USGS Circular# 609 "Mercury in Soil Gas and Air ~~~~~"

[Mike McChesney]

Here is the circular:

Mike

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Mike for posting this; one of the USGS geologists noted that it was particularly interesting that the LOWEST detected amount from over the Superstitions was higher than the HIGHEST detected amount from the Dome Rock mountains, an area well known for it mines and precious metal deposits.

Oroblanco

[Cubfan64]

The conclusion I make based on this circular is that Hg can be detected in the air above a known Hg deposit in the Superstition Mountains - no more no less, and shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

The connection between Hg content in the air above the Superstitions and precious metals deposits there is a stretch at best imho.

[Oroblanco]

The conclusion I make based on this circular is that Hg can be detected in the air above a known Hg deposit in the Superstition Mountains - no more no less, and shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

The connection between Hg content in the air above the Superstitions and precious metals deposits there is a stretch at best imho.

May I ask why you hold that opinion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul and Roy,

Does the fact that cinnabar and mercury are both found in the Superstitions become a factor in this discussion?

Is it possible that heat would create more mercury vapors which would be carried aloft by the natural updraft of the range?

Probably dumb questions, but I'm flying blind here.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Paul and Roy,

Does the fact that cinnabar and mercury are both found in the Superstitions become a factor in this discussion?

Is it possible that heat would create more mercury vapors which would be carried aloft by the natural updraft of the range?

Probably dumb questions, but I'm flying blind here.

Take care,

Joe

Not to speak for Paul here, but I would say yes to both proposals. It is logical to me anyway.
Roy

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

I agree with Oro here. Yes on both accounts. As a matter of fact, it is the basic premise of the entire circular.

Paul,

Are you kidding? Maybe you missed this line:

"Higher concentrations of mercury are found in air over base- and precious- metal ore deposits than in air over unmineralized bedrock"?

Dome Rock (Quartzsite) temps run very close to AJ Temps. That means that AJ is not really any hotter than Dome Rock. Both are cinnabar deposits. The lowest measurement of Supers Hg is higher than the highest Dome Rock Hg measurement.

The Supers Hg Measurement is higher than that over the amalgamation pits at Silver Bell. A place where known large amounts of Hg were used to amalgamate precious metals, that is exposed to the atmosphere, and therefore should have measured MUCH higher than a naturally occurring cinnabar deposit trapped underground.

Best-Mike

[Cubfan64]

The conclusion I make based on this circular is that Hg can be detected in the air above a known Hg deposit in the Superstition Mountains - no more no less, and shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

The connection between Hg content in the air above the Superstitions and precious metals deposits there is a stretch at best imho.

May I ask why you hold that opinion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Roy - I guess I'm biased because I've worked for so many years in a chemical laboratory environment and I've seen an astounding number of "abuses" of research data - especially in the interpretation. I routinely see millions of dollars spent on projects based on only a few data points that could just as easily be anomalies and outliers, but because it indicated to those interpreting the results what they wanted it to indicate, it was "full speed ahead." People lose jobs and companies go bankrupt because of things like that.

There are such a large number of variables surrounding what is stated in this study, that to draw the conclusion that it's likely the Superstitions hold large precious metals deposits is a stretch (again in my opinion).

I'm certainly open to the possibility that high Hg levels measured in the air could correlate with precious metal presence - I'm only saying this study doesn't provide nearly enough data to convince me.

How large was the Hg deposit in the Superstitions compared with the other sites? What were the weather conditions at each location at the time of measurement (wind, temperature, atm. pressure, etc...)? At what altitude were each of the measurements taken? How many measurements were taken?

Those are just a few of the questions that the circular doesn't answer in regards to the Hg measurements above the Superstitions.

While it's interesting, and may very well prove to be a good tool for looking for precious metal deposits, this circular on it's own does very little to convince me. I've found a number of other research papers I'm slowly digesting to try to form a better opinion.

[Cubfan64]

Joe,

I agree with Oro here. Yes on both accounts. As a matter of fact, it is the basic premise of the entire circular.

Paul,

Are you kidding? Maybe you missed this line:

"Higher concentrations of mercury are found in air over base- and precious- metal ore deposits than in air over unmineralized bedrock"?

Dome Rock (Quartzsite) temps run very close to AJ Temps. That means that AJ is not really any hotter than Dome Rock. Both are cinnabar deposits. The lowest measurement of Supers Hg is higher than the highest Dome Rock Hg measurement.

