The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Ozarker
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Ozarker »

Hello All:

I need to apologize for not being more thorough in researching the Crazy Jake manuscripts for any mention of the John Kochera story. It turns out that Jake did include the April 1974 letter in his second manuscript, although he did not include either of the Haywood/Kochera maps. (Jake did refer to the maps in the text).

The following excerpt regarding Kochera can be found in the Robert S Jacob manuscript, The Legend of Crazy Jake, Book 4, Pages 121 to 126, and takes place beginning in January 1974:

"The weather was now very good and work went well, but we weren't having any luck at finding the mine. Days turned into weeks and the weeks into months, but still no luck. The year turned over to 1974 and in January I was sitting in camp one afternoon when a man and his sixteen year old son showed up. The man told me they were just hiking out in the mountains and had seen the smoke from my campfire and decided to stop in to say hello. I invited him to have dinner with us and spend the night in one of the tents if he and his son would like to. He said that to spend a night in a tent would be fine, for it was looking like it might rain. We sat there drinking our coffee and talking while we were waiting for the food to cook and the more I looked at this man the more I saw indications that he was an Indian. In my mind I was curious as to if he was out here in the mountains passing on to his son what his father had passed on to him. Was he showing this boy where the great mine was or was it just as he had told me that he was just hiking in the mountains. I never asked anything of him, but just listened to what he was saying. He never asked anything of me. Not even to ask what we were looking for. After we all had eaten and had a couple more cups of coffee we all turned in. The next morning, after everyone had eaten, the man and the boy both thanked me for my hospitality and left. As they were leaving I felt that the man knew a lot of things that I would have liked to have known. As I watched them make their way up the canyon and out of sight, I felt that I was seeing the last of them. I was wrong, for this man and the short time we were together, was going to be a very important person in the search for the mine they called the Dutchman.

That afternoon we ran out of fuse and it was necessary that I go to town and get some more. I had thought that we had more there in camp, but noone could find where it was, so I saddled Blacky up and headed to town. It was a good day and Blacky really liked to run, so the miles flew by under his feet and the next thing I knew I was coming into First Water parking lot. There at the back end of an old International Carryall, making coffee on a Coleman stove on the tailgate, was my Indian from out in the mountain. Up till this time I had never even heard him mention his name, but now he told me it was Johnny. He insisted that I have a cup of coffee with him, seeing it was ready. I was ready for a cup and so it was that the two of us ended up sitting there on rocks in the parking lot, drinking our coffee together. He was a pleasant person, even if he didn't say much. After we finished the coffee and had a couple of refills I told him I had to go on into town, but if he would like, why not stop in in the morning and have breakfast with me. He said that would be fine, and so I told him how to find where I lived in town and then headed on toward home.

The next morning just after I had gotten up I looked out the window to see the Carryall pulling up. He had accepted my invitation to breakfast and was there to eat with me. As we sat there eating I noticed that he kept eyeing some jars of Chrysocolla that I had on the window sill. He finally asked if I would sell him fifty dollars worth. I told him, "Hell, I'll sell you five hundred dollars worth if you want it!" He replied, "Fifty dollars is all I have and if you'll sell me that much I can go from rock shop to rock shop on the way home and sell it for enough to get home." I asked him if he was tapped out and he told me he was. I just smiled and told him to get his Carryall and follow me down in back. There in back I had three flat-bed trailers with about ten ton of number one grade rock on each one. I told him to open up the back of his Carryall and I proceeded to load that thing till the springs were bent over double. When there was no more room, Johnny was standing there with his fifty dollars in his hand held out toward me. I just shook my head and told him to put it back in his pocket for coffee money on the way. We went back and had a couple more cups of coffee and then he was ready to put his show on the road to get started toward home, I was never to see Johnny again, for though I didn't know it at the time, I had given him the means to buy the equipment that was going to kill him. However, I was to hear from him again and in a very strange way, and it would be that letter and its contents that would let me go on to find the mine. This didn't happen for a couple of more months and during this time the crew I had fell apart at the seams, and by the time it was all over there was just the little Mex, Vern and myself left. Warm weather was once again setting in and so was the Forest Service. They were doing their damndest to get me the hell out of the mountain. Everything on top of everything else, I felt pretty rotten.

