Gentlemen,
I have not followed the Forum for some time. Too much else going on with the new books. The other day, however, a colleague who is giving a radio presentation about the Dutchman in Europe asked me for some information. One of his queries I could not answer concerned the story of the skull of Waltz's nephew. The story I have is that the Dick Holmes uncovered the skeleton to try and confirm the story he said Waltz had told him. Then later someone else exhumed the remains and took the skull. The skull supposedly then made its way to Doc Jones -- who may or may not have been the person who dug it up. (He had a ranch in the area.). I understand that Jones kept the skull for some time. This is about all I have on this matter. My friend wanted to know if: i) if there is any confirmation of the story? ii) does anyone know the whereabouts of the skull now? and iii) or, are there any clues to its current whereabouts?
Thank you,
Thomas
The Skull
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Thomas Glover
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Re: The Skull
Thomas,
This is an area I have not researched but from a couple of posts that appeared on Peter’s Forum, I got the impression that the story was far from cut and dried. The only reason I have any familiarity with the story is because I have recently been reading some Dane Coolidge books and in Arizona Cowboys, it was Doc W. W. Jones that had the ranch of which you spoke.
According to Kevin there were two Dr. Joneses involved with the skull and two differnet people calimed to have found it. W. W. Jones did not have the skull?
Kevin was the poster and, if he shared it, I believe he has sources for his references.
Hopefully he still looks in and can share the sources. Below are excerpts from his posts.
Kevin, 12-10-2006, 04:50 AM
Agua Escondida is located somewhere to the sothwest of Four Peaks.
This is the place where Waltz camped with, then shot and buried, his nephew.
The place where either Dick Holmes or Dan Frank dug up a skull which ended up in "Little Dr. Jones" office.
Kevin, 12-10-2006, 04:32 PM
As I understand the history there were two Dr. Jones. The one you are referring to was W.W. Jones of Tempe. He was known as “Big Dr. Jones” to distinguish him conversationally from Dr. Charles Jones who was known as “Little Dr. Jones.”
It was “Little Dr. Jones” who ended up with the skull as a curio in his office.
The other man who claimed to have found the skull was Dan Frank. In 1895 Dan married Maggie who was “ Big Dr. Jones’s” daughter. The Dr. Jones which owned the “Hidden Water” ranch which Waltz said he traveled to or camped by (or shot his nephew at).
As for Poncho, his daughter was “Esposa” (wife) to “Big Dr. Jones.” This occurred while they were at the Vulture Mine. So said Ramon Valencia in 1938. A man, who was in Arizona from the beginning of the Anglo presence. Possibly before. I’m sure most are familiar with his last name.
Good Luck,
Garry
This is an area I have not researched but from a couple of posts that appeared on Peter’s Forum, I got the impression that the story was far from cut and dried. The only reason I have any familiarity with the story is because I have recently been reading some Dane Coolidge books and in Arizona Cowboys, it was Doc W. W. Jones that had the ranch of which you spoke.
According to Kevin there were two Dr. Joneses involved with the skull and two differnet people calimed to have found it. W. W. Jones did not have the skull?
Kevin was the poster and, if he shared it, I believe he has sources for his references.
Hopefully he still looks in and can share the sources. Below are excerpts from his posts.
Kevin, 12-10-2006, 04:50 AM
Agua Escondida is located somewhere to the sothwest of Four Peaks.
This is the place where Waltz camped with, then shot and buried, his nephew.
The place where either Dick Holmes or Dan Frank dug up a skull which ended up in "Little Dr. Jones" office.
Kevin, 12-10-2006, 04:32 PM
As I understand the history there were two Dr. Jones. The one you are referring to was W.W. Jones of Tempe. He was known as “Big Dr. Jones” to distinguish him conversationally from Dr. Charles Jones who was known as “Little Dr. Jones.”
It was “Little Dr. Jones” who ended up with the skull as a curio in his office.
The other man who claimed to have found the skull was Dan Frank. In 1895 Dan married Maggie who was “ Big Dr. Jones’s” daughter. The Dr. Jones which owned the “Hidden Water” ranch which Waltz said he traveled to or camped by (or shot his nephew at).
As for Poncho, his daughter was “Esposa” (wife) to “Big Dr. Jones.” This occurred while they were at the Vulture Mine. So said Ramon Valencia in 1938. A man, who was in Arizona from the beginning of the Anglo presence. Possibly before. I’m sure most are familiar with his last name.
Good Luck,
Garry
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
Here, we arrive at one of those points where your opinion depends on which camp you sit in!
1. If you are of the mind that Jim Bark and Sims Ely extracted the truth from Julia Thomas, and Waltz told her and Rhiney the truth, then there is no way Jacob Weiser's Skull could have possibly been found where it supposedly was. Waltz never saw Weiser again after he left for supplies, and Doctor Walker would never have so unceremoniously buried Weiser after having been killed by Apache Arrows (especially after him giving Walker the map).
2. If you believe the story that Dick Holmes told, then it is possible, due to the fact that Waltz supposedly told him that he had shot Weiser in the head and buried him under an overhang along a creek.
So, either the story about Weiser and Doc Walker OR the story as told by Dick Holmes is a complete lie. Is there any way to tell absolutely which version is true?
