Kino's Gold the LDM?

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alan m
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Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Has anyone heard the story about how Father Kino came to place an alabaster cross on top of Weavers Needle?
I can only find slight reference to it, one is in Gentry's book "The Killer Mountains" and the other is an old Pima Indian legend;
Apparently the Pima Indians were troubled by string of Bad Luck and believed that a sacrifice was required, Father Kino opposed this and offered to appease the Thunder Gods by conducting a Mass and placing a cross in the Superstiton Mountains near the rock formation known as The Finger of God, we call it Weavers Needle. after entering the mountains with some of the Pima elders they discovered an area in Needle Canyon that was littered with gold. Kino recognized the threat that this posed for the Pima and ordered that it be gathered up and placed in a nearby cave then after the Mass he had the cave sealed. and placed an alabaster cross near the sight.
This cross was later destroyed by Marie Celeste Jones in the search for an old Jesuit treasure.

Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by Cubfan64 »

I know there was a story about Jones possibly finding an alabaster cross and destroying it (wasn't it supposedly located on the very top of the needle?), but I've never heard the story about Kino associated with the cross at all.

I'm not sure I've ever even seen undeniable proof that Kino made it that far north.
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by zentull »

I believe it was Jones who was the source of the Kino story. Of course She saw people going in and out of doorways near the top of Weavers needle..........
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

That is what Glenn Magill said, that the cross was on top of the Needle, but the climb is a technical grade 5 which means lots of equipment, experience and a little bit insanity.
As for the proof that Kino got into the Superstitions, only the Pima legend offers any, however one of Kinos three diaries has never been found, niether has his astrolabe.

Thanks for the feedback fellas
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by zentull »

Some of Jones spikes and ropes were still up there when I was a kid and made the climb. Wouldn't trust them though.......

It depends on the route as to the climbs difficulty.
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alan m
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Hello Zentull
So cool to have been able to explore the area as a youngster,
Today I consider myself fortunate to get into the mountains once or twice a season.
Do you think that Kino could have climbed the needle?
I would love to expolre that area, if the story is true about jones blowing up the cross, there must be some pieces of it around. I don't think alabaster is indigonous to the superstitions.
If pieces could be found it would support the Pima legend and maybe a Jesuit link to the LDM or a Jesuit treasure.
I know it sounds like an overused cliche' but the historical significance of such a find far outweighs the value of the gold. Too much as been destroyed by Tex Barkley and other Dutch Hunters.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by zentull »

I doubt Kino would have made that climb and set a cross there. Probably just a good story.
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by djui5 »

What did Tex do? He was a good man, just trying to feed his cattle.
Randy Wright
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by zentull »

Randy,

Most folks perception of Gus Barkley comes from books on the LDM and those authors created a perception that isn't very realistic. Barkley came from a family that raised cattle and bred horses. He worked his way up to foreman for Andersons outfit and later established his own ranch which became very successful under his and Gerties work ethic.

Ranching and Farming are 7 day a week jobs, you just don't take time off.

I believe he kept his ear out on who was out there and what was happening, but I have also heard he had very little tolerance towards many Dutch Hunters.

Why?

I am sure more than a few guys camped out at water holes and some even had a steak dinner on his families behalf.
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Hello Gentlemen
I do not blame Barkley, I am sure he had a good reason for destroying evidence of Spanish minning, But that means that clues and information, some maybe crucial, has been lost. I think that sucks, and whats worse is the park service is doing the same thing, destroying evidence.
Yes some people stole cattle from Tex Barkley and probably upset his cows aplenty, but Tex did not own the mountains and should have at least recorded where and what evidence he destroyed. I am a firm believer that people are responsible for thier actions and those people should be held accountable.
Incase it has slipped anyones attention, the Lost Dutchman Mine is one of the top ten lost treasure stories of the world, we are not just talking about some fools treasure but one of the few remaining examples of the historical role that gold played in the history of the world. Today it seems politicaly incorrect to discuss gold or spanish gold mines. The historians and anthroplogist prefer to discuss the meaning of subtle color differences in 800 year old pottery sherds. Good Luck with That!
It was gold that brought the conquistadors here and it was gold that drove them to endure unimaginable hardships. To ignore this fact is to deny ourselves the richness that our southwestern history holds.
OK how do I get down off of this soapbox?
Best Regards to all
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by Cubfan64 »

While Tex may or may not have damaged or even destroyed things in the Superstitions (is there documented proof of that or just hearsay?), I personally think it's more appropriate to leave names out of it - there's PLENTY OF BLAME to go around.

I would hazard a guess that in the last 150 years, the number of "things" damaged and destroyed in those mountains is in the thousands or 10's of thousands, and the number of people responsible is enormous as well and ever growing even today.
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

My apologies Gentlemen
You are right lets keep names out of it, but just for the record my information comes from Helen Corbins book " The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold " page 218 to 221.
Specifically a conversation between Tex Barkley and Walter Gassler.
It was not my intention to lay blame but just to realize that many clues to this enigma have been "lost". I am not so forgiving though to the park service.
I spent the better part of the fall of 2006 tracking down a clue on the eastern end of the mountains and discovered numerous cliff carvings of horses and even a spaniards face. The point is that most of these markers do not point to gold but rather to more important or immediate needs such as a defendable base camp or a grazing and water area. This is the historical part of which I speak.

