I Wonder

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RONN
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I Wonder

Post by RONN »

Hello all you good Dutch Hunters ~
I have followed for years the multiple postings in this web site about the LDM and gold mining in general. As I am elderly and disabled I cannot travel to the mysterious Superstitions territory. But I read with the greatest of interest the various results of investigations as to names, places, dates, and everything else associated with the mining of precious metals. One of my favorite authors on western lore is Louis L’Amour. Fiction perhaps with a bit of truth thrown in for good measure. No, I am not an expert in any of the writings the people post. Wish I was. BUT I do have a question. Was or is there really a LDM? So much fascinating proof. But as yet nothing one can lay their hands on. The fact that the USA decided to make the Supers a wilderness area doesn’t help much. But in my constant following of this and other web sites as well as a multitude of books I still will wonder to the end of my days – does the LDM exist? I have no doubt about Jacob Waltzer, but why could he not be put in the class of just another miner that struck it rich? Is the LDM filled with gold ingots, processed gold? I wonder. Maybe someone, some of the thousands of men and women over the hundreds of years still couldn’t find the LDM. I just don’t understand it. Too many people have spent too much time searching for the LDM. As a last comment I can only say that maybe the earthquake experienced in the Superstitions many years ago actually buried the LDM thousands of feet below the surface. I continue to wonder. And if anyone would like to add some answers to my post I would be most grateful. I can only dream. I cannot move this old body around enough to see for myself of what you all speak. I do not disbelieve any of you. I just cannot understand how the LDM has gone missing for so many hundreds of years. Thank you for hearing me out. As an after thought maybe someone is living today that quietly discovered the LDM and is now living in the anonymous lap of luxury.
Ronn
alan m
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Re: I Wonder

Post by alan m »

Hello Ronn
You pose a good question and I am sure that you will get different opinions as to the existance of the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Here are some FACTS to ponder and so you know I do believe that the LDM exist, at least in principle, to clarify, Waltz is reported to have said that "no miner will ever find my mine"
this implies that it is not a mine at all but rather a cache of previously mined gold, with that said here are the FACTS as are accepted by most researchers.
To the west of the Superstitions is the famous area of Goldfield, it is here that the largest amount of gold was taken out of the ground from the numerous mines in that area, Mamouth, Bluebird etc. There are documents that waltz worked in this area in the 1840's
The gold which came from waltz via the cigar box from under his deathbed was made into a cigarette case or something like it, has been analyzed and in fact did not come from the Vulture mine nor any other known source in Arizona.
Waltz did exist and he did have a large amount of gold
He frequently went into the Superstiton Mountains and returned usually within 3 days. This means that the gold he got had to come from somewhere in or around the Superstitions
Finally, it is accepted as fact the numerous stories that the Apache covered or filled in all of the mines that could be located in these mountains but they may have missed one
I have spent many years researching a hidden Jesuit treasure within the Superstitons and I am convinced that the gold hidden by the Jesuits and Jacob Waltz's gold came from the same place.
Yes Ronn the LDM does exist
Best Regards
Alan
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Oroblanco
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Re: I Wonder

Post by Oroblanco »

Greetings Ronn,

As far as Waltz having a mine, all we can prove is that he had very rich gold ore in his possession, which was compared to all the known ores of Arizona and it does not match any known source. Some have postulated that he never had a mine at all, that it was stolen etc but we also know that he tried to tell his friends how to find the mine, and pointed to the Superstitions telling them it was there. It is not logical that he would tell his friends to go on a wild goose chase.

As for how a thing like a mine could remain lost for so long - other mines have remained lost for much longer periods, such as King Solomon's for instance; a mine is easily lost in the landscape and especially so in the very rough and brushy terrain as we see in the Superstitions; if you could visit these mysterious mountains you would quickly see how it is possible. I have been meaning to post a little 'photo-essay' for some of our skeptics who do not believe you can hide a mine, to show just how difficult it is to see a mine, even one that nothing was ever done to hide it, just because of the terrain and growth of brush etc as it is enlightening. I don't have the time this evening or I would try it. Then remember that Waltz made special efforts to hide his gold mine, so good that he is quoted as having told his friend the young boy Reinhard ("Reiney") Petrasch when the boy was apparently not paying attention to the directions,

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

Good luck and good hunting Ronn and everyone, thank you for posting and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
RONN
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Re: I Wonder

Post by RONN »

Hello Allan and Oroblanco –
Thank you so much for your posts. Now I was wondering if you knew anything about an individual (name unknown) that by way of much trouble he received permission from the National Wilderness Bureau to excavate in the wilderness area. It seems he wrote a book about his experiences and also some people (unknown) have said he secreted a lot of gold unknown to the authorities. He and his son I understand run or used to run a guide service for tourists in the Supers. I have been searching the internet and I just can’t seem to find any info on what happened to him. Or the name of his book and where one can purchase it. Do you know of whom I speak or any info would be appreciated? This all took place within I believe the last 5 years or so.
Many thanks for your trouble.
Ron
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Mike McChesney
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Re: I Wonder

Post by Mike McChesney »

Ronn,

The gentlemen you are referring to are Ron Feldman and his son Jesse.

