LDM, What are we really looking for?

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alan m
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LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by alan m »

There has been a lot of stuff flying around on this site and most of it is great information.
Many thanks to all of you who have contributed to the pool of information about the Lost Dutchman.
I just need to sort it out and get back to the clear picture. These are the facts as I know them, feel free to correct me if I err.
Jacob Waltz had a gold mine, a very rich one.
He claimed that it was in the Superstition Mountains, and in all likelyhood, it was.
No one has yet been able to locate it.
So my question is this. How did He find it? and how did he do so repeatedly!
I have hiked and planned numerous trips into those mountains and cannot see how Jacob could have gotten into them from Phoenix and back again in 3 or 4 days.
He took a mule along so he would have had to have taken a route that included La Barge Canyon, since most of the other shorter and more direct trails are not suited for pack animals.
Excluding all of the evidence that indicates minning activity within the Superstitions, it looks as if Jacobs mine was in Goldfield.
Any comments?
Alan
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Oroblanco
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by Oroblanco »

Alan M wrote
feel free to correct me if I err.
OK amigo but don't say you didn't ask for that! (heh heh just kidding amigo, very good post!)

<you wrote>
How did He find it? and how did he do so repeatedly!
You have hit at the heart of the matter, for if the Peralta story is not true then Waltz found the mine by some other means. How did he return to the mine, which must have been difficult for him to have made that warning to Reiney about "that mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" On the other hand if the Peralta story is true, how did they locate the mine in the first place?

Was it the landmarks, that he used to pick his way back to the mine, and hence those clues should have paramount importance, or was it just a matter of getting to the right canyon? I look forward to the replies to your questions, and wish I had the answers to them.

Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
alan m
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by alan m »

Lets go for round two
To the best of my recollection, as I do not have the benefit of my library with me, Jacob Waltz discovered the mine sometime around 1873 or therebouts, he died in 1898 or 99.
That gives us about 30 years and he only made a few trips to the mine.
Once when young Petrasch tried to follow him
Once when he first discovered the mine
twice more according to witnesses who claimed to have seen him in or around the mountains.
Now if the mine was as rich as he is reported to have claimed then he must have taken out at least 100 pounds of gold ore.
His mule could carry 100 to 150 pounds of stuff per trip.
100 pounds is 1600 ounces which would have made him a very rich man, yet he lived as if he was on a pension.
This can only mean that each time he went into the mountains he must not have gone to the mine each time.
Is it possible that the mine became lost even to him?

Best regards
Alan
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by Cubfan64 »

alan m wrote:Lets go for round two
To the best of my recollection, as I do not have the benefit of my library with me, Jacob Waltz discovered the mine sometime around 1873 or therebouts, he died in 1898 or 99.
That gives us about 30 years and he only made a few trips to the mine.
Once when young Petrasch tried to follow him
Once when he first discovered the mine
twice more according to witnesses who claimed to have seen him in or around the mountains.
Now if the mine was as rich as he is reported to have claimed then he must have taken out at least 100 pounds of gold ore.
His mule could carry 100 to 150 pounds of stuff per trip.
100 pounds is 1600 ounces which would have made him a very rich man, yet he lived as if he was on a pension.
This can only mean that each time he went into the mountains he must not have gone to the mine each time.
Is it possible that the mine became lost even to him?

Best regards
Alan
Waltz died in 1891 and it was Dick Holmes who tried to follow him once, not Petrasch.

100 pounds is 1600 ounces, but how much of that was gold? I won't argue that it wasn't rich ore, but there's absolutely no way to know how much actual gold value he removed from the mine, how much he brought back with him and how much he cached in the mountains or elsewhere.
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by djui5 »

Oroblanco wrote:
You have hit at the heart of the matter, for if the Peralta story is not true then Waltz found the mine by some other means.

IF the Peralta story isn't true and he didn't find out about the mine through someone else, then he found the mine the same way anyone found a mine in those days, panning the creeks until you found the source of the Gold.

100lbs of raw Gold would equal 1,458 ounces, which would equate to around $1,657,724 IF it was 18K in its raw form at the current spot price. That is very pure Gold in it's raw form and would equate to about 75% pure Gold. Most Gold found in ore is 50% or so pure, unless it is found in a Telluride/etc which it is then even less pure. After seeing pictures of what Holmes claimed was found under Waltz's death bed I would bet it should be close to 18K pure in its raw form.