Best Regards to all
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by djui5 »

Alan,
Do you have any pictures of the Spaniards face?
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
alan m
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Hello Randy
Yes I have a few photos, some are better than others, my next trip out I plan on waiting until the sun is in the best position for the shadows and get a better shot.
I am planning on a trip the last week of Febuary, if I can get away from work.
I am still learning how to post photos on this site.
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by zentull »

Plenty of stuff that should have been erased is still there...........funny thing about accusing someone of making something vanish, is it never has to be there in the first place!

Of course Storm went the other route and made things appear!

Funny guys those Dutch Hunters they get you to watch the right hand to ignore the left!

Alan,

Novice, Ozarker and a host of others taught me one thing: If you can't document it, question it! Gasslers manuscript is a great read, but I never could resolve why a man looking for the LDM tells another the place he should look, unless he wants him out of the way. Some of the best stories at the rendezvous are the hoaxes and gags they pulled on one another that become incorporated into the truth. I leave the rendezvous a little smarter every year.
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Hello Zentull
You are so right! I've spent the better part of my reseach running down false leads.
Everything is speculative untill the darn mine is found.
In the short time I have been on this blog, everyone has shown patience and given me much information and I am indebted to you all. I am looking forward to the rendezvous.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by djui5 »

alan m wrote:Hello Zentull
You are so right!
Alan
He usually is, that's why I hang out with him :lol:
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by Cubfan64 »

djui5 wrote:
alan m wrote:Hello Zentull
You are so right!
Alan
He usually is, that's why I hang out with him :lol:
Butt kisser :mrgreen:
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by Somehiker »

Course he is.
Never know when he might break something and need to be carried out like a backpack.
:roll: :oops:
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by djui5 »

If anyone is gonna need carried out it'll be me :lol: I've almost fallen off 600' cliffs, etc.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
alan m
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

At least someone will carry you out,
they will leave me lying there and take the gold :lol:
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Mike McChesney
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Alan,

I can tell you beyond any doubt that Father Kino NEVER laid an alabaster cross on top of Weaver's Needle.

I can say this because Kino kept very detailed journals of every one of his explorations. For the greatest majority of them, he was accompanied by Capt Juan Mateo Manje. Capt Manje also kept detailed journals of every exploration. Those journals were translated in the early 1900s by Herbert Eugene Bolton and later by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ (Jesuit). I have them all and have read them all more than once as Jesuit Treasures and explorations are an area of particular interest for me.

"Spanish Exploration in the Southwest 1542-1706" by Herbert E Bolton

Available as free download from Google Books.

"Luz de Tierra Incognita" by Juan Mateo Manje

Available for sale online.

Nowhere in any of the journals was anything like that mentioned, and something like that would have been.

What we know for certain is that the Jesuits went all the way around the Supers via the Salt River. No mention is ever made of going into the mountains.

Also, don't ever believe any stories about Father Kino being involved in any treasure adventures. If you knew anything about the man you would know that to be impossible. He was a devout Missionary.

But I absolutely do believe in the existence of Jesuit Treasure. :wink:

Best-Mike
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Hello Mike
I suspect that the story about the alibaster cross is fictional, however there was room for doubt and I wanted to cover all bases as much as possible.
One of Kino's diaries is missing along with his astrolabe and according to Jacobo Sedylmayer; entradas were taken into the mountains north without escorts because even when requested, the Jesuits could not get one.
This dose cover a time span from kino in 1698 to Sedylmayer in 1750. One very interesting account is of the dissaperance of Father Rapicanni for a period of about 4 months sometime around October, if there ever was a record of where he went it could have been in the records from Guebavi. The record book however has half of its pages missing. It seems to rule out loss by fire or Indians as one would expect the whole record book to be gone.
It is these little inconsistancies that are intriging and they are not explained away easily.
The history of the region fits well with all of the facts so far obtained except for the tablets being at Queen Creek. I cannot fathom how they could have ended up there.
If they were dropped on the way out of the mountains, it seems that they would have been left at the site where the gold was hidden. I am convinced that the treasure is 934 pounds, this would require at least six pack aminals for full recovery. The stone tablets weight about 75 pounds total, that represents 75 pounds of gold that would have to be left behind all for a set of tablets that had become worthless.
If they were lost on the way into the mountains, well this poses some problems in that the route near where the tablets were found is not the route indicated by the tablets and it seems that the tablets would have been copied onto parchment prior to the expedition departing.
Thank-you for the leads
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by Mike McChesney »

I don't know how you arrived at the 934 pounds when there is no documentation of any treasure being taken to the Supers.

What is your source for Father Rapicani's missing time?

There was a lot going on at Guevavi though that is not in any record book, but can be guessed at from letters and existing records.

I also don't believe whatever Jesuit Treasure is in the Supers is from Pimeria. I think the Pimeria Treasure is near Tumacacori, Az. I think what is in the Supers came from East of there. La Iglesia de Santa Fe. Santa Fe is on the Horse/Priest Stone twice. I think that when the Jesuits saw the end coming, they assigned each different Rectorate the responsibility of hiding their own wealth. That, I think, is the reason for so many Jesuit hidden treasure stories all over the place.

You should try and find the little book called "Pima's Dead Padres, and Gold" by Paul Lease 1965. It is an interesting read. I don't know if there is anything to the story, but it is interesting.

Best-Mike
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Re: Kino's Gold the LDM?

Post by alan m »

Mike
I will go through my research notes and find the source of my information on Rapicanni.
As for the book Dead Padres and Gold I have been searching for that book for years.
Best Regards
Alan
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