Travis Tumlinson

[zentull]

We should have the 2011 dates up as soon as Greg, Randy and I meet up in the same place for a few minutes.

[klondike]

Hello Alan,

I would like you to consider the knife on the heart map is pointing to the following coordinates on the Salt River:

N33 34.55
W111.21.27

If this is the case then the heart map works on multiple levels. One level takes you to Boulder Canyon, the other takes you to the vicinity of Coronado Mesa, Horse Mesa, and Barranca Grande. The neighborhood of Oz.

One might say then that the trail Maps are not really two maps but at least four. Throw in a few more and we have a real mess. Or maybe we don`t. It just looks that way.

One might also ask if the location on the Salt River is the end of the trail maps or just the beginning.

Seems like a lot of trouble if this is only about gold.

Klondike

[alan m]

Hello Klondike
Facinating info, I never thought about the area where the knife points but if the maps work on multiple levels, which I am sure you are right, then it would make for an even more convincing argument for thier authenticity. I have discovered that the meaning of many of the tablet symbols pertain to more than one thing and both seem to be valid.
I will look at this more closely. These stones seem to give back much more than they demand.

Alan

[klondike]

Hello Alan,

If you take the coordinates I provided and overlay the trail maps with a topographical map that reflects that coordinate it becomes very obvious quickly that the spot on the Salt River lines up with the heart map and trails and other things become clear very quickly.

But then again they line up with a final destination point of Boulder Canyon. Both conclusions are valid.

For me the trail maps operate much the way a multi-dimensional chess game works.

The horse and witch map are simply put a clever creation tied into a topographical map that takes one on a fine chase. The folks that created those maps are a devious butch.

All are real, the trail maps are authentic.

The knife is pointing to the Salt River because the water was always the way home.

Anyway food for thought.

For some reason all of this reminds me of the fellow who was tearing up the fish creek canyon area looking for the end of trail.

Klondike

[Mike McChesney]

Hey Alan,

What started out several years ago with a stupid question about the Stone Maps turned into an obsession.

I don't know if you believe in the authenticity of the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses, but if you do, you have to believe Tumlinson's Story.

I seriously researched Travis Tumlinson the man. Not one person who knew him has EVER come forth and said that he was anything but honest.

I highly doubt that he would have lied to his Uncle Robert about them and then drawn him a fake map showing where he found them. He and Robert had a bad falling out over the maps, and if they would have come from anyplace other than where Travis said, Robert would have told on him.

Travis took the freshly found maps to his friend Charlie Miller's home in Apache Junction where Miller helped clean them. Later, Miller told friends that when he was cleaning the stones there were still little roots in the grooves.

Since Tumlinson has never been shown to be anything other than honest, I take his story about finding them at face value.

My biggest problem is that they were all found together. I could see leaving the larger stones in place, but the two key stones (heart and latin heart inserts) should not be there. I think that a big possibility is that whatever they led to was recovered and the stones were dumped on the way out of the mountains. You have to remember that the Jesuits were reinstated worldwide in 1814. That leaves plenty of time to recover their treasure.

Travis Tumlinson wrote a manuscript in which he detailed finding the stones. After he and his wife died, their daughter (Janey) went to Texas to live with relatives. The manuscript might have gone with her. It has never been publicly seen. There is a chance that Clarence Mitchell got it and used it to help him write his book Superstition Treasures using the pen name "Travis Marlowe".

Best-Mike

[alan m]

Hello Mike
You and I share an obsession!
I am in total agreement that the tablets should not have been found together, just a couple of monsoon seasons in Arizona will convince anyone that the tablets should have ben spread out and washed away long ago.
I recall however that the stone crosses and the latin heart had been found some time later after the tablets passed on to Clarence Mitchell. I agree that there is no reason to suspect Tumlinson of anything other than honesty, unfortunatly the same is a streatch for Clarence Mitchell.
I have done some serious research into the history of the Jesuits back to thier beginning and am also convinced that there is a treasure hidden within the Superstitions and that the Jesuits had something to do with it.
It is facinating that all of the German Jesuits from the time period of 1736 to 1750 requested specifically to be sent to Sonora and that even when a Spanish governor requested that two German Jesuits stay and serve in Havanna, His request was DENIED.
There is so much circumstantial evidence that it defiies statistics.
I have concluded that the stone tablets are of Jesuit origin from around 1790 and that they pertaine to a treasure of 934 pounds of gold. It is hidden so well that you could stand on top of it and not be able to tell that anything had ever been disturbed.
This treasure will never be accedently found. Only by a complete decipherment of the tablets can the treasure be located.
All of this extensive work done to hide the treasure indicates that it was the Jesuits original intention of hiding it and they expected it to remain hidden for a very long time.
Thank-you for the info
Best Regards
Alan