100lbs of hand cobbled rich ore would equal far less Gold, maybe 10-30lbs if it was SUPER rich like Dutchman ore is supposed to be. In the case of most mines we're talking about less than an ounce of raw Gold in a 100lbs of ore.

Hope that helps.
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ

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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by Oroblanco »

Very good posts - I would only add that one estimate of Dutchman ore, hand cobbed, was that it ran about one-fourth gold.
Oroblanco
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Randy,

I am not certain about typical gold values for AZ, but there are some places in Ca (Feather River for one) where raw nuggets are almost 100% pure. Mostly in SoCal it runs about 70% gold, 15% silver, 10% copper, and 5% other.

Also, we can't work the problem of how the pit was discovered like a mathematical equation. We only have one part of a three part equation. If we knew the location of the mine, we would then work backwards and see what clues are real, and what trails would have been used.

Mike
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by djui5 »

Mike McChesney wrote:Randy,

I am not certain about typical gold values for AZ, but there are some places in Ca (Feather River for one) where raw nuggets are almost 100% pure. Mostly in SoCal it runs about 70% gold, 15% silver, 10% copper, and 5% other.


Mike
I would believe that, and I'm sure AZ nuggets are similar though I believe have less pure Gold because AZ nuggets/pickers/dinks are darker in color than CA nuggets/pickers/etc. That is different than discussing ore taken from a vein IMO. Nuggets of Gold are deposited directly from a decomposed vein where nature does all the work of removing the rocks surrounding the Gold for you. In a vein, usually, there are some other metals you have to deal with usually in a larger quantity than if you found a nugget down stream somewhere. I hope that makes sense, and it's just my opinion from my personal mining experiences. Take the Cripple Creek mine in Colorado for example, you couldn't tell there was Gold in the vein material until you heated it up and released the Gold from the Telluride, where it would ooze out. That musta been a sight when the miners discovered it sitting around a camp fire. 8O 8O

Then there are special mines, like the 16 to 1 mine where the Gold is not only very pure in it's natural state in the quartz vein, but it is Crystallized in places meaning the specimens can be worth 2-10 times the spot value of Gold.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
cuzzinjack
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Alan,

I asked myself the same question over 6 years ago, and the conclusion was drawn that without the geology to support the legends, they would remain legends. After many pairs of boots and lots of desk-time, a geologic puzzle was gradually pieced together. It is hoped that you enjoy this site as much as I did building it.

mollymarieprospect.com

Dan Welch
alan m
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by alan m »

Hello Dan
Thank-you for the interest and the link, I know I will enjoy it.
As you may know the story of Waltz and the "Facts" around the Lost Dutchman get larger and more numerous every year.
The recent so called authentic manuscripts which claim to be the key info and final truth about the legend are just one example of how muddied the field has become.
Regardless of how loud some claim their version is close to the truth, the only thing that can be taken as true is the reality of the geology, and anyone who has ever toyed with the exercise of hard rock mining must have realized that the work was way beyond the capabilities of Jacob Waltz.
With that said, Waltz did produce gold and there is evidence of mining activity within the Superstition Mountains. The only conclusion that I am comfortable with is that Waltz recovered high grade ore which had been previously mined.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hi Alan,

It is hoped that you have been able to review the site. Other than the Bulldog, no other reasonable geologic possibilities are known to have been presented by others. Yes, there is a mountain of anecdotal evidence, and too many pieces fit together that indicate there was a large mine, not a Bulldog.

Two common items of the day should remain that neither time nor tourists could erase: buckshot, the bane of Apaches, and botijo shards. It is a maddening experience to find the buckshot among the modern day bullets, but it is there. Can the age of the buckshot be proven? No, although some is made of fairly impure lead given the conchoidal fractures. But the un-glazed Botijo shards? The piece I’m looking at is large, 3” x4”, came from a pot easily over 3 foot in diameter, and is only about 3/16” thick. I have read where the Botijo reached a temperature cold enough to keep milk safely cool, and the larger the Botijo was, the longer it could keep cool after the sun went down. Even though they were hung in a web to help prevent their bursting, they must have broken on a regular basis. This is not the same red-on-buff pottery of native origin. The botijo shards have been found at 2 different locations in relative abundance, and the shards are difficult to see as they blend in perfectly with the soil. It would seem that the batijo would have been as indispensable at the shaft collars or at campo trabajadoras as the air conditioner or swamp cooler is in our homes today. Do you know of anyone that has come across these items or to these conclusions before?