Best-Mike
1. If you are of the mind that Jim Bark and Sims Ely extracted the truth from Julia Thomas, and Waltz told her and Rhiney the truth, then there is no way Jacob Weiser's Skull could have possibly been found where it supposedly was. Waltz never saw Weiser again after he left for supplies, and Doctor Walker would never have so unceremoniously buried Weiser after having been killed by Apache Arrows (especially after him giving Walker the map).
2. If you believe the story that Dick Holmes told, then it is possible, due to the fact that Waltz supposedly told him that he had shot Weiser in the head and buried him under an overhang along a creek.
So, either the story about Weiser and Doc Walker OR the story as told by Dick Holmes is a complete lie. Is there any way to tell absolutely which version is true?
Best-Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Skull
Mike,
I'm not at home right now but as I remember the story, Waltz's nephew and Jacob Weiser are two different stories completely. Are you getting them confused, or is my poor memory getting worse?
Take care,
Joe
I'm not at home right now but as I remember the story, Waltz's nephew and Jacob Weiser are two different stories completely. Are you getting them confused, or is my poor memory getting worse?
Take care,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
Joe,
It has always been my impression (please correct me if I am wrong) that they were one in the same. Some stories claim he was a nephew and some claim he was a boyhood friend whose family moved with the Waltz Family from Germany in 1848, while "The Holmes Manuscript" states that Waltz wrote his sister in Germany to send his nephew over.
So do we have two Jacob Weiss (Weiser) that worked with Waltz? One a nephew and one a friend?
The story that Waltz told Julia Thomas makes no mention of any nephew from Germany. Only that he and his family friend Jacob Weiser were involved.
I have always assumed that some people claimed Weiser was Waltz' nephew like so many people have said that Robert Tumlinson was Travis' Brother (when in fact he was his uncle).
In either case, the argument is still the same. Thomas' version is at 180 degree direct odds with what Holmes claimed Waltz told him. Both stories can not be true. In Holmes' Version, even the story of how Waltz found his mine was completely at odds with the version Thomas told.
Like I said before, it all depends on which camp you sit in (Thomas or Holmes). Did Dick steal the gold or did Waltz give it to him? Did Waltz murder three Mexicans and later send for his nephew, or did waltz and Weiser help out Peralta and get temporary title to the mine? Did Waltz go for supplies only to return and find the camp destroyed (never to see his partner Weiser again), or did he shoot him in the head?
There are tons more irreconcilable differences. Who do you believe? The only possibility in which both sides can coexist is that maybe Waltz didn't want his friend Julia Thomas to think the worse of him, and told her the nice story about Peralta giving him title to the mine and told Dick Holmes the true story because he was so close to death and wanted to admit the truth? Do you believe that? It is possible, but would you REALLY believe that?
Just my two cents-Mike
It has always been my impression (please correct me if I am wrong) that they were one in the same. Some stories claim he was a nephew and some claim he was a boyhood friend whose family moved with the Waltz Family from Germany in 1848, while "The Holmes Manuscript" states that Waltz wrote his sister in Germany to send his nephew over.
So do we have two Jacob Weiss (Weiser) that worked with Waltz? One a nephew and one a friend?
The story that Waltz told Julia Thomas makes no mention of any nephew from Germany. Only that he and his family friend Jacob Weiser were involved.
I have always assumed that some people claimed Weiser was Waltz' nephew like so many people have said that Robert Tumlinson was Travis' Brother (when in fact he was his uncle).
In either case, the argument is still the same. Thomas' version is at 180 degree direct odds with what Holmes claimed Waltz told him. Both stories can not be true. In Holmes' Version, even the story of how Waltz found his mine was completely at odds with the version Thomas told.
Like I said before, it all depends on which camp you sit in (Thomas or Holmes). Did Dick steal the gold or did Waltz give it to him? Did Waltz murder three Mexicans and later send for his nephew, or did waltz and Weiser help out Peralta and get temporary title to the mine? Did Waltz go for supplies only to return and find the camp destroyed (never to see his partner Weiser again), or did he shoot him in the head?
There are tons more irreconcilable differences. Who do you believe? The only possibility in which both sides can coexist is that maybe Waltz didn't want his friend Julia Thomas to think the worse of him, and told her the nice story about Peralta giving him title to the mine and told Dick Holmes the true story because he was so close to death and wanted to admit the truth? Do you believe that? It is possible, but would you REALLY believe that?
Just my two cents-Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Skull
Mike,
There is only one thing I believe about the Holmes Manuscript......as it pertains to Jacob Waltz. That would be where Brownie states he did not write it.
Is there some part of the manuscript, where it talks about Waltz, that you feel is close to factual? If so, what is it, and why do you think it's true.....If you can say?
Take care,
Joe
There is only one thing I believe about the Holmes Manuscript......as it pertains to Jacob Waltz. That would be where Brownie states he did not write it.
Is there some part of the manuscript, where it talks about Waltz, that you feel is close to factual? If so, what is it, and why do you think it's true.....If you can say?
Take care,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
Joe,
I believe that you and I feel the same way regarding the Holmes Manuscript (almost). I think that Holmes may have written the original, but someone else came in after the fact and took a lot of poetic license with the facts. I tend to believe Thomas Glover when he says that Holmes was seen sitting at his typewriter writing it and talking to family members about it. I think he might have seen the final product and said he didn't write "THAT"!