The Supers Hg Measurement is higher than that over the amalgamation pits at Silver Bell. A place where known large amounts of Hg were used to amalgamate precious metals, that is exposed to the atmosphere, and therefore should have measured MUCH higher than a naturally occurring cinnabar deposit trapped underground.

Best-Mike

Nope Mike - I'm not kidding at all, and yes I saw that statement. I don't see anything in that statement about higher Hg levels above KNOWN Hg deposits though - which is what the report states about their measurements over the Superstitions.

As I mentioned to Roy, it could very well be that measuring Hg levels in air could be an additional valuable tool in locating precious metal deposits - I'm not denying that - I'm just saying the THIS particular circular does little to convince me of anything other than that Hg can be detected in the air above known Hg deposits in the Supertitions.

As far as the Silver Bell amalgamation use of Hg, you stated yourself that the Hg is right there exposed to the atmosphere - I think it's quite possible that at high temperatures and exposed 365 days a year to the atmosphere, at least a good amount of that Hg has long since been vaporized and "moved" to other locations by weather conditions.

I don't have a clue how extensive the Dome Rock Hg deposit is or at what depth or geological surroundings it happens to be in - and I don't know the same about the Superstitions deposit. Because of that, there's no way I can state with any degree of certainty that the vapor above either one should read higher on a given day.

Please don't read more into what I'm saying... I believe there's a decent chance that Hg vapor measurements can be a good additional tool in locating and mapping fault lines (at least ones where Hg has been deposited), and those fault lines are also good places to look for precious metal deposits. All I'm saying is that the results of USGS circular 609 alone does little to convince me that there are large precious metal deposits in the Superstitions.

Incidently, I assume nobody has been able to discover exactly WHAT mercury deposit was flown over in the Superstitions for this study?

[Mike McChesney]

Paul,

One thing that I don't always keep in mind is that some people don't have a lot of knowledge of a particular subject. USGS609 was not meant to be THE text for people with no history in the subject. It's target audience were people already in the field of geochemical mineral exploration.

I knew some about the subject due to some closeness with the Oil Exploration Business. Same methods are used there, just looking for different vapors (hydrocarbons instead of mercury vapors). Actually, the two are very closely related because (and not many will admit to this) many oil exploration companies have at least one dowser on staff (believe it or not). When I was growing up, I went to school with the son of a guy that owned CT Carden Oil Exploration Svcs (I am from New Orleans). I was very surprised when I found that out.

All I can recommend is that you read as much as you can on the subject and maybe shoot a few emails to mineral exploration companies. Mercury Vapors in soil and air have been commonly used in the US since the 1940s in mineral explorations. Reread "De Re Metallica" by Georgius Agricola. The part about "gold exhalations". What do you think those "exhalations" are? Mercury and Arsenic Vapors that are known to exist in very large quantities in precious metal deposits. As those "exhalations come in contact with plant roots it causes changes in the plant's health and therefore also its' physical structure. Those exhalations could also be the source of those different colored light flashes from ore bodies. Makes trees black, causes conifers to bear cones only very near the trunk, etc, etc, etc. So actually, those vapors have been used in prospecting since the earliest days.

Best Mike

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

One thing that I don't always keep in mind is that some people don't have a lot of knowledge of a particular subject. USGS609 was not meant to be THE text for people with no history in the subject. It's target audience were people already in the field of geochemical mineral exploration.

I knew some about the subject due to some closeness with the Oil Exploration Business. Same methods are used there, just looking for different vapors (hydrocarbons instead of mercury vapors). Actually, the two are very closely related because (and not many will admit to this) many oil exploration companies have at least one dowser on staff (believe it or not). When I was growing up, I went to school with the son of a guy that owned CT Carden Oil Exploration Svcs (I am from New Orleans). I was very surprised when I found that out.

All I can recommend is that you read as much as you can on the subject and maybe shoot a few emails to mineral exploration companies. Mercury Vapors in soil and air have been commonly used in the US since the 1940s in mineral explorations. Reread "De Re Metallica" by Georgius Agricola. The part about "gold exhalations". What do you think those "exhalations" are? Mercury and Arsenic Vapors that are known to exist in very large quantities in precious metal deposits. As those "exhalations come in contact with plant roots it causes changes in the plant's health and therefore also its' physical structure. Those exhalations could also be the source of those different colored light flashes from ore bodies. Makes trees black, causes conifers to bear cones only very near the trunk, etc, etc, etc. So actually, those vapors have been used in prospecting since the earliest days.

Best Mike

Mike - my comments you and Roy were questioning were specifically addressed to this ONE USGS circular and the conclusions being drawn from it - I tried to make that clear when I made them. I also stated that I'm looking for and reading as much as I can in regards to the association of Hg with precious metals deposits, so I think we're on the same page for the most part.