[Mike McChesney]

Hello Mike
You and I share an obsession!
I am in total agreement that the tablets should not have been found together, just a couple of monsoon seasons in Arizona will convince anyone that the tablets should have ben spread out and washed away long ago.
I recall however that the stone crosses and the latin heart had been found some time later after the tablets passed on to Clarence Mitchell. I agree that there is no reason to suspect Tumlinson of anything other than honesty, unfortunatly the same is a streatch for Clarence Mitchell.
I have done some serious research into the history of the Jesuits back to thier beginning and am also convinced that there is a treasure hidden within the Superstitions and that the Jesuits had something to do with it.
It is facinating that all of the German Jesuits from the time period of 1736 to 1750 requested specifically to be sent to Sonora and that even when a Spanish governor requested that two German Jesuits stay and serve in Havanna, His request was DENIED.
There is so much circumstantial evidence that it defiies statistics.
I have concluded that the stone tablets are of Jesuit origin from around 1790 and that they pertaine to a treasure of 934 pounds of gold. It is hidden so well that you could stand on top of it and not be able to tell that anything had ever been disturbed.
This treasure will never be accedently found. Only by a complete decipherment of the tablets can the treasure be located.
All of this extensive work done to hide the treasure indicates that it was the Jesuits original intention of hiding it and they expected it to remain hidden for a very long time.
Thank-you for the info
Best Regards
Alan

Alan,

With all your research, you have a very serious flaw in your supposition:

"I have concluded that the stone tablets are of Jesuit origin from around 1790"

There were no Jesuits in 1790 (other than Russia, Prussia, and a very few other places). They were suppressed from all Spanish holdings in 1767 (with roundups in the remote areas into 1768). By 1769, every Jesuit from Spanish Lands was in prison in Europe. They were suppressed worldwide by Pope Clement XIV in 1773. The Order was reinstated in 1814. I don't think 1790 works.

Best-Mike

[alan m]

Hello Mike
Yea 1790 does not work very well, but there were some Jesuits who were not banished in 1767, namely the ones in California. It seems that any Jesuits who would have escaped being captured would have made for California. But I admit that it is a weak argument.
The extensive trail markers in the Superstitions as well as the evidence of large scale mining activity could only have been accomplished between 1790 and 1810 when General Hugh O'Connor was conducting his very succesful campaign against the Apache.
With that said, the information encrypted in the stone tablets could have only come from the Jesuits. A SERIOUS CONTRADICTION to be sure.
God I love a puzzle!
Best Regards
Alan

[Cubfan64]

The extensive trail markers in the Superstitions as well as the evidence of large scale mining activity could only have been accomplished between 1790 and 1810 when General Hugh O'Connor was conducting his very succesful campaign against the Apache.
With that said, the information encrypted in the stone tablets could have only come from the Jesuits.

Those seem like VERY bold statements to make without much to back them up.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Alan,

"With that said, the information encrypted in the stone tablets could have only come from the Jesuits."

I'm kinda in the same boat as Paul here. Can you provide some kind of supporting evidence for the above quote? Why not the Franciscans?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

[alan m]

Hello
The evidence for mining activity comes from James Bark, Sims Ely, and Barry Storm.
Tom Kollenborn has confirmed many of these.
The mesquite stumps on horse mesa, the arrastras at Aylors camp along with the charcoal kilns. Then there is the man made water system on top of Bluff Springs Mountain discovered by Glenn Magill and the remains of a large corral.
There was also a cave discovered with hundreds of hand made sandals, a bronze cross found in a shallow cave was obviously a miners shrine.
Then lets not forget the numerous accounts of gold having been found in the mountains, gold that was "loose" and not associated with a mine, having been dropped along the trail from the mine to the arrastras. All of this is well documented in the numerous well known books on the LDM.
As for the trail markers, Charles Kenworthy provides a good representation of most of the ones in the Superstitions and I have seen and photographed many of the ones that can be seen along First Water Trail. I have even discovered and photographed ones that have yet to be described by anyone including defensive walls that were not built by Indians or ranchers and appear to be very old.
As for the Jesuits or Fransiscans, I can only say that again the only time that these could have been surveyed and constructed was when the Apache had been pacified by General Hugh O'Connor, unless they are even earlier, then it would have to be around 1736, prior to the Apache claiming the Superstitions as thier own.
I do not think that the Fransiscans were in the area long enough to accomplish this.
The skill and knowledge needed to survey the trails was taught by the Jesuits in thier universities and it was Kino who accomplished the first practical mapping of Pimeria Alta.
If this does not convince you then I concede.
Best Regards
Alan