I think it is possible that Holmes' original manuscript is sitting in someone's locked file cabinet or safe deposit box right now, not likely to ever see the light of day.
Just like the Original Bark Notes. The collection of interviews and notes written by Jim Bark are sitting under lock and key. They will likely never be made public unless the DLM is found and their only value becomes historical.
Mike
I believe that you and I feel the same way regarding the Holmes Manuscript (almost). I think that Holmes may have written the original, but someone else came in after the fact and took a lot of poetic license with the facts. I tend to believe Thomas Glover when he says that Holmes was seen sitting at his typewriter writing it and talking to family members about it. I think he might have seen the final product and said he didn't write "THAT"!
I think it is possible that Holmes' original manuscript is sitting in someone's locked file cabinet or safe deposit box right now, not likely to ever see the light of day.
Just like the Original Bark Notes. The collection of interviews and notes written by Jim Bark are sitting under lock and key. They will likely never be made public unless the DLM is found and their only value becomes historical.
Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
Joe,
Also, if the nephew Weiss (Weiser) was a different person than the friend/partner Weiss (Weiser), then why doesn't Ely mention the nephew in his book (or the Bark Notes), and why does Holmes talk about his Nephew and not his friend/partner? If they were two separate people, surely one of Bark/Ely's Sources would have said something about the nephew? Surely Dick Holmes would have known about Waltz' Partner?
Common sense tells me that both Jacobs are the same person (otherwise we have a TV Show "The Three Jakes"). It is just that over the years and the many retellings (just like the game of telephone), one person has split into two.
If the actual skull were found and DNA testing could confirm its owner, that would be a big shot in the arm for the Holmes Camp. As it stands, there is no (Public) evidence to prove the existence of a Nephew Weiss (Weiser), but the ships manifest from Helen Corbin's Book does show a Jacob C Weiss from the same town in Germany as Jacob Waltz, and the names are just two lines apart. To me, that shoots down the Nephew version.
Mike
Also, if the nephew Weiss (Weiser) was a different person than the friend/partner Weiss (Weiser), then why doesn't Ely mention the nephew in his book (or the Bark Notes), and why does Holmes talk about his Nephew and not his friend/partner? If they were two separate people, surely one of Bark/Ely's Sources would have said something about the nephew? Surely Dick Holmes would have known about Waltz' Partner?
Common sense tells me that both Jacobs are the same person (otherwise we have a TV Show "The Three Jakes"). It is just that over the years and the many retellings (just like the game of telephone), one person has split into two.
If the actual skull were found and DNA testing could confirm its owner, that would be a big shot in the arm for the Holmes Camp. As it stands, there is no (Public) evidence to prove the existence of a Nephew Weiss (Weiser), but the ships manifest from Helen Corbin's Book does show a Jacob C Weiss from the same town in Germany as Jacob Waltz, and the names are just two lines apart. To me, that shoots down the Nephew version.
Mike
Re: The Skull
Thomas Glover,
In Brownie Holmes manuscript, Story of The Lost Dutchman by George Brownie Holmes Phoenix Arizona 1944, on page 13 he writes:
"Somehow I got to hating him as if he was a bitter enemy instead of a nephew. That night we camped at Agua Escondido, we had a terrible argument the worst we'd had before. Next morning he said he I'm going to record the mine myself, whether you want to or not. I shot him in the forehead between the eyes.... I then took a piece of chain and put it around his neck and dragged him under a shelving rock where the dirt was soft .... I dug a grave and buried him there."
On page 18 Brownie writes : " My father recalled the story of Waltz having murdered his own nephew and in order to prove or disprove the story went to Agua Escondido. There he searched for and found the grave of the young German, just as it had been described to him. He came upon the skeleton of the nephew with the chain around the neck...... The skull seperated itself from the other bones and he (father) picked it up and returned to Phoenix with renewed confidence in the death-bed story of old man waltz. While passing through Tempe he stopped for a few moments at his old friend Doc Jones house and left the skull with him.
Others here are a LOT more knowledgeable than myself about the history but in my opinion I believe the Doc Jones had to be WW Jones (Wilson Walker Jones) because he had a house and in 1892 his family lived in Tempe and the other doc "Charles Jones" ? did not. ??
I believe Wilson Jones wife name was Arcadia (Montano), not Esposa (Monroy).
In 1891-1894 the period Dick Holmes would have been to Agua Escondido looking for the nephew's skull, Doc Jones was running cattle there but also was running a tuberculosis sanitarium at the ranch at Agua Escondido. He had a house in Tempe where his wife and children lived and went to school.
The three questions you asked were : 1. Can the story be confirmed ? 2. Where is the skull today ? 3. Are there any clues to it's current whereabouts ?
I can't help you with those answers but know someone who might be able to help.
Lillie Parra Moraga is the great great grandaughter of Doc WW Jones and lives in Tempe.
If you are familiar with where Greg Davis lives, you could throw a rock from Mr. Davis house and hit Moraga's yard.
If you are interested, PM me as I have her address and phone number, but would ask you be discrete and respectful as she is up in years and proud of her history and has had some bad experiences with some people.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
In Brownie Holmes manuscript, Story of The Lost Dutchman by George Brownie Holmes Phoenix Arizona 1944, on page 13 he writes:
"Somehow I got to hating him as if he was a bitter enemy instead of a nephew. That night we camped at Agua Escondido, we had a terrible argument the worst we'd had before. Next morning he said he I'm going to record the mine myself, whether you want to or not. I shot him in the forehead between the eyes.... I then took a piece of chain and put it around his neck and dragged him under a shelving rock where the dirt was soft .... I dug a grave and buried him there."