We all have different experiences within different fields, and I hope that can be used to work together to get a clearer understanding of the realities of what's going on.

The Hg readings in the air above a specific section of the Superstitions could be an indication of precious metal deposits below the surface - I don't argue that - I just know some people (noy saying you or Roy or anyone specifically) will see this report and instantly assume that it's absolute proof of large gold deposits and that's simply not true. Are all Hg deposits associated with gold? Could the Hg deposit simply be a large Hg deposit on it's own? Could it be in an area of hot springs or an area where more than a typical amount of Hg could be vaporized? I don't know the answers to those questions, but am reading, questioning and trying to find out.

It's really an interesting subject!

[Mike McChesney]

Paul,

This attachment may help answer some of your questions. The known Cinnabar Deposit is in the Goldfield Area (NE). So, I guess this is where the plane flew over (Southern part of the Supers East to West likely).

According to MINDAT.org the only Hg Mines in the Supers (modern) are those associated with the Nations Mine Group.

To answer another of your questions, Hg is almost always associated with gold and/or silver. It is also associated with other minerals, but the way it works is: A mining company does an Air Sampling Flyover. If the sample of Hg Vapors are much higher than background, they send in truck to sample soil Hg Vapor Levels (or on foot in rough country). That is done so as to localize the locations of the highest concentrations of Hg Vapors (akin to using Pinpoint on a metal detector). From those tests, they can look at the known geography and stratigraphic information of the area to determine the best place to look. They then send in drillers to take core samples from different depths trying to find the vein of whatever is causing the high Hg Vapor Levels. From those samples, they know exactly what they are looking at.

Best-Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

"This attachment may help answer some of your questions. The known Cinnabar Deposit is in the Goldfield Area (NE). So, I guess this is where the plane flew over (Southern part of the Supers East to West likely)."

I was unaware that a test was flown over the southern part of the Supe's. Do you know when that took place?

Thanks,

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

I would guess it happened in 1968 or 1969. It is on page 3 of this circular.

"Mercury in air was measured in Arizona over two mercury deposits and two porphyry copper deposits, and several long traverses were flown along the highway from Quartzsite Arizona, to the Colorado River at Blythe, California. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ONE MERCURY DEPOSIT WAS IN THE SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS EAST OF PHOENIX ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"

Since it says that "Mercury in air" was measured over two mercury deposits, then goes on to name the two (Superstition and Dome Rock Mountains)., you then have to look at where the known Mercury Deposits are in the Supers. That is why I included the attachment from MINDAT.org showing where the Mercury mines were. Only thing showed is one group that was in the Southern Part of the Supers. Stands to reason that is where they flew.

Best-Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

This seems to be the same test that Dr. Glover used for source material in his book. That being the case, the two flights that were made in relation to the Superstition area were plainly stated as being:

"One flight path was along the Apache Trail, skirting the western/northwestern edge of the mountains, where the mercury deposits are known to be located. The other flight path, however, was over the heart of the interior of the mountains right down La Barge Canyon. They encountered significantly elevated levels of mercury on both flight paths."

From what I read, no flight was made over the southern part of the range, other than flying along the Apache Trail as mentioned above.

I could, of course, be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

You are most certainly correct. Mine were just best guesses based on what information I could find. After rereading that section of Glover's Book, I see that he interviewed the Geologist that did the study and wrote the circular for the USGS.

Since he got the information from the horse's mouth, I guess the correct answer to Paul's Question would be as you stated previously.

Funny though, if the "KNOWN" mercury deposits were in the areas they described by Glover, then why aren't there any Mercury Mines in that area (unless MINDAT.org is not complete). The only mercury mines in the Supers are shown to be NE of Gold Canyon (see map above).

Best-Mike

[Oroblanco]

Mike, assuming you were not kidding about how complete Mindat.org data is, YES it is quite incomplete and imperfect, with the wrong coordinates for a number of mines. I found how far off some are while researching the over 900 here in our area and at least a third had the wrong location, (in a few cases the distance is considerable, over a dozen miles) and over 30 mines that are known and well documented (not lost in any way) that are not even referred to in their data set.

Not to knock Mindat too much, I use it too and it is pretty good overall but you cannot take the info to the bank.
Roy

[Cubfan64]

I'm still very curious as to where the "known" mercury deposits are located. If they're "known," they must be known by either locals or geologists or likely both. I suspect the reason we don't hear any specific information about them may be because of the USGS circular convincing folks that those locations are at the very least, likely places to look for precious metal deposits and at best, where the LDM can be found.