I was sitting there in town one day and I was told that I had a couple of registered letters up in the Post Office that I was going to have to pick up myself. The thought of registered letters never turned me on, for they were usually from the Forest Service with some more of their latest bull****. But that afternoon I decided to go see for myself, and so it was that I arrived at the Post Office to find that I not only had one letter from The Bureau of Land Management telling me they were setting a date for a formal hearing on kicking me out of the mountain, but I also had one addressed to CRAZY JAKE, Apache Junction, Arizona. This one really got to me, for it was a big brown envelope. I had to sign for it, not only as Robert S. Jacob, but also as Crazy Jake. I got some humor out of this part and it sort of off-set the feeling I had gotten when I had read the letter from BLM. When I opened this second letter I was surprised to see what it had to say and I started reading:

4 April 74

Dear Jake

With this letter I am enclosing a copy of the assays I had made on the ore we found. They are not to impressive. Just thought you might care to know. Also enclosed are a map that I will detail to you. I don't have the money to search for it. I am a darn good prospector but a piss poor salesman and I can't get any money men to sponsor me in a search. So I am giving it to you. You seem to be an honest person and since you have about all the maps available I would like you to have these also. I hope you find it and if you do remember me in some small way.

In I960 I met an Apache Indian named Haywood, he was from the Verde river country in Arizona. He was in Milwaukee going to vocational school, which the Government sent him to along with some others. We became good friends and one night he was over at my house and we got to drinking heavy. I started talking about finding gold in Mexico and then he told me this.

In the spring of 1942, he and 14 other men went on horses up the salt river to Labarge Canyon. Then up Labarge Canyon to squaw canyon. They turned up squaw canyon, passed by the box canyon, then passed on the north side of three red hills. Then turned north about 1 mile and turned west to a hill north of the box canyon. There is a tunnel at the south side base of the hill, with brush and small trees nearly hiding it. They then went to the top of the hill and uncovered a pit. They took about $50,000 in gold. When they left they covered the pit again. The vein of gold is in soft black rock and on both sides of the black vein is red rock.

Haywood was 37 years old when I met him. He believed strongly that something bad would happen if he told a white man but since I am part Indian he thought it would be alright. In July I960 he and another guy was killed in a head on crash with a trailer truck.

For 14 years I've kept this to myself and you are now the only person I've told this to. I hope it does some good to you. I personaly believe this is the dutchmans mine. I wish I could search for it but just don't see how. I would appreciate hearing from you on what you think of this.

I'll close for now and if you have any questions I'll be glad to help you out. I believe you are the person all this was pre destined for.

Good Luck and best wishes
Johnny

P.S. These are machine copies of the originals


This was one hell of a letter and I guess it was the way they said, "You had to take some bad with the good." The letter from BLM was the bad, and this was the good. The machine copies that he mentioned were of the two maps Haywood had drawn for him. They were really great, for they had all modern place names and the canyons were called just as they were now. These two maps gave me detail beyond the wildest dreams. They told the story only as an Indian could tell it. If you could think like an Indian and realize what he was saying you had it made. I felt I had all these qualities. Now all I had to do was get another crew together and this time I was going to have to make damn sure that they could be trusted and not just another bunch of flakes. I told myself, "Remember, Jake, the 'tortoise won that f***king race, not the hare!" Now it was time to go slow, but be sure. To find the crew I wanted was going to have to take time and it was going to be a case of working the hell out of whoever tried out for this crew to see if they could take it. It wasn't going to be just a case of some guys walking into a soft spot and getting rich quick. I wanted a crew, that no matter what happened, they would stay with the program even if the going got tough. There would be a lot of guys try out for this team, but damned few were going to make it.