On page 18 Brownie writes : " My father recalled the story of Waltz having murdered his own nephew and in order to prove or disprove the story went to Agua Escondido. There he searched for and found the grave of the young German, just as it had been described to him. He came upon the skeleton of the nephew with the chain around the neck...... The skull seperated itself from the other bones and he (father) picked it up and returned to Phoenix with renewed confidence in the death-bed story of old man waltz. While passing through Tempe he stopped for a few moments at his old friend Doc Jones house and left the skull with him.
Others here are a LOT more knowledgeable than myself about the history but in my opinion I believe the Doc Jones had to be WW Jones (Wilson Walker Jones) because he had a house and in 1892 his family lived in Tempe and the other doc "Charles Jones" ? did not. ??
I believe Wilson Jones wife name was Arcadia (Montano), not Esposa (Monroy).
In 1891-1894 the period Dick Holmes would have been to Agua Escondido looking for the nephew's skull, Doc Jones was running cattle there but also was running a tuberculosis sanitarium at the ranch at Agua Escondido. He had a house in Tempe where his wife and children lived and went to school.
The three questions you asked were : 1. Can the story be confirmed ? 2. Where is the skull today ? 3. Are there any clues to it's current whereabouts ?
I can't help you with those answers but know someone who might be able to help.
Lillie Parra Moraga is the great great grandaughter of Doc WW Jones and lives in Tempe.
If you are familiar with where Greg Davis lives, you could throw a rock from Mr. Davis house and hit Moraga's yard.
If you are interested, PM me as I have her address and phone number, but would ask you be discrete and respectful as she is up in years and proud of her history and has had some bad experiences with some people.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Skull
Back in 2005, Garry started a topic named: "Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest". It went on for quite some time. A number of people, including myself, did a lot of research into the "Olbers Manifest", with Garry and Larry doing the heavy lifting....as I remember.Mike McChesney wrote:Joe,
Also, if the nephew Weiss (Weiser) was a different person than the friend/partner Weiss (Weiser), then why doesn't Ely mention the nephew in his book (or the Bark Notes), and why does Holmes talk about his Nephew and not his friend/partner? If they were two separate people, surely one of Bark/Ely's Sources would have said something about the nephew? Surely Dick Holmes would have known about Waltz' Partner?
Common sense tells me that both Jacobs are the same person (otherwise we have a TV Show "The Three Jakes"). It is just that over the years and the many retellings (just like the game of telephone), one person has split into two.
If the actual skull were found and DNA testing could confirm its owner, that would be a big shot in the arm for the Holmes Camp. As it stands, there is no (Public) evidence to prove the existence of a Nephew Weiss (Weiser), but the ships manifest from Helen Corbin's Book does show a Jacob C Weiss from the same town in Germany as Jacob Waltz, and the names are just two lines apart. To me, that shoots down the Nephew version.
Mike
The final conclusion for many of us, was that the manifest was fake. I believe most of the reasons were discussed in the topic. One of my biggest doubts today, comes from who the source of the document was. That person has become suspect for any historical documents he has provided, that do not have an independent source that is reliable and trusted.
Helen and Bob Corbin trusted that source, which is why she included it, as well as many other "facts" into her "Bible". That person knows local history forwards and backwards. He can recite the names and lineage of pioneer families and where they lived and live today with ease. I'm not sure you could find a better source for that information.
When it comes to historical documents that he has brought to the table, and personal information known only to him......"Caveat emptor!"
I don't doubt Thomas' belief in what Brownie's family told him, and it may very well be true. I have been told by a good friend, and he would know, that Brownie denied the manuscript right up to his death. I have thought along the same lines that you are thinking for years. Only difference is, I think someone else wrote the Waltz information, and Brownie wrote the personal Holmes information as well as his personal experiences while searching for the LDM.
That would account for the families seeing Brownie working on the story. I believe Thomas may have a different opinion on that theory, and he would be the best authority. After all, he spoke directly to the family.
Take care,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
That's very interesting Joe.
Did you confirm that Mrs Corbin got that list from the "he who must not be named"? HAHAHA In the book, she credits the ISTG not an individual for the manifest.
Mike
Did you confirm that Mrs Corbin got that list from the "he who must not be named"? HAHAHA In the book, she credits the ISTG not an individual for the manifest.
Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Skull
Mike,
You could be correct, but it's interesting to note that she does not list the International Ship Transcriber's Guild in her "Acknowledgements" on page 363. Is it possible that they were not her source for the document that is in her book?
In other words, is she simply conveying the information that her source gave her?
In our research, I don't believe anyone could come up with anything that matched. Perhaps we should look into it again but, IMHO, if Garry and Larry could not dig up the information, it probably isn't out there.
Take care,
Joe
You could be correct, but it's interesting to note that she does not list the International Ship Transcriber's Guild in her "Acknowledgements" on page 363. Is it possible that they were not her source for the document that is in her book?
In other words, is she simply conveying the information that her source gave her?