[Joe Ribaudo]

Alan,

Well it does not, but that's an impressive list of well worn stories. I believe you left Hawkeye out of the mix.

All is all, a nice job.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

[Cubfan64]

I won't argue the mining activity, although "large scale" may be open to interpretation.

As far as the Jesuit involvement in the making of the Stone Maps, admittedly I haven't seen as much out there physically as many of you, but can't see a direct line between the two.

[alan m]

Hello Mike
The 934 pounds figure is a typing error, it should be 924.6
If you place the heart stone into the heart cavity so that the six zero's can be seen, it forms the number 1000000, reading the whole upper tablet results in 1000000 R
The letter R comming from the upper right hand corner.
Taking this letter R to stand for Reales yields 1000000 Reales. But the Reale is a monitary unit for silver, not gold so we must find a common unit that applies to both silver and gold since it is gold that is so blatently indicated on the tablets.
8 Reales = 1 Peso
80 Pesos = 1 Mark
1.69 Marks = 1 Pound Troy
1 Mark = 640 Reales
1000000 Reales = 1,562.5 Marks
1,562.5 Marks = 924.6 Pounds Troy
At approximatly 10 pound troy per bar this would mean 92 to 93 bars of gold.
This is exactly how the Jesuits encrypt information in thier letters
Hidden in plain sight and this conversion is explicitly described in Pefferkorns book.
Why?
In order to succesfully recover the treasure, you need to know how much there is so that you can bring enough pack animals and supplies for the recovery and subsequint transport home.
Best Regards
Alan

[Mike McChesney]

Alan

Be careful putting a lot of faith in those zeros!

In the Peck Letters, his investigator states that Tumlinson carved some extra symbols into the stones. Specifically the six zeros.

Best-Mike

[alan m]

Hello Mike
You are right about putting faith in anything found on the tablets, especially after Clarence Mitchell possesed them for a time , however, the conversion works!
Is it a coincidence?
Best allways
Alan

[Somehiker]

Mike and Alan:
Could Tumlinson also have added the pointed upper section to the hat of the priest as well? Or Mitchell? Since that would also serve to mislead.

Regards:SH.

[alan m]

Hello Somehiker
I think we could play this game of trying to figure out whats real and what is not all day long.
My opinion is that travis added nothing to the tablets, all he had to do was say that he did, it would accomplish the exact same thing. People would doubt what they concluded.
I ask one question,
would you deface the tablets?
As I am sure you know from experience the same as I, at first you share nothing, then you share just a little bit, but in the back of your mind you long to confide in someone you can completly trust, a partner.
Travis admitted that he was looking for someone to partner with him and as you know, to partner with someone requires trust.
You cant have it if you fake markings on the map, even if you can rationalize your motive for doing so.
as for the priest hat, I think that it is authentic because there are a group of religous people in Seville Spain called the nazarcos, or something of the sort, just do a search for Seville Holy week and see the dudes with the pointy hats.
Best Regards
Alan

[Mike McChesney]

Alan,

The biggest problem with your statement is that Travis T never publicly made that statement. Only to a couple of very close friends. He was dead before that information even came out (about 1965 or so).

Paul,

A close look at the engravings might tell you all you need to know. As long as the stone maps have been in the public eye, there have been people saying that it looks like the stones have two sets of carvings on them. There may be a good reason for that.

Joe,

The reason I say Jesuit and not Franciscan is because the Franciscans have never had reason to hide anything on such a large scale. They could have paper/hide maps because they were never suppressed. They have grandiose churches just like the Jesuits.

The Franciscans have never had charges leveled against them like the Jesuits did. Notice that for all the Franciscans in the New World, you don't see all the stories of mining and wealth like are told about the Jesuits. Why is that? Actually, there are some stories about Franciscan Fathers owning mines, but there didn't seem to be any issues there.