Vern and I tried to settle down in a little house in Apache Junction while I decided just how we were going to do all this. I felt that I knew what was being said on the maps that Johnny had sent me, but at the same time, there was a little bit of field work that was going to have to be done to be able to mark the exact spot. To find the entrance might take a little bit of time, but I thought I could do it with ease once I got back into the hills. Right now I had to get ready for a BLM hearing and all the bull*** that would go with it. The funny part about it I realized that where I had been working wasn't really the prime area. From the maps that Johnny had sent me the mine itself was going to lay to the east of where we had been working. All we had found so far didn't even pertain to what the Peraltas had been doing. All we had found was extra. If it hadn't been for the mistake in what Bill had thought was the prime area, we wouldn't have found what we did. The thing that was confusing was how were the stone maps supposed to work. There was no way of getting thru the cliffs on the east side of Squaw Box. Even on the map Johnny had sent me I felt that they, the Indians, had gone around and up thru Charleboise Canyon. I knew that the stone maps also had to work or we wouldn't really have a case to call whatever we found the Lost Dutchman. There was no way of stretching the one end of the stone maps to go to the east to include Charleboise and leave the other end to scale to the trail thru the north end of the red hills. There had to be a trick to it, but the question was what was that trick?"
Ozarker
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Ozarker »

In light of the previous excerpt, the passage below by Crazy Jake seems a bit odd.

[Note: In the spring of 1970, Crazy Jake visited Al Morrow in Al's camp and found that Al, having lost his financial backers, was out of food and broke, and had lost a lot of weight and was in generally poor shape. He convinced Al to come into town and stay with him at his place for awhile. One night they were talking Dutchman and briefly touched on the Silas Haywood story, and Jake apparently had a different opinion about the subject, as shown in the following passage]:
"At night Al and I would sit at the table drinking coffee and talking Dutchman. He knew a hell of a lot that he had learned over the years and, though we both had differences of opinion about the different stories, Al knew that I too had gathered a lot of information in a very short time compared to the years he had put in. The one thing that we were both in agreement on was the fact that the Indians knew where the mine was, but for some reason, had no desire to attempt to claim it. Al told me the story that he had heard about the Indians showing up in the early 1940's in Kansas City to buy cattle to improve their herds and paying for them with gold. He said that they had spent fifty thousand dollars on this cattle and it had all been paid for with yellow metal. I asked him if he had ever heard of anyone that had actually gotten to talk to any of the Indians that had been on this trip to get the gold and he replied that he hadn't. I felt that this, like so many of the stories that you heard around was most likely just so much more bull****."
Excerpt from The Legend of Crazy Jake (Book 3, Pages 123-124)
Roger
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Was Kochera Part Indian????

Post by Roger »

Larry,

Several interesting statements by Crazy Jake on his two meetings with Kochera a day apart:

1. the more I looked at this man the more I saw indications that he was an Indian

2. There at the back end of an old International Carryall, making coffee on a Coleman stove on the tailgate, was my Indian from out in the mountain.

3. Note also that Jake had "Silas" for the first name of Haywood.

Crazy Jake had probably been around enough Indians in his day to be able to recognize an individual with some noticeable Indian blood/features. Maybe Kochera did have some Indian blood in him.

Roger
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Larry,

Can you tell us how sure your are of the authenticity of the second manuscrip? How long have you had it?

Thanks,

Joe
Ozarker
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Ozarker »

Hello Roger/All:

I'm sorry for causing more confusion. I seem to be batting 1.000 on this topic so far, heh-heh.

Regarding the use of the name "Silas" in my last post, that was actually just my editorial note, setting up the scene in which Crazy Jake and Al Morrow were talking that night in 1970.

The only mention of Haywood in Jake's manuscript is what appears in the quotation (boxed) portion of my post. Other than quoting Kochera's letter itself, Jake only uses Haywood's last name once, and neither he or Kochera ever mentioned "Silas" (as far as Crazy Jake's manuscript or the 1974 Kochera letter goes).

Another thing I should probably point out here is that the topic that Al Morrow was discussing with Jake (the 1940's visit to the mine by Indians who retrieved $50,000, which they then used to buy cattle) is not, in and of itself, "the Haywood Story". It is simply one remarkably similar element of it that happened to be recounted by John Kochera four years later in his letter to Crazy Jake. (Note: a very similar story also appears in Barney Barnard's book, The Story of Jacob Walzer). Crazy Jake surely changed his opinion of such stories, if what he later said about the Kochera information finally allowing him to reopen the mine is to be believed.