In our research, I don't believe anyone could come up with anything that matched. Perhaps we should look into it again but, IMHO, if Garry and Larry could not dig up the information, it probably isn't out there.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Skull
Mike,
I would suggest you put the following in your search engine and see what comes up:
International Ship Transcriber's Guild Olbers New Orleans 1839.
This has some important information in it:
Immigrant Ships
Transcribers Guild
New Orleans, Louisiana
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1826
Brig Howard 20 November
1831
Brig Isabela y Juan 8 April
Schooner Polvore Union 29 April
1836
Bark Theodor Korner 9 June
Barque C.P. Williams 18 July
Barque Salem 25 November
1837
Ship Josephine 28 February
1838
Barque Sophie 12 November
Ship Caledonia 18 December
1839
Ship Olbers 21 January
Brig Julia 30 November
1840
Barque Iris 24 December
1843
Ship Mary Phillips 15 October
1845
Bark Eliza Thornton 30 October
1847
Ship Constantine 31 May
1848
Ship Itzstein & Welcker 6 January
1850
Ship Ernestine 4 June
1851
Ship Rebecca 4 November
Ship Olbers 8 November
1852
Ship Uhland 16 June
Bark Edmund 23 June
Ship Louisiana 21 October
Barque Eberhard 8 November
1853
Ship Ernst Moritz Arndt 13 June
Ship H. Von Gagern 12 October
Ship Monmouth 23 December
1854
Bark Adonis 1 June
1857
Bremen 28 October
Ship D.H. Watjen 25 November
1859
Ship Magdalene 5 November
___________________________________
It would seem, according to the Guild, that the Olbers only made one landing in New Orleans in 1939. The list of passengers is available in this link:
ISTG Vol 4 - Ship Olbers
Transcribers Guild. Ship Olbers. Bremen, Germany to New Orleans 21 January 1839
... I, H. W. Exter master of the Ship Olbers do solemnly sincerely & truly swear
.... The 13th of Nov 1838 New Orleans the 21 of Jan 1839 Transcriber's Notes:
.... Within this web site are protected under international copyright law. ...
http://www.immigrantships.net/v4/1800v4 ... 90121.html - 25k - Similar pages
_____________________________________________
My own "unqualified" opinion is that the manifest in Helen's book was a forgery. I don't believe she had any idea that it was anything but authentic.
Good luck,
Joe
I would suggest you put the following in your search engine and see what comes up:
International Ship Transcriber's Guild Olbers New Orleans 1839.
This has some important information in it:
Immigrant Ships
Transcribers Guild
New Orleans, Louisiana
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1826
Brig Howard 20 November
1831
Brig Isabela y Juan 8 April
Schooner Polvore Union 29 April
1836
Bark Theodor Korner 9 June
Barque C.P. Williams 18 July
Barque Salem 25 November
1837
Ship Josephine 28 February
1838
Barque Sophie 12 November
Ship Caledonia 18 December
1839
Ship Olbers 21 January
Brig Julia 30 November
1840
Barque Iris 24 December
1843
Ship Mary Phillips 15 October
1845
Bark Eliza Thornton 30 October
1847
Ship Constantine 31 May
1848
Ship Itzstein & Welcker 6 January
1850
Ship Ernestine 4 June
1851
Ship Rebecca 4 November
Ship Olbers 8 November
1852
Ship Uhland 16 June
Bark Edmund 23 June
Ship Louisiana 21 October
Barque Eberhard 8 November
1853
Ship Ernst Moritz Arndt 13 June
Ship H. Von Gagern 12 October
Ship Monmouth 23 December
1854
Bark Adonis 1 June
1857
Bremen 28 October
Ship D.H. Watjen 25 November
1859
Ship Magdalene 5 November
___________________________________
It would seem, according to the Guild, that the Olbers only made one landing in New Orleans in 1939. The list of passengers is available in this link:
ISTG Vol 4 - Ship Olbers
Transcribers Guild. Ship Olbers. Bremen, Germany to New Orleans 21 January 1839
... I, H. W. Exter master of the Ship Olbers do solemnly sincerely & truly swear
.... The 13th of Nov 1838 New Orleans the 21 of Jan 1839 Transcriber's Notes:
.... Within this web site are protected under international copyright law. ...
http://www.immigrantships.net/v4/1800v4 ... 90121.html - 25k - Similar pages
_____________________________________________
My own "unqualified" opinion is that the manifest in Helen's book was a forgery. I don't believe she had any idea that it was anything but authentic.
Good luck,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
Joe,
I know. I have been running through the ISTG Site for a couple of hours. What is the importance of the list of ships you provided? Do they contain duplicate names to those on Corbin's Manifest?
I doubt a forgery would have been made up completely. I would assume that blocks of information would have been used from other manifests.
Mike
I know. I have been running through the ISTG Site for a couple of hours. What is the importance of the list of ships you provided? Do they contain duplicate names to those on Corbin's Manifest?
I doubt a forgery would have been made up completely. I would assume that blocks of information would have been used from other manifests.
Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Skull
I've been through about half the manifest and haven't found a double yet.
Hey Joe, maybe this conversation would be better added to the old thread instead of hijacking Dr Glover's thread which has very little to do with this.
Mike/
Hey Joe, maybe this conversation would be better added to the old thread instead of hijacking Dr Glover's thread which has very little to do with this.
