as the later actions of their finders.Additional fuel has been added to the SC/LH debate by the stories of their destruction at the hands of their respective finders.

It seems incongruous to me,that some who have used the many obvious differences between the Map Stones and the H/P Stone in support of their theories of multiple carvers,while at the same time discounting any similarities among the numbers,letters and symbols used on all except the Latin Heart,would now consider any such similarity (on the Tumlinson Ship Stone) to be strong evidence of Tumlinson having carved the H/P Stone.
So now,for some,do the differences carry less weight than any similarity ?

Regards:SH.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

For me, the fact that Travis carved elaborate pictures in stone and then found the elaborately carved Stone Maps in the middle of the desert, raises a serious red flag. It is, of course, possible but the odds must be staggering. :roll:

I still believe the trail maps are accurate, but no longer believe they lead to any viable mines or treasure. On the other hand, they have been wonderful for the LDM industry. 8O

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

This piece of carved sandstone was given to a friend's father around fifty years ago:

Image

His father was a Dutch Hunter.

Take care,

Joe

I may not have made this clear, in a later post in this topic, but the heart shown here was an example of how easy it would be to create a stone map. It has no meaning, other than that.
Don't waste any time trying to figure out what it means, as it means nothing.

Sorry for any confusion.

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

I was going to post this image of the cover sheet of the Travis Tumlinson manuscript earlier in this thread but I felt it had gone so far off track that it wasn't worthwhile. I did provide an image to Ryan Gordon over on TNET, so it may also show up over there.

It doesn't add to the discussion and is simply a curiosity. It may prove to some that there is actually a Manuscript. :)

Image

I noticed Joe had a picture of a red sandstone carving in the previous post. Looks like the corner is missing. Maybe it's Frank and Ryan's piece they found at the Tumlinson discovery site. :D The color sure looks similar!

Garry

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Garry,

I have been assured it is not the broken off piece you referenced. Other than that, keep up the excellent work you have been doing. You are still the best.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Another to add to the collection of "stone maps".

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy51 ... czre5v.png

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Image

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

novice wrote:I was going to post this image of the cover sheet of the Travis Tumlinson manuscript earlier in this thread but I felt it had gone so far off track that it wasn't worthwhile. I did provide an image to Ryan Gordon over on TNET, so it may also show up over there.

It doesn't add to the discussion and is simply a curiosity. It may prove to some that there is actually a Manuscript. :) Garry
Hi Gary:

You have mentioned having read some of what's inside, and assumed that you were asked not to share any of the content by Janie, or someone else in the Tumlinson family, as being the reason you haven't.
Could you tell us though, based on what you did see, if it is a journal, a manuscript for a book as a true account, or a book as a fictional account only based on his experiences ?
Or is it an article, perhaps meant for a treasure magazine instead ?
I and others I'm sure, are wondering why the hold-back on this important piece of history.

Regards:SH.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

Everyone,

A lot of what I’m about to offer is speculation and could well be wrong.

I will try to expand on what I feel comfortable with regarding the Tumlinson Manuscript and related stories.

I don’t think there is any big conspiracy about why the manuscript is not being made public. It’s kind of like an heirloom that has been in the family for over 50 years and they are protective of it. I have not talked with ANYONE in the family that has any interest in Treasure Hunting. There just doesn’t seem to be much upside for them to be passing it on to the world. Heck, I guess it could even have some monetary value.

While we may think the manuscript is important and possibly critical in understanding the stone’s story, I suspect it would clear up very little other than allow us to cherry pick and spin the words to fit our beliefs. :)

I believe Travis was probably fantasizing about writing a book as many treasure hunters do. The page numbering probably is in the 150 page range, mostly type written. Condensed, it would probably have been winnowed down to about 60 or 70 pages. I also suspect he didn’t have much of a grasp on how much effort, money, etc. it would take to actually get a book published. It was just another unfulfilled dream.

The contents are basically a chronology covering the period of his discovery of the stones (Abt 1949) and his various trips to the Superstitions. I believe the last date of an event is 1958, therefore I believe he was writing the account in the 1959-1960 timeframe.

Also included is a version of the Peralta story and a section of treasure symbols.

I believe there are two manuscripts that have survived, the original of which the photo of the cover (Posted Earlier) was taken and a copy that Janie Tumlinson made from the original in about 2001.

I am attaching an image of the last page of the manuscript. It may provide a little bit of flavor and insight into Travis’s life.

Image

Since the following information is available in Tumlinson family trees on Ancestry.com and in a newspaper, I’m going to post it here. Alice Jane Tumlinson passed away almost three years ago.