Regarding whether John Kochera had Indian heritage, I am not absolutely certain but in my opinion I'd say the odds are stacked against it. Although I've seen the anecdotes by various individuals and even the stories attributed to Kochera himself, I've also seen the genealogy on both his mother's and father's side of the family, and there is no indication of it. That's not to say it is impossible, just that it's improbable.

Whether Kochera had some trace of Native Ameriacan blood or whether he could pass for or be mistaken as an Indian is an issue that might not ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The thing is, certain parts of the Kochera story as it has come to be known simply could not have been true (for example, Kochera spending the first 10 years of his life on the San Carlos Indian reservation). This in turn naturally calls into question whether any story related to Haywood might also be suspect.

Hello Joe:

I'm working from a copy that can be vouched for by Greg Davis or anyone else that has a copy of the second Crazy Jake manuscript. Hope that helps and that all is well on your end. Take care.

Larry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Larry,

Thanks for the quick reply. I trust you and the family are also doing well.

I assumed that Greg was your source, although Steve also came to mind.

It would be interesting to know who Greg received it from. As you know, there are a lot of "authentic" documents floating around concerning the LDM. Much of it comes from highly reliable and trusted sources. As you also know, a good deal of that kind of information is total B.S.

Many of my good friends in the Dutch Hunting community have been victims of this kind of fraud. It might be a good idea to find out who brought this manuscript to Greg, and where they got if from. Can you tell me when you received it from Greg?

Thanks.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Ozarker »

Joe:

I received my copy of the second Crazy Jake manuscript in late 2008. I actually learned of the manuscript from a discussion that you were having with Peter back in 2004, which you can revisit at this link:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... manuscript

I beleive there was a more detailed discussion of how the manuscript was organized as well as some of its history and I'll see if I can find that. If so, I'll pass that info to you in an e-mail.

Larry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thanks Larry,

I was on my way to that topic through my good friend "Search". As you read on, you will find that Kraig Roberts made a few posts, which he later deleted. One was the story of his meeting Jake in the mountains after he got out of prison. I still have that story.

As I understand it, the 800 page manuscript was the first one that Jake wrote. That one was stolen from Jake, and later returned. There are said to be a number of variations, but I wonder if that original version mentioned Kochera?

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by novice »

I never thought there was much fuzz on the 625 page Crazy Jake manuscript. I do have a few thoughts that may run contrary to some peoples opinion but that is par for the course.

People have hinted that Jake wrote this manuscript while in prison. Since Greg got Jake’s material after the trial and it had been confisticated during the investigation, it seems to me the manuscript had to be written sometime before. I believe Jake penned this, perhaps several years, before he went to prison. I would have to go back but I believe the various incidents to which Jake refers stop about 1978-1979. The manuscript does end abruptly and it’s not clear whether Jake intended to keep adding on and other events simply overtook him. I personally suspect Jake wrote this in the 1978-1979 timeframe and he hoped to use it in some manner to make some money. Maybe it, along with some other things, worked because Jake was in money not too long after this.

When Bob Corbin gave his presentation at the 2009 rendezvous about Crazy Jake it was apparent that he was drawing on some of the stories that Jake told in this manuscript. It is obvious that Jake was full of himself and had no compulsion about lying. Early in the manuscript, Jake had killed ten or eleven people, some with an axe and described his sexual exploits in detail.

The fact that Jake was obviously a liar and some of the manuscript was devoted to murder, sex, alcohol, etc., there is a tendency to dismiss everything in it and a waste of time to even read. What we do find however is that the people and events, referred to in the manuscript, track very closely in some cases to events that are supported by documents. There are some nuggets included.

One of these nuggets is the Kochera story. One of the things that I found interesting was Jake’s reference to Kochera’s 16 year old son. This fits the genealogy. Of course the timeframe for the encounter and the resulting letter all fit perfectly.

In addition to the 625 page manuscript, there is an earlier one that Jake prepared (About 150 pages). Lots of maps but it was never completed and is in a rather rough state. It has been the popular choice for Dutch Hunters with the longer version being placed on the back burner.

There are hints of other manuscripts by Jake but these two are the only ones I have seen. The others probably fall in that category of yes they exist but they have secret information and cannot be shared. “Yeah, Right!” I’d be rich if I had a dime for every time that story was trotted out.