Mike/
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Skull
Mike,
I posted the entire list to show that the Guild was pretty thorough. For me, the timing of the passage in Helen's manifest was a red flag.
We sure could move this conversation to the original thread. Don't know how much more leg its got.
Take care,
Joe
I posted the entire list to show that the Guild was pretty thorough. For me, the timing of the passage in Helen's manifest was a red flag.
We sure could move this conversation to the original thread. Don't know how much more leg its got.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Skull
Thomas,
I’m not sure how much research you want to invest in the skull story but I doubt anything definitive will be revealed. I suspect stories like this evolve with people adding and removing elements over time. I would be very surprised is the any skull survived.
I did NOT run across some of the elements that Kevin shared and I’m sure if we were privy to his research, it would clear up some items. I did not find the Big and Little Dr. Jones reference, the Dan Baker story, the reference to the Ramon Valencia story in 1938. If Kevin is no longer involved with the forum, I suspect Greg Davis may recognize these references and the information may lie in his collections.
I will add another gentlemen to the mix, in addition to Dick Holmes or Dan Frank, who it is said, also located the skull. In Dane Coolidge’s Arizona Cowboys, he repeats the skull story as told by Johnny Jones who claimed it was his brother-in- law, Gomez who found the skull. It is certainly easy to dismiss this account, given the context of Johnny telling the story but we might also dismiss the others as equally suspect. I have seen little corroboration for any of the stories but maybe someone will come up with something.
I will offer a new scenario that many will judge suspect but right now it makes as much sense to me as the other accounts.
From the Homes Manuscript, Brownie wrote that his father, Dick Holmes, searched the Superstitions for Jacob’s mine for a period of 5 years before possibly becoming discouraged and decided to check out the story of Jacob murdering his nephew and burying him at Hidden Water. Dick found the grave, dug up the nephew, took the skull and upon returning to town, left it with an old friend, “Doc” Jones.
Since Waltz died in October of 1891, this would place the discovery at about the end of 1896.
There has been some discussion about who, Dick's friend, “Doc” Jones was. I’m certain it was Dr. Charles H. Jones. Dr. W. W. Jones had died (Jan 7, 1896) almost a year before the suggested discovery date by Holmes.
There are also numerous references to both Dr. Charles H. Jones and W. W. Jones in the Arizona Republican. Dr. Charles H. Jones appears regularly from 1892 until his death in 1907 in a section, of the newspaper, devoted to Tempe. He had an office and later there is also a reference to a drug store he owned in Tempe. Many of the references to Doctor W. W. Jones involved his ranch and although he still dabbled in medicine it certainly didn’t seem to be his primary interest and I saw nothing to indicate he had a store front medical practice anywhere.
A story that caught my eye, appeared in the February 19, 1898, Arizona Republican. While it’s far from perfect, I believe it could be the seed for the skull story.
From a cursory look at some other editions, I believe a road crew, of which Cummings was the overseer, was working on a road approach to the Salt River, near Tempe Butte, when the skeletons and artifacts were discovered.
Dr. Scroggs was also a Tempe physician who worked with Dr. Charles H.Jones on occasion.
While we can’t say for sure that it was a skull from this site that ended up in Dr. Jones office, we can say there were a couple of loose skulls around Tempe in about the right time period and whose discovery, Dr Charles H. Jones, was closely associated with.
Garry
I’m not sure how much research you want to invest in the skull story but I doubt anything definitive will be revealed. I suspect stories like this evolve with people adding and removing elements over time. I would be very surprised is the any skull survived.
I did NOT run across some of the elements that Kevin shared and I’m sure if we were privy to his research, it would clear up some items. I did not find the Big and Little Dr. Jones reference, the Dan Baker story, the reference to the Ramon Valencia story in 1938. If Kevin is no longer involved with the forum, I suspect Greg Davis may recognize these references and the information may lie in his collections.
I will add another gentlemen to the mix, in addition to Dick Holmes or Dan Frank, who it is said, also located the skull. In Dane Coolidge’s Arizona Cowboys, he repeats the skull story as told by Johnny Jones who claimed it was his brother-in- law, Gomez who found the skull. It is certainly easy to dismiss this account, given the context of Johnny telling the story but we might also dismiss the others as equally suspect. I have seen little corroboration for any of the stories but maybe someone will come up with something.
I will offer a new scenario that many will judge suspect but right now it makes as much sense to me as the other accounts.
From the Homes Manuscript, Brownie wrote that his father, Dick Holmes, searched the Superstitions for Jacob’s mine for a period of 5 years before possibly becoming discouraged and decided to check out the story of Jacob murdering his nephew and burying him at Hidden Water. Dick found the grave, dug up the nephew, took the skull and upon returning to town, left it with an old friend, “Doc” Jones.
Since Waltz died in October of 1891, this would place the discovery at about the end of 1896.
There has been some discussion about who, Dick's friend, “Doc” Jones was. I’m certain it was Dr. Charles H. Jones. Dr. W. W. Jones had died (Jan 7, 1896) almost a year before the suggested discovery date by Holmes.
There are also numerous references to both Dr. Charles H. Jones and W. W. Jones in the Arizona Republican. Dr. Charles H. Jones appears regularly from 1892 until his death in 1907 in a section, of the newspaper, devoted to Tempe. He had an office and later there is also a reference to a drug store he owned in Tempe. Many of the references to Doctor W. W. Jones involved his ranch and although he still dabbled in medicine it certainly didn’t seem to be his primary interest and I saw nothing to indicate he had a store front medical practice anywhere.