The Oklahoman (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma), July 11, 2012

ALICE JONES

Obituary

Aug. 30, 1953 - July 6, 2012 OKLAHOMA CITY Alice "Janie" Jones was born in Hood River, Oregon on August 30, 1953. She went to be with our Lord on July 06, 2012. Janie attended Ozona High School where she met and fell in love with Richard. They married after his return from Vietnam. Janie's passions included interior design, crafting, scrap booking, and her family. Her laughter and smile made the world a better place. She is survived by her husband Richard Jones, children (Kevin, Tiffany, and Derrick and their families), 10 grandchildren, and a great grandson. Services will be Thursday, July 12, at 7 p.m. at Daybreak Community Church, 2217 S. Fretz, Edmond, OK.


The next time we visit the relatives (Don’t know when that will be) we hope to gain some additional clarity about the contents and possible long term plans for the manuscript.

I have tried to be honest, open and objective here but I’m sure I have come up short in the eyes of many. :D

Garry

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Thanks Gary, for a very nice reply as usual.
As you say, while it may not be a "game changer" in the sense that he was trying to share his own experiences and ideas within the parameters of what he probably wanted to be a book about his "adventure" with the stones, it might give us a better understanding of his personality perhaps, and motivations as well as firmer grasp of the time line. I can understand your feeling that it's more of a personal thing with the family, rather than a wish to keep the manuscript hidden from view. That they allowed you to read it and photograph the cover is more than enough evidence of that.

Thanks again:
Wayne

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

I was rereading the last page of the manuscript and I did note a couple of things of interest to me that I hadn't really paid much attention to before.

What did Travis mean by his use of the word souvenirs? What souvenirs?

Also the mention of the Thunder Gods. I strongly suspect that Travis was very familiar with the Barry Storm accounts in his book, Thunder Gods Gold. This may have even been the catalyst that stoked his interest in the Superstitions and their treasures. Travis wouldn't have been the first as Storm's books excited a "lot" of people in the 1940's.

Garry

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Thank you for all that you have done. I think our little group has done a lot to shine some sunlight of truth on the LDM legends.

If you see Richard Jones, make sure you welcome him home for me. Viet Nam, like the LDM, is something that binds many of us together.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

One other thing......A number of years ago, Gene Reynolds was complaining to me that he couldn't get his book published. Since it was all on his computer, I finally talked him into putting it on a CD and selling that. He did that and ended up selling quite a few.

Perhaps the manuscript could generate a little income for the family, without much trouble.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

"Souvenirs" = "Stones" IMO.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I posted this on DUSA and Tnet tonight:

For some time now, I have had my doubts that the Stone Maps would lead anyone to a treasure or viable mine. That's not to say that the locations marked on the maps have never led to anything of importance, perhaps after the fact.

As more information has come out concerning the stones themselves, including Travis carving them, I have wondered how he could have made such accurate maps without spending years in the range. Not only are the maps topographically (for the most part) accurate, but the stories and legends of the Superstition Mountains are woven into them.

The most likely scenario here, is that Travis was sold a map, not stone, and he found a number of clues that convinced him it was a true waybill. One of the people he met around the mountains had to be the author. After following the map and finding many of the symbols and markers right where the map showed them, and yet no treasure.

His supposed area of search was away from the area he actually searched, as he still felt something might be there. He came to realize that a book and some dramatic forms of the map's were his path to some measure of wealth. They would finance his real area of interest. He never found a buyer or completed his book before his death. It was his wife who finally found a "sucker".

Just one man's theory.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo.

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:I posted this on DUSA and Tnet tonight:

For some time now, I have had my doubts that the Stone Maps would lead anyone to a treasure or viable mine. That's not to say that the locations marked on the maps have never led to anything of importance, perhaps after the fact.

As more information has come out concerning the stones themselves, including Travis carving them, I have wondered how he could have made such accurate maps without spending years in the range. Not only are the maps topographically (for the most part) accurate, but the stories and legends of the Superstition Mountains are woven into them.

The most likely scenario here, is that Travis was sold a map, not stone, and he found a number of clues that convinced him it was a true waybill. One of the people he met around the mountains had to be the author. After following the map and finding many of the symbols and markers right where the map showed them, and yet no treasure.

His supposed area of search was away from the area he actually searched, as he still felt something might be there. He came to realize that a book and some dramatic forms of the map's were his path to some measure of wealth. They would finance his real area of interest. He never found a buyer or completed his book before his death. It was his wife who finally found a "sucker".

Just one man's theory.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo.
One man's educated and informed theory you might say, not a bad one at that. Nice post Joe!
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Except,

Travis T kept the existence of the Stone Maps pretty much a secret for the entire time he owned them (about twelve years).

Joe,

Please check your source that told you the he knew someone that Travis tried selling the Stone Maps to. Is he certain it was Travis Tumlinson and not Travis Marlowe? What year did this take place? In all the years I have been researching the Stone Maps, I have not found ONE PERSON that has said that Travis T EVER tried to sell the Stone Maps.

On the other hand, Travis Marlowe (Clarence O Mitchell) tried to sell them on more than one documented occasion. I think it is more likely that your source's friend was talking about Travis Marlowe and not Travis Tumlinson.

Mike

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