Larry dug these particular posts out and I hope he won’t mind me adding them here. I hope I’m not stealing something he intended to use to make a point but they seem to fit with my rant.
Greg’s backgound for the 625 page manuscript;

Gregory E. Davis
06-11-2008, 05:11 PM
Hello Johnny Quest: Some ten to fifteen years ago, Bob Corbin made arrangements for me to meet and talk with Mr. Mike MacAfee. Mike was the primary investigator for Bob with regards to the case brought against Robert Jacobs. Mike and I talked for over an hour about Jacobs and toward the end of the meeting he pointed to three boxes of papers in the corner of his office. He said they held the material used by the AG's office to investigate and prosecute Jacobs. They contained copies of Jakes manuscript, his business records, investigative reports, legal papers, correspondances, maps and many more items. This was the stuff they did not return to Jake. Mike said that the legal time for keeping those papers had expired and he was going to throw them out. I asked if I could have them for the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Mike said; "Go ahead", so I hauled off three boxes of Jakes papers and today there are in two legal size file drawer s, organized, and available for public viewing on an appointment basis. Johnny I am a retired freight pilot but NOT a helicopter pilot nor did I ever work for Jake. Could the story have gotten mixed up with me or is there another pilot out there that got some more of Jakes papers? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
Greg also refers to other versions of the manuscript;

Gregory E. Davis
06-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Hello Johnny: Jake produced several versions of his manuscript during the course of its creation. The final version consisted of five sections called "Books" and they were numbered Book one through Book five. Each of these Books/Sections contained over one hundred pages and were numbered one to over one hundred. The last Book/Section was less than one hundred. One of the Book/Sections contains the maps with descriptions, background information and a drawing of each map. The final version of the manuscript total six hundred and twenty five pages. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
Maybe Greg can chime in here regarding the "other versions"?

Garry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by novice »

Guys,
In my previous post, I wrote::

One of these nuggets is the Kochera story. One of the things that I found interesting was Jake’s reference to Kochera’s 16 year old son. This fits the genealogy. Of course the timeframe for the encounter and the resulting letter all fit perfectly.
While the timeframe and resulting letter part of the story fit, the 16 year old son does not! Kochera’s oldest son was born in 1952 and this encounter took place in 1974. I have no idea how I kept getting the arithmetic screwed up.

Luckily Larry Hannah caught the error before it has gone too far. He was kind enough to contact me privately to try and save me embarrassment.
Larry wrote;

According to the tree John Kochera had only two sons, Michael (born 1952) and Christopher (born 1968), and they would have been about 22 and 6, respectively, in 1974 when Kochera visited Crazy Jake's camp.
So much for saving me from embarrassment! :oops:

From the hip, I would have to say that Crazy Jake was simply adding a son for effect.

We will have to chalk this part of the tale up to Garry being a "DUH" and Jake being a "liar". Neither case should surprise anyone.

Garry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

"As I understand it, the 800 page manuscript was the first one that Jake wrote. That one was stolen from Jake, and later returned. There are said to be a number of variations, but I wonder if that original version mentioned Kochera?"

I stand corrected. It was 625 pages. It seems unlikely that Jake ever wrote a second manuscript. What is more likely, is that some Dutch Hunters received copies of the original and.....massaged it, creating additional versions.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

This is a picture which includes Klinekole. He is number 18:

Image

The picture was taken in 1907. I am working on getting some personal family history.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

This is a picture of Sam Klinekole. I believe the Klinekole in the 1907 picture was probably his father....or grandfather. He was the stepson of Daveko, a famous and powerful medicine man of the Kiowa Apache.
Daveko named Sam "Blue Clouds", after a tepee. 8O

Image

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Ozarker »

Hello Joe:

You said:
I stand corrected. It was 625 pages. It seems unlikely that Jake ever wrote a second manuscript. What is more likely, is that some Dutch Hunters received copies of the original and.....massaged it, creating additional versions.
I have to disagree with you here, as I am of the opposite opinion. I think it unlikely that Crazy Jake stopped at a second version of his manuscript.

About a year after arriving in Arizona, Crazy Jake formed The L. D. Mining Corporation. The Articles of Incorporation for that company can be found at the Maricopa County Recorder website (Docket 5710 Page 163) at the following link:

http://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata ... ect2.aspx

(Just enter the docket and page number in the appropriate fields and hit search).