A story that caught my eye, appeared in the February 19, 1898, Arizona Republican. While it’s far from perfect, I believe it could be the seed for the skull story.
Dr. Jones today secured a number of specimens from the old ruins on the side of the butte. He has in his possession the mortar and pestle which has been mentioned several complete metates an ornamental shell charm, and a polished backstone, which was an ornament of some kind. J. H. Cummings has possession of the two-edged ax which has been spoken of. Yesterday a skeleton was found lying at full length. At the head was a small slate about three by four inches, on which there were eleven short lines. At one hip there was a curiously shaped olla. It resembles a fish and has a handle on the side which resembles the bottom of a fish. Dr. Scroggs secured possession of the skeleton or that part which could be removed without crumbling. Stacey Penn, it is reported has unearthed another skeleton today.
From a cursory look at some other editions, I believe a road crew, of which Cummings was the overseer, was working on a road approach to the Salt River, near Tempe Butte, when the skeletons and artifacts were discovered.
Dr. Scroggs was also a Tempe physician who worked with Dr. Charles H.Jones on occasion.
While we can’t say for sure that it was a skull from this site that ended up in Dr. Jones office, we can say there were a couple of loose skulls around Tempe in about the right time period and whose discovery, Dr Charles H. Jones, was closely associated with.
Garry
Re: The Skull
T Glover
In my research I have not found any strong evidence to support the story of Jacob Waltz shooting his nephew, whenever I try to track it down it fades into the wind.
I do not think that the story is true.
Has anyone even verified that waltz had a nephew?
Best Regards
Alan
In my research I have not found any strong evidence to support the story of Jacob Waltz shooting his nephew, whenever I try to track it down it fades into the wind.
I do not think that the story is true.
Has anyone even verified that waltz had a nephew?
Best Regards
Alan
Re: The Skull
Was enjoying my first day off in quite some time and decided to peek in and get caught up on the forum. This story like much of the Holmes story varies depending on the time frame more than the source. From 1900 on there are various accounts from Dick Holmes, Brownie, Ida and others that mention either a Nephew, Indian with a peace medal, a Mexican and Waltz's partner as pertaining to the skeleton that was found. In each case it wrapped around a varying tale of how Waltz killed and buried this individual.
Since the Holmes family members gave varied accounts themselves and the only written record is Brownies manuscript. I believe there was a skull that was found but the story attributed to it is very questionable. I have serious doubts it has anything to do with Jacob Waltz.
Since the Holmes family members gave varied accounts themselves and the only written record is Brownies manuscript. I believe there was a skull that was found but the story attributed to it is very questionable. I have serious doubts it has anything to do with Jacob Waltz.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Re: The Skull
Hi,
I actually discovered this forum while researching my family history. I am the great great granddaughter of Dr. W.W. Jones. His daughter, Maggie (a wonderful lady) married a Texas cowboy, Dan Frank (coincidentally, his best friend and traveling buddy , Jesus Gomez, married Maggie's sister, Kate). The ' Poncho' you speak of was actually Dr. Jones' brother-in-law and my great great grandmother, Arcadia's brother, Francisco Montoya (my Tio Poncho often used the americanized last name Monroy). In his last years he and La Senora had a little plot of land that is now at the bottom of Saguaro lake. My dad often talked of many happy times spent at Tio Poncho's and what an amazing cook La Senora was.
In the family history I have come upon references to Jacob Waltz and a friendship between him and W.W. but have not seen any reference to a skull.
I do know that many a"greenhorn"came thru Dr. Jones' ranch offering to pay the cowboys to guide them into the Superstitions to find the mine. The money was willingly taken, the guide provided, and the cowboys would have a good chuckle, while g.g.grandmother would pray for them as many never came back out (this was several years after the death of Dr. Jones of course)
PS. Dr. Jones never had an actual medical practice that we could find, but he did run at least two tuberculosis sanitariums, which was his specialty. In fact he was quite instrumental in populating the future state of Arizona as prominent citizens back east would send their sick relatives to him and he would advise the family not to return to the damp, polluted air in the east, the Hayden family being one of those families. I also have accounts via notes written by his children of Dr. Jones performing brain surgery and mastectomies on his kitchen table.
I apologize for getting off the subject here.....my family history is quite a passion with me.
I actually discovered this forum while researching my family history. I am the great great granddaughter of Dr. W.W. Jones. His daughter, Maggie (a wonderful lady) married a Texas cowboy, Dan Frank (coincidentally, his best friend and traveling buddy , Jesus Gomez, married Maggie's sister, Kate). The ' Poncho' you speak of was actually Dr. Jones' brother-in-law and my great great grandmother, Arcadia's brother, Francisco Montoya (my Tio Poncho often used the americanized last name Monroy). In his last years he and La Senora had a little plot of land that is now at the bottom of Saguaro lake. My dad often talked of many happy times spent at Tio Poncho's and what an amazing cook La Senora was.
In the family history I have come upon references to Jacob Waltz and a friendship between him and W.W. but have not seen any reference to a skull.