I'm still collecting and reading as much as I can find about Hg deposits and their association with precious metals deposits. As usual, it seems the more one reads, the more questions arise and the more one finds inconsistencies, disagreements and contradictions even amongst the professionals

[Mike McChesney]

I'm still very curious as to where the "known" mercury deposits are located. If they're "known," they must be known by either locals or geologists or likely both. I suspect the reason we don't hear any specific information about them may be because of the USGS circular convincing folks that those locations are at the very least, likely places to look for precious metal deposits and at best, where the LDM can be found.

I'm still collecting and reading as much as I can find about Hg deposits and their association with precious metals deposits. As usual, it seems the more one reads, the more questions arise and the more one finds inconsistencies, disagreements and contradictions even amongst the professionals

Paul,

I don't like to assume that somebody has something, so I will include the relevant sections of Thomas Glover's Book. Seems that from his conversations with Dr. McCarthy that the only people who believed that the Supers had no mineralization were saying so because Uncle Sam was trying to include the Supes as a Wilderness Area. A-G-E-N-D-A

Same thing happened here in California. When the state wanted to take over the entire Death Valley Area and turn in into a National Preserve, they had to push out the small miners. They did so by forcing them to submit to testing of the ore from their mines to see if it was worth anything. There are many reported cases to the testers taking samples not from anywhere near the veins being dug. Many cases of the state getting sued over doing that. Right now in Arizona, the BLM and State are trying to cover up all the history of mining in the Santa Cruz River Valley South of Tucson. THAT'S RIGHT! There was very little mining in the PLANCHAS DE PLATA according to the BLM, and what mining there was only lasted five or six years. Raul Grijalva is trying to turn that area into a National Preserve. A-G-E-N-D-A

Best-Mike

[Mike McChesney]

The previous post's attachments displayed out of order. Start at the bottom attachment last post and read to top and read this attachment last.

Mike

[Mrs. Oroblanco]

I'm not going to even pretend that I know much about this "mercury in the air" stuff,
though, what I've read so far is interesting.

What I'm not understanding - first - and this is directed for anyone - how can mercury
in the air be larger over a deposit of cinnebar (mercury chemically bound in ore), than
it would be over a mine that is using mercury in its pure form - especially the older mines that didn't recyle it in closed systems? It doesn't seem to be possible, never
mind likely.

Mike,

You noted that the powers that be, when wanting to make the Supers a wilderness, did
have ulterior motives for having it being unmineralized - which I totally agree with - the government has done this several times - like in California, with their wilderness act.
However - one of the reasons that Babbit closed (integrated - ha), the Bureau of Mines,
is because they refused to lie on mineralizations - they would not tow the line, and reports by them can pretty well be counted on. The same can be said of the Arizona department of Minerals and Mines.

http://www.admmr.state.az.us/Publicatio ... nixMts.pdf

http://www.admmr.state.az.us/DigitalLib ... 136-82.pdf

The Sunflower Mine was a well-known mercury (cinnebar) mine that ran until 1965, among others.

http://www.pbase.com/geokolb/sunflower_mine

My other question is - was this mine covered (flown over) and if so, did it have a higher, lower, the same - amount of mercury in the air? Of course, this mine also mined gold, silver and copper in addition to the cinnebar.

Thanks,

Beth

[Cubfan64]

Beth,

I'll take a stab at a couple things you mentioned...

1) I agree with you that Hg vapors should not be higher over a cinnabar (mercury sulfide) deposit than over any site with elemental mercury or even amalgamated mercury. I may have fallen into the trap in earlier posts of using the terms mercury and cinnabar interchangably - I'll make sure I don't do that again.

As you stated, cinnabar is usually the name given to the most common mercury containing ore - mercury sulfide. As far as I'm aware, cinnabar is a relatively stable mineral and alone does not release appreciable (any?) mercury in vapor form. Elemental mercury on the other hand has a high vapor pressure and can be carried into the air even at room temperature - not to mention that 100F+ weather in Arizona.

The difficulty for me when it comes to reports like the USGS one is that it's not at all clear exactly what was flown over? For example, a cinnabar mine that also had a processing (even small) area where the ore could be roasted could easily be a source of Hg in the surrounding air, wheras a dormant cinnabar mine where they just pulled the ore out to transfer it to another location wouldn't be that sort of source. As far as Hg being present in gold or silver mining areas - elemental mercury could very well have been used years ago to try to increase the yield by amalgamation - especially if grinding or other sort of pulverizing of the ore was taking place. The gold or silver would have to have been in elemental form for the amalgamation to take place (I'm pretty sure?), but if it was used at all, that's a good potential source.