One of the stated purposes of Jake's first corporation was to develop and sell documentation and ideas concerning any mines or tresaures the corporation might find, as stated in this article:
"To develop, sell, publish and otherwise disseminate any and all knowledge, information and story rights regarding the discovery, location and finding of said minerals, ores, or other products and all other things of value whatsoever that may be found in or on such lands, and to hold, own, use, or turn to account the same."
An identical clause would be included in the Articles of Incorporation for the next company Jake formed less than 2 years later, the Jacob-Aylor Land, Cattle, and Mining Company (Docket 6417 Page 687).

The two Crazy Jake manuscripts I've reviewed looking for Kochera anecdotes are entitled:

"I Came, I Saw, I Conquered" (approx 150 pages)

"The Legend of Crazy Jake" (625 pages)

If you go back a few posts, Garry quoted a description of Crazy Jake's manuscripts from Greg Davis, in which Greg indicated there were several versions of Jake's manuscripts, and I do not doubt Greg's word on this. In fact, in a 7 July 1970 newspaper article interview of Crazy Jake, the reporter comments on one version of the manuscript that Jake had just completed (80,000 words in triplicate typed by Jake himself) entitled "The Ghost on My Shoulders". (The ghosts that traveled around on Jake's shoulders were Chuck Aylor and Bill Barkley primarily, but later on they were joined by Tom Daley, and I believe Al Morrow). I haven't seen that version of the manuscript, and am not even sure it still exists, or whether it would add anything to the discussion regarding Kochera.

I can picture Jake in the mountains, sitting in the relative comfort of his shaded tent typing away on his manuscript while his work crews were out with picks and shovels, stripping the southwest side of Malapais and the west side of Peter's Mesa down to bedrock. (Sorry treasure hunters, but this was Jake's primary idea on how to find the mine, and not through the use of any secret maps or information).

There may be merit in starting or restarting a thread on the topic of Crazy Jake's manuscripts, but only if someone is willing to take the time, make an appointment with Greg, and try to sort out the life cycle of Jkae's writings. I'd be interested in such a topic, but from a different angle than whether others might have been involved in their development.

Larry

P.S. Great pictures of Klinkole. Looking forward to the story behind him and how it fits with Peck's notes (if that connection can be made?).
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Ozarker »

Hmmm...

Let's try the link for the Maricopa County Recorder again:

http://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata ... lect2.aspx
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by novice »

I have no idea why Peck made this notation on the notes he created regarding a phone call with John B. Kochera on November 8, 1995. (See previous post of Peck Telephone Notes Photo)

“Klinekole 92 yrs old in 64 Apache Indian in New Mexico”

The structure of the note seems to be a response, (from Kochera?) as opposed to a question that Peck drew up beforehand. It may be related to Peck’s question: How did Black Top Mesa get into this?

At this juncture it is probably of no matter, since I am just guessing. Perhaps if we can identify Klinekole and determine any connection to Arizona it might become clearer.

I think the Klinekole genealogy is slowly coming into focus. They were real and they did have connections to New Mexico. Other than that, things are still fuzzy.

I am anxiously awaiting Joe to continue to shed light on this family. If it is a dead end, as far as Kochera is concerned, it still will not be wasted history.

Larry,

Your way ahead of us as usual on the Crazy Jake Manuscripts. About the only solid thing I have seen beyond your overview, of the three possible manuscripts, is Greg's comment in answer to Johnny Quest.

"Jake produced several versions of his manuscript during the course of its creation."

Greg seems to be indicating that he has seen other versions or it could be that he is in the same boat as everyone else and he has "heard" of other versions?

Everything else, at this time, is "somebody told me".

From my view, I don't think the provenance of the Crazy Jake manuscripts are off subject but may play an important role in understanding the Kochera story. Understanding how they were created, when, and why is going to be key to understanding the references to Kochera.

Garry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I had seen Sam Klinekole's granddaughter's obit. In a number of places. The information of when he died will probably have to come from the family.

Kochera's Klinekole was born in 1872. If that was Sam, he was 35 years old in 1907, when that group picture taken. Looking at it, I could buy that. Indians on the plains aged quickly.