I do know that many a"greenhorn"came thru Dr. Jones' ranch offering to pay the cowboys to guide them into the Superstitions to find the mine. The money was willingly taken, the guide provided, and the cowboys would have a good chuckle, while g.g.grandmother would pray for them as many never came back out (this was several years after the death of Dr. Jones of course)
PS. Dr. Jones never had an actual medical practice that we could find, but he did run at least two tuberculosis sanitariums, which was his specialty. In fact he was quite instrumental in populating the future state of Arizona as prominent citizens back east would send their sick relatives to him and he would advise the family not to return to the damp, polluted air in the east, the Hayden family being one of those families. I also have accounts via notes written by his children of Dr. Jones performing brain surgery and mastectomies on his kitchen table.
I apologize for getting off the subject here.....my family history is quite a passion with me.
Re: The Skull
Not off topic at all - and welcome to the forum. There are a number of researchers here who I'm certain will be interested in asking you a few more questions if you visit back again. It's interesting that you've found references to Jacob Waltz being friends with W. W. Jones - that's not really an angle anyone has mentioned and it might be interesting if you can provide any information as to their relationship?Varsia wrote:Hi,
I actually discovered this forum while researching my family history. I am the great great granddaughter of Dr. W.W. Jones. His daughter, Maggie (a wonderful lady) married a Texas cowboy, Dan Frank (coincidentally, his best friend and traveling buddy , Jesus Gomez, married Maggie's sister, Kate). The ' Poncho' you speak of was actually Dr. Jones' brother-in-law and my great great grandmother, Arcadia's brother, Francisco Montoya (my Tio Poncho often used the americanized last name Monroy). In his last years he and La Senora had a little plot of land that is now at the bottom of Saguaro lake. My dad often talked of many happy times spent at Tio Poncho's and what an amazing cook La Senora was.
In the family history I have come upon references to Jacob Waltz and a friendship between him and W.W. but have not seen any reference to a skull.
I do know that many a"greenhorn"came thru Dr. Jones' ranch offering to pay the cowboys to guide them into the Superstitions to find the mine. The money was willingly taken, the guide provided, and the cowboys would have a good chuckle, while g.g.grandmother would pray for them as many never came back out (this was several years after the death of Dr. Jones of course)
PS. Dr. Jones never had an actual medical practice that we could find, but he did run at least two tuberculosis sanitariums, which was his specialty. In fact he was quite instrumental in populating the future state of Arizona as prominent citizens back east would send their sick relatives to him and he would advise the family not to return to the damp, polluted air in the east, the Hayden family being one of those families. I also have accounts via notes written by his children of Dr. Jones performing brain surgery and mastectomies on his kitchen table.
I apologize for getting off the subject here.....my family history is quite a passion with me.
Re: The Skull
Hi, welcome to the forum. Can you expound on this more? What references? What info do you have about this relationship, as well as any info about Jacob Waltz in general? Feel free to send me a private message if you do not feel comfortable posting this publicly. Also, if you live in the area or are not busy next weekend, we are having an annual Rendezvous. There is a thread here with the dates/location.Varsia wrote: In the family history I have come upon references to Jacob Waltz and a friendship between him and W.W. but have not seen any reference to a skull.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Re: The Skull
I have no problems answering whatever questions I can for anyone who cares to ask . I noticed a post from earlier of someone who knows another great great granddaughter of Dr. Jones, Lillie Parra Moraga. Dr. Jones had 6 daughters and 1 son. Those 6 daughters all married and several had LARGE families....so, by the time it gets to Dr. Jones' great greats....there are a LOT! Lol many I've never even met and it seems we all have pieces of a large puzzle!
As far as my information on Dr. Jones being friends with Jacob Waltz....comes from references in a handwritten notebook, of which I have a copy, from Dr. Jones' youngest daughter, Laura. my understanding was that she intended to write a book on Dr. jones and compiled all this information for that purpose. From what I have put together about Dr. Jones' personality, ' friends' would be a relative term, as I believe him to have been shrewd and calculating with a very definitive view of right and wrong....and a very quick temper... Additionally, Laura was only 5 yrs old at the time of his death and her memories and writings, I believe, are colored by a young girl, the baby of the family no less losing her daddy, whom she worshiped.
Anyway....i will answer any questions I can. I have this thread set to notify me by email....or anyone can email me at: [email protected] .....more later...bed now! Lol
. I noticed a post from earlier of someone who knows another great great granddaughter of Dr. Jones, Lillie Parra Moraga. Dr. Jones had 6 daughters and 1 son. Those 6 daughters all married and several had LARGE families....so, by the time it gets to Dr. Jones' great greats....there are a LOT! Lol many I've never even met and it seems we all have pieces of a large puzzle!As far as my information on Dr. Jones being friends with Jacob Waltz....comes from references in a handwritten notebook, of which I have a copy, from Dr. Jones' youngest daughter, Laura. my understanding was that she intended to write a book on Dr. jones and compiled all this information for that purpose. From what I have put together about Dr. Jones' personality, ' friends' would be a relative term, as I believe him to have been shrewd and calculating with a very definitive view of right and wrong....and a very quick temper... Additionally, Laura was only 5 yrs old at the time of his death and her memories and writings, I believe, are colored by a young girl, the baby of the family no less losing her daddy, whom she worshiped.
Anyway....i will answer any questions I can. I have this thread set to notify me by email....or anyone can email me at: [email protected] .....more later...bed now! Lol