I read in a couple papers brief comments about elemental mercury being present in cinnabar mines at locations where strong oxidation occured at one point or another. I suppose that's always a possibility too, although they stated that it's fairly rare for that to occur.

One thing I'm really interested in however has to do with cinnabar deposits near hot springs. Just thinking out loud, what would be the possibility of cinnabar being oxidixed or at the very least heated much deeper in the earth in those areas and then Hg vapor escaping through cracks and faults to the surface over time? Could this be the reason for some of the high Hg levels noticed above the Superstitions?

Anyways - I have tons more to read, and nothing much more to add at this point. It's a very interesting subject however and I'm certainly looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts.

2) I completely agree with you that I wouldn't put it past any government agency to lie to the public for whatever cause they believe is worthy to them. That's part of the problem I'm getting into when trying to sort through these journal articles, USGS, etc... papers. There are enough contradictory statements and enough confusing facts that I don't know who's telling the truth, who's manipulating data and/or statistics to get the results they want, etc...

3) At the end of your post you mentioned

My other question is - was this mine covered (flown over) and if so, did it have a higher, lower, the same - amount of mercury in the air? Of course, this mine also mined gold, silver and copper in addition to the cinnebar.

Are you referring to the Sunflower Mine you posted just above that, or are you talking about some other location?

It still comes down (for me at least) to EXACTLY where the high Hg readings were recorded in the Superstitions and what supposed mercury containing locations they were trying to fly over.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

I suppose, if you had a site that you were really in love with, you could rent a small, hand held, real time mercury vapor analyzer. Cost is around $500 for a week, or just under $200 for a day. Don't know if they work for what LDM hunters would be looking for, but they are available in Arizona. Cost to purchase is around $10,000.

Seems like an interesting thing to look into.

Your theory that the vapors could be coming from deep in the earth, makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, I know nothing about the vapors.......

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

I suppose, if you had a site that you were really in love with, you could rent a small, hand held, real time mercury vapor analyzer. Cost is around $500 for a week, or just under $200 for a day. Don't know if they work for what LDM hunters would be looking for, but they are available in Arizona. Cost to purchase is around $10,000.

Seems like an interesting thing to look into.

Your theory that the vapors could be coming from deep in the earth, makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, I know nothing about the vapors.......

Take care,

Joe

Joe - I haven't been convinced yet that mercury vapors alone are that promising of a an indiation of gold/silver deposits, HOWEVER, if I were seriously getting into looking for prospecting locations, I would very likely try to set aside $10,000 little by little to purchase one of those hand held units - assuming they are reliable and easy to calibrate. If nothing else, it's another tool and would be quite useful for finding areas where elemental mercury had been used which would be an indicator that gold ore processing (and thus mining) had been done nearby.

My theory about mercury vapors coming from deeper in the earth seems to make sense to me too - especially in a place like the Superstitions where it stays quite hot most of the year. Even if Hg laden vapor were to cool as it came from deeper down, because it has such a high vapor pressure at room temperatures, it wouldn't condense and re-deposit out to anywhere near the extent that most other elements will.

I have no proof of anything, but I would LOVE to see whether mercury vapor patters in the Superstitions line up with known fault lines!

[Mrs. Oroblanco]

Paul,

I understood what you meant with the cinnebar/mercury thing. No reason to change how you said it. And, mercury isn't always "locked" into cinnebar, it sometimes shows up in native form.

As for your question - yes, I was looking for any references to that mine, in particular, to see if there was someone who had done any of the mercury/air tests in that area, since it is a known deposit, for all the elements.

That idea of the extra warmth from hot springs and old volcanic activity sounds like a real possibility, along with the constant warmth it gets in the Supes during a portion of
the year. Which would also beg the question of - does the time of year tested change
the readings.

I didn't see a specific reference to what altitude they were flying in each area, either,
and I am wondering if that makes a difference - I would think that it would (and, again,
I'm not pretending to be anything but new at looking at this interesting subject). But,
I have to think, at this point, that altitude would matter also, along with things like
prevailing winds - which would, I think, make dispersement uneven at best. But, then
again, maybe not.

Since that mine is a known mine, with all the elements of cinnebar, gold, silver and copper, and - the use of mercury at one time - I thought that would be an interesting
place to have tested the theories on.

I definitely need more "reading" - though, so far, since, I don't know any of the answers.

Beth