I will have more information shortly.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

This is our Sam:

1920 United States Federal Census
about San Kline Rola Name: San Kline Rola
[Sam Kline Kole]
[Sam Kline Rola]
Home in 1920: Abilene, Caddo, Oklahoma
Age: 59
[54]
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
[abt 1866]
Birthplace: Oklahoma
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
[Head]
Spouse's name: Dahhaly Kline Rola
Father's Birth Place: Oklahoma
Mother's Birth Place: New Mexico
Marital Status: Married
Race: Indian (Native American)
Sex: Male
Home owned: Own
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
San Kline Rola 59
[54]
Dahhaly Kline Rola 67
Bertha Kline Rola 17

I hope to hear from one of his ancestors tomorrow.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

This is Stewart Klinekole in 1961:

Image

Getting closer.....

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

These two pictures were taken of Sam Klinekole in 1933-34 by
J. C. McAllister:

Image

Image
Apache Sam Klinekole is holding a cermonial staff in the above picture.

Sam was around 75 years old at the time. That places his birth at around 1858. His stepfather was Daveko, a very famous and respected Kiowa-Apache Medicine Man.

Still looking for his father, but things are slowing down.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by novice »

Joe,

Thanks for all of the effort, the history and great pictures.

I will try to summarize the Klinekole reference by Richard Peck. We have probably gone as far as we can unless we find a smoking gun of a treasure story involving a Klinekole.

I don’t know for sure when the Klinekole surname is first used but I suspect it was in conjunction with the reservation bureaucracy and the need to track individuals by a last name. I also believe that Klinekole was a unique name beginning with “Apache Sam” and it evolved into the final form of Klinekole after several years. I believe all present day individuals named Klinekole can probably trace their ancestry to “Apache Sam” [We have not run across "any" other Klinekole’s in the earlier period (1850-1900)]

Sam was a given name that is not included in the original references. That name would come later. Sam’s two sons had Indian given names but they too also took more conventional names (Stewart and Gregg)

The U.S. Indian Census Schedules, 1885-1940 on Ancestry.com, are a great tool for tracing Indian ancestry. By 1885 the reservation system was in full swing and the census was taken frequently.

June 30, 1905 Census for the Kiowa Agency near Lawton, Oklahoma.

We find the following entry for our Apache Sam (Kline-ko-le), his wife Dah-tay-hay and their children.

Image

It appears that, although Sam could have had other children earlier, Stewart, Gregg and Bertha were the only individuals to carry the surname beyond Sam. I believe that “all" persons carrying the Klinekole surname can also trace their ancestry to either Stewart or Gregg.

If someone can come up with an earlier reference to Klinekole, I would be very interested.

As Joe has already told us, Sam was a Kiowa Apache. This is not one of the identified sub tribes of Apache but a unique group who shared the Athapaskan language origins with the Apache.

In the census the Klinekoles are frequently identified as just Apache and Sam’s wife Dah-tah-hay is identified as Comanche.

We can see the problem already with Peck’s reference to Klinekole who was 92 in 1964. (Born about 1872). Apache Sam was born about 1859 and his sons were born about 1888 and 1894.

We have no record of a Klinekole who was born anywhere close to 1872. We can assume that Peck had the year of birth wrong and try to proceed.

In the 1938 Census at the Kiowa Agency near Lawton we find Apache Sam dying on June 6, 1937. He is buried in the Cashe Creek Cemetery near Apache, Oklahoma.

Image


Also buried in the Cashe Creek Cemetery is, Sam's son, Greg Klinekole. (1893-1938)

The remaining candidate for Peck’s Klinekole is Stewart Klinekole. Joe has provided a picture taken in 1961.
From the Social Security Death Index we find our Stewart.
Stewart Klinekole
SSN: 445-52-2172
Last Residence: 73006 Apache, Caddo, Oklahoma, United States of America
Born: 2 Jul 1887
Died: Mar 1973
State (Year) SSN issued: Oklahoma (1966)
At least Stewart Klinekole was alive in 1964 but we also see Peck’s New Mexico connection proving to be a difficulty.

There is a connection between the Klinekole’s and the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico. Just nothing involving Stewart, himself.