Here is the website about that effort:

http://dutchhunter.com/

Best-Mike
RONN
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Re: I Wonder

Post by RONN »

TO ALL GOOD DUTCH HUNTERS – and especially Oroblanco, Alan M, Joe Ribaudo, to which I give my personal thanks for your most valuable opinions.
Being disabled does lend itself to a lot of boring time and a lot of time to concentrate on one or more subjects. I would like to expand if I may on one of my recent posts regarding the LDM. Let me go into somewhat of a dissertation and see if it flies. I am, like many others, very interested in the Supers. Wilderness area or not. Let us suppose for a moment that the LDM has been found and the discoverer has very quietly cleaned it out. This could have taken place before it became a wilderness area, or after – makes no difference. I have worked with the government for 34 years and I have a pretty good idea of what one can do and what you cannot do. Enough said.
Now the thing that bothers me is the fact that when I speak of the Supers to some of my friends they do not have any idea of what I speak, Ok no problem. But if the day comes when the existence, of the LDM is definitely established what will happen? Will people stop writing books; will the books already written disappear into the dust of history? Many people have made a fortune just writing about the LDM. Do school teachers speak of the LDM to their students? Lots of if's and’s and but's. But for me personally, LDM or not I am totally transfixed at some of the postings I read. Perhaps not all related to the LDM, rather the history of Arizona, New Mexico, and Mexico. Posts on the Indians and Spanish, Mexicans and who knows who else. All very interesting to me because I can actually picture myself on the scene at times.
In the next month or so I am going to make it a point to talk with some teachers both in the grades and high school and find out what they know or don’t know of the history of the southwest and the LDM. Further, I have made a list of books that I plan on purchasing very soon. Namely: ‘The Quest’, ‘Crooked Mountain’ ‘Zig Zag Canyon’, ‘Deep Fault’, and ‘Jacobs Trail’. Keep in mind I am the greenest of greenhorns you will ever read about. If anyone has any suggestions as to another book or two, please let me know.
So, does the LDM really exist? Yes, empty or filled with gold it is out there somewhere, an important part of the history of the southwest. Keep in mind that I read all of your posts almost on a daily basis, and thanks to your good responses I now believe the LDM is alive and well. We all know that one learns from history, and this is certainly a lesson on the Southwest. The fact that it has been declared a Wilderness area has no basis in my book. Senator John McCain was to give a speech at the end of a movie made on the superstitions. Don't know if it ever happened. But he read a draft of the speech as written by a representative of the ‘wilderness area’ while flying from LA to Phoenix with a wilderness representative. After reading it he crumpled it up and threw it in the garbage much to the ‘disappointment’ of the wilderness representative. It is obvious to me that the so called ‘Rangers’ know little or nothing of the real story behind the superstitions. A little understanding goes a long way, a long way indeed.
Thank you for your time and my Best Regards to all. Wish me luck! Maybe I will learn something.
Ronn
One last thing I should like to add. Four years ago I visited my homeland of Germany to visit descendants of my family. I plan on hopefully making another trip and this time I will be sure and research the birth of Jacob Waltz and anything else I can find out about him.
alan m
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Re: I Wonder

Post by alan m »

Hello Ron
Thank-you for those kind words
I am thrilled that you have found renewed faith in the existance of the Lost Dutchman Mine.
I was introduced to the Superstition's when I was 13 having just moved to Arizona from Michigan. I knew nothing of thier mystery but experienced first hand thier dominating presence. My family and I were taking lunch at a picnic table near Peralta trial head, remember this was in 1968. and everything seemed normal, you could hear the buzzing of insects in the bushes and an occasional scurry of a lizard. Suddenly it became intensly quiet
All that could be heard was the ringing in our ears, it remained so for quite some time to the point where it unnerved my father. We terminated our lunch early and promptly left.
Many years later I read Curt Gentry's "The Killer Mountains" and became hooked on everything "Dutchman". I highly recomend this book, if only for the joy of reading it.
I found out about the stone tablets in 1977 while on leave from the U.S.Navy. I have been continually researching the LDM and the tablets ever since.
Please realize that this in no way makes me an expert, I have learned alot from the people who generously give of thier information on these blogs.
It is a real pleasure to communicate and share with them and you.
Welcome to an obsession
Very Best Regards
Alan
Cubfan64
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Re: I Wonder