Of all the Religious Orders operating in the New World, why is it, that ONLY the Jesuits were the subject of so many accusations? Maybe because where there's smoke, there's fire?

Best-Mike

[alan m]

Sorry Mike
But I fail to see the significance of weather Travis told one person or twenty
Alan

[alan m]

Mike
I forgot to ask you one thing
Where do you think the Horse / Priest tablet was found?
I know it may seem like I am beating a stone horse
Determining the truth about how they were found is crucial and you may be right, but a letter from someone, even Travis's best friend is not solid proof of anything except in that letters existance.
There were people who claimed to have seen Johnny Seel carve the tablets at the gas station where he sold them to Travis.
I do not believe that story but it comes to us as a first hand source.
Bear with me for a moment and consider that ever since Jacob Waltz claimed to have found the LDM, many people have been trying to discover its location, the same can be said of the Jesuit treasure hidden within the Superstitions. These people or I should say thier desendents could still be interested and could be behind the plethora of false leads and missinformation that plagues this topic.
You have cited a lot of evidence for the truth behind the story of how Travis discovered the tablets but the story itself STILL MAKES NO SENSE.
My investigation has uncovered evidence that is contrary to that story. My evidence may be faulty, but to find out it must be further investigated.
With all the letters and ideas from so many respected hunters, the LDM and the Jesuit treasure are still LOST and there is no reason to expect any new evidence to be forthcomming.
My interpretation of the tablets has lead me to discover an old spanish base camp, right where it should be according to the tablets, it may be a coincidence but it is very compelling evidence just the same.
Best Regards
Alan

[Mike McChesney]

Alan,

I put absolutely no stock in the Johnny Steele Story or any one of the other (at least) three stories of others who claimed to have found and sold the the stones to Tumlinson. He was the owner of them, and I choose to accept what he told both his wife, his uncle, and his good friends. Aileen Tumlinson told Mitchell the same story when she sold the stones to him after Travis died in 1961.

Personally, I think that the Jesuits, knowing the end was near, hid what wealth they weren't able to send overseas. They made the maps to guide them to the hiding places. The maps were hidden in the desert near where the first part of the wealth was hidden. The H/P Stone, along with the Heart Insert (and likely the Latin Heart) were hidden some distance away in a place that they had confidence would still be there after the Order was restored (however many years that may be). Maybe under the floor of a Mission or Church? The H/P Stone would tell you what is there, and where to find the Map Stones. Basically, the Cliff Notes of the treasure.

After the treasure was recovered, they unceremoniously dumped them together in a hole in the desert on their way back to Mexico. I think they didn't leave them where the treasure was because the Order has consistently denied the existence of any treasures, and the stones were less likely to be found in the desert in a hole than in a cave in the mountains.

Best-Mike

[Mike McChesney]

also,

I don't know that they recovered everything. What with the stories (very plausible stories at that) about a few caves of gold bars and a life sized golden statue of a priest (or whatever).

Mike

[alan m]

Hello Mike
Thank-you for the clear response
You mentioned the Jesuits hiding there treasure possiblly in the desert and I find that quite interesting.
I came across a book last week titled,"Enigma at Tumacacori" by Gary Don Oliver.
He states that he discovered Jesuit treasure signs and tunnels at and around the ruins of Tumacacori.
As I am sure you know, the main hub of Jesuit activity was Guevavi and the ares encompasses Tumacacori.
I have not read the whole book yet but it could support the notion of the existance of a Jesuit Treasure.
Best Regards
Alan

[Mike McChesney]

Alan,

I said:

The maps were hidden in the desert

Not the treasure, but the map stones.

As far as Tumacacori, I know Gary Oliver. He lives in Oregon and has been working on his site since about 1986. He has been going there since about 1979. Gary's fatal flaw is that he doesn't care about anything but DOWEL ROD HOLES in the rocks. He doesn't care about monuments or markings (other than the cross on the cliff).

If you got the book on Ebay, you bought it from him. Did you get the Picture CD? I have literally thousands of pictures of the different canyons around Tumacacori Mountain. If you get a chance, drive the Ruby Road from Nogales to Arivaca. Just be careful of Border Patrol and Illegals. If you drive it, you will see a ton of monuments and markings. There are even trees marked with crosses (this was the main route for Jesuit Fathers) along the Santa Cruz River. DO NOT GO THERE UNARMED! It's a place of rich history, but currently very dangerous.



Best-Mike