Dan
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by Cubfan64 »

cuzzinjack wrote:Hi Alan,

It is hoped that you have been able to review the site. Other than the Bulldog, no other reasonable geologic possibilities are known to have been presented by others. Yes, there is a mountain of anecdotal evidence, and too many pieces fit together that indicate there was a large mine, not a Bulldog.

Two common items of the day should remain that neither time nor tourists could erase: buckshot, the bane of Apaches, and botijo shards. It is a maddening experience to find the buckshot among the modern day bullets, but it is there. Can the age of the buckshot be proven? No, although some is made of fairly impure lead given the conchoidal fractures. But the un-glazed Botijo shards? The piece I’m looking at is large, 3” x4”, came from a pot easily over 3 foot in diameter, and is only about 3/16” thick. I have read where the Botijo reached a temperature cold enough to keep milk safely cool, and the larger the Botijo was, the longer it could keep cool after the sun went down. Even though they were hung in a web to help prevent their bursting, they must have broken on a regular basis. This is not the same red-on-buff pottery of native origin. The botijo shards have been found at 2 different locations in relative abundance, and the shards are difficult to see as they blend in perfectly with the soil. It would seem that the batijo would have been as indispensable at the shaft collars or at campo trabajadoras as the air conditioner or swamp cooler is in our homes today. Do you know of anyone that has come across these items or to these conclusions before?

Dan
Dan,

I never took a geology class in high school or college, so much of the geology discussion on your website goes in one ear and out the other, so I have to leave a critique of the specifics of the Mollie Marie prospect to other folks, however....

I have to say your presentation of information, extent of field work and general documentation are very impressive and extremely well done. I hope you're able to pursue this much more and I wish you the best in your venture!
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by cuzzinjack »

Thank you Cubfan,

Your compliments are greatly appreciated. It is very intimidating to present this information to such a knowledgeable audience, yourself included. I find the subject utterly fascinating.

Sincerely,

Dan
alan m
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by alan m »

Hello Dan
I love your site :D , as for the sherds, I have found numerous sherds and other artifacts from what appears to be early spanish, at a site I discovered which can only be a base camp. I am not familier with batijo or its composition. I studied early indian potery in college and as you know there are only three ways in which a sherd can be identified;
Location where it was found, assuming it has not been unnaturally transported, its decoration and third its composition, which usually must be analyzed under a microscope.
As for the site I am speaking of, I have not had a chance, nor taken the risk of excavating for anything more substantial, as my finds have all been on the surface, but it is within the park boundries and as such nothing can be dug or taken, but it can be analyzed at the site.
It is my conclusion, after many years and miles of research, that Waltz found a stash spot of previously mined gold awaiting transport at this site which I found, I have not however forud his source of gold but have only surveyed about 10% of the area.
I have posted some photos but they have not drawn any real interest from anyone else on this site.
I will put together some of these photos and send them to your E-Mail for your inspection.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: LDM, What are we really looking for?

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hi Alan,

I've been in Wyoming and have not been close to a computer. Brrr, it is cold up here. It is very fortuitous that you have studied sherds. I re-examined mine with a tape measure before this trip, and the largest piece would have been from a pot right at 30 inches in diameter. My "guesstimator" needs to be re-calibrated. The largest piece is large enough to be subjected to a water test. After placing water on the inner side(it is concave enough to pool) the water seeps through after a few minutes to the other side as a Batijo is supposed to. The pottery is unglazed and unmarked, but does have charcoal markings from being fired. There is a piece of rim that was found that was from a large diameter opening, so was from a large open-topped batijo. I look forward to your photos of the sherds you have found to compare and will return some also. There is a painting,"Thirst", dated 1886 that depicts a more modern batijo. Mollymarieprospect.com was hit pretty hard for 4 or 5 days, and am glad that so many are interested in geology.

Sincerely,

Dan
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