Post by Cubfan64 »

alan m wrote:Hello Ron
Thank-you for those kind words
I am thrilled that you have found renewed faith in the existance of the Lost Dutchman Mine.
I was introduced to the Superstition's when I was 13 having just moved to Arizona from Michigan. I knew nothing of thier mystery but experienced first hand thier dominating presence. My family and I were taking lunch at a picnic table near Peralta trial head, remember this was in 1968. and everything seemed normal, you could hear the buzzing of insects in the bushes and an occasional scurry of a lizard. Suddenly it became intensly quiet
All that could be heard was the ringing in our ears, it remained so for quite some time to the point where it unnerved my father. We terminated our lunch early and promptly left.
Many years later I read Curt Gentry's "The Killer Mountains" and became hooked on everything "Dutchman". I highly recomend this book, if only for the joy of reading it.
I found out about the stone tablets in 1977 while on leave from the U.S.Navy. I have been continually researching the LDM and the tablets ever since.
Please realize that this in no way makes me an expert, I have learned alot from the people who generously give of thier information on these blogs.
It is a real pleasure to communicate and share with them and you.
Welcome to an obsession
Very Best Regards
Alan
Alan, in my opinion the two best books for someone to read to get "hooked" on the LDM Legend if they have little to no knowledge of it are "The Killer Mountains" (which is the one that hooked me the most) and "Thunder God's Gold." While Helen Corbin, Thomas Glover and Sim's Ely's books are the best truly serious books to be read next.

I've been interested since I was a kid, but only got into about 6 years ago after reading "The Killer Mountains."
pippinwhitepaws
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Re: I Wonder

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

my introduction to those mountains was not from a book...oral histories at the firefall are the way to go...perhaps we can recreate that event.
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: I Wonder

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

Ronn's physical condition has prohibited him from visiting the Superstitions. It would seem that his best way to learn about them is through books and forums like this. It seems unlikely that the "firefall" event will ever be done again.

On the other hand, Ronn could probably make it to the Rendezvous which is an excellent venue for someone to learn about the people and unpublished stories about the range. Should he find a way to make it to the event, I would be happy to provide him with the means to move about on the property.

Joe Ribaudo
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Oroblanco
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Re: I Wonder

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigos,

Ronn I thank you as well for those kind words. I don't have any other sources to suggest, but would like to address one point that is a common mis-perception.

<you wrote>
Many people have made a fortune just writing about the LDM.
I think this is a commonly held belief among many people, however the truth is quite different. Treasure magazines pay only 2 or 3 cents per word and a few dollars for photos for articles published and no residual royalties; most of the book publishers whom have produced books on the LDM have been small presses with quite small printing runs, many of 5000 copies or even less. An author might receive 10 to 15% as a royalty on the book sales, and you will find that many (if not most) of the books on the LDM have been actually published at the expense of the author, the writer having to pay all the costs and then try to sell the books. I don't know of a single author who ever grew wealthy from the sale of treasure books of any kind. Even Barry Storm, whose book led to a Hollywood movie <Lust for Gold> ended up living in a small plywood shack.


That said, if the LDM were found yesterday and made public knowledge, it might result in a flurry of new books being produced. We can only speculate, but when it comes to treasure writers the writing is rarely limited by the facts on the ground.

Good luck and good hunting Ronn, I hope to meet you at one of the rendezvous some day.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
RONN
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Re: I Wonder

Post by RONN »

Good Evening Joe Ribaudo -
I read with great interest your recent post and I really don’t have the words to thank you for your offer of help at the next Rendezvous. I will make it or die in the attempt. Also, when you speak of the ‘firefalls’??????
Kindest Regards,
Ronn
PS: As October is right around the corner I might mention a couple things. Come October I will be 78 and I will probably be traveling with a lady friend, aged 67. In her day she was a world traveler so I am sure she will add a certain amount of interest to the Rendezvous. The drive from Los Angeles is only about 5 hours, so that is not too much of a concern. Once there I will probably be using a wheelchair or??? And one other important matter, I must have a map as to the specific directions to the LDM! (LOL).
alan m
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Re: I Wonder

Post by alan m »

Hello Ron
No problem about the map to the Lost Dutchman, we all have one and it is only fair that we share.
I do hope to meet you at the gathering in October.
Best Regards
Alan
RONN
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Re: I Wonder

Post by RONN »

And a Good Day to You - Alan -
Many thanks to you and everybody for your most welcoming posts. Really appreciate it.
Best Regards,
Ronn
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Re: I Wonder

Post by zentull »

Pip,

The firefall was a thing of wonder to me as a young boy. Probably would not be near as cool now as it was then. Of course I had no idea it was going to happen and that can only have that effect one time. I always wonder if Greg was one of our guides early on.....strange how those things play out over time. To sit at a campfire with Greg, Tom and Bob with my own son at the rendezvous was a pretty unique and wonderful thing.

I remember that first book"Killer Mountains" and because it was recent and I was just being introduced to the mountains its effect was different than any other book since. It gave it all such a great mystery.

And yes I still am out here.....mentioned to Joe recently about my work schedule. Last day off was January 29th and I am hoping for another before March ends!!!!! I slip in the mountains now and again, just not getting to spend the time I hope to each trip.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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Mike McChesney
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Re: I Wonder

Post by Mike McChesney »

RONN wrote:Good Evening Joe Ribaudo -
PS: As October is right around the corner I might mention a couple things. Come October I will be 78 and I will probably be traveling with a lady friend, aged 67.
CRADLE ROBBER! :D :D

Best-Mike
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