Returning to the Social Security Death Index, we find two of Gregg’s sons (Bruce and George) living in Otero County, New Mexico. It is not known when they arrived but Bruce was issued his social security number in New Mexico in 1956.

There are also references to a Bruce Klinekole, Mescalero Apache tribal member. This is most likely a descendant and not the Bruce who died in 1981.

Who were Peck and Kochera talking about? Who Knows!

Garry

Just a side note:

Several of the Klinkole’s served in World War II and Bruce survived the Bataan death march. The family appears to have all still been in Oklahoma during the war. I want to paste in an article from a newspaper that identifies several of the Klinekole boys and their role in the conflict.
KLINEKOLE, SGT. BRUCE, 23. He was one of those Caddo County boys who fired bullets into the Japs on Corregidor until exhaustion forced the fall of that American fortress. Now in training for the time when he can aid in the liberation of his Indian brother, SGT. DUNLAP KLINEKOLE, 21. Both fighters are the sons of Mrs. Julia Klinekole and the late Gregg Klinekole of Apache. Also in the fight for liberation of their kin are two cousins, PFC. HOUSTON KLINEKOLE and WILLIAM B. KLINEKOLE, F 3C, USN, who recently has been moved from New Caledonia in the Pacific to another allied held island. Bruce Klinekole enlisted in the army in December of 1940 and took his training at Fort Bliss, Texas. He sailed from San Francisco for the Philippine Islands, landing there in August of 1941. In the last message received from the Corregidor he wrote, "My health is good. I am uninjured. I am well. Let the rest of the family know I am okay." Pfc. Houston KLINEKOLE, 29, and William B. KLINEKOLE, 16, are the sons of Mr. and Mrs. Stewart KLINEKOLE of Apache. Houston entered the army in February of 1943. He attended school at Chilocco. His daughter is with his parents. He is stationed somewhere in the South Pacific. William attended school at Boone. He is single and has been stationed at Farragnt, Idaho. CPL. GEORGE KLINEKOLE is the son of Mrs. Julia Klinekole and brother of Mrs. Ellis Aunquoe of Apache. George attended the Fort Sill Indian School and entered the army in January of this year. He is now stationed somewhere in the eastern war zone.
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by novice »

I know I promised everyone in a previous post that I would not bore them with the genealogy of John B. Kochera’s mother, Mabel Boswell. John Kochera’s alleged Indian connection is a hard one to let go of. I’m sure there will always be some level of doubt, for some, no matter how the genealogy is presented. John’s father was born in Hungary so any Indian blood must come from his mother’s side.

Below is a family tree for Mabel Boswell (John B. Kochera’s mother)

Image

Mabel’s parents were Gerald Egbert Boswell and Maude Wagner. Her grandparents on her father’s side were David Boswell and Mary Wells while on her mother’s side, the grandparents were Albert Wagner and Mary Case.

We have also identified the great grandparents of Mabel on the Boswell side.

While I’m sure it would be possible to extend Mabel’s tree back further, it becomes an exercise where little meaningful could be added to the John B. Kochera Indian heritage question.

All of Mabel’s ancestors were clustered in the Indiana and Illinois areas from about the end of the Civil War forward.

We can use the U.S. Census as our best tool for trying to determine if we can uncover any Indian Heritage for Kochera.

The U.S. Census from 1850 through 1930 has a column for Race.

1850 and 1860 - The census taker was to enter if the person was White, Black, Mulatto.

1870 and 1880 -The census taker was to enter if the person was White, Black, Mulatto, Chinese, or Indian.

1900 – The census taker was to enter if the person was White, Black, Chinese, Japanese or Indian. (The term Mulatto was dropped)

1910 – The census taker was to categorize the race as White, Black, mulatto, Chinese, Japanese, or Indian. There were separate Indian population schedules.

1920 – The census taker was to categorize the race as White, Black, mulatto, Chinese, Japanese, or Indian. There were no separate Indian population schedules.

1930 – The census taker now had 10 categories for Race. White, Negro, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, Filipino, Hindu, and Korean.

For all of the individuals shown in Mabel’s tree, their census information identifies them as White in “all” cases.

Again there is no hint in any of the “documents” that John B. Kochera has any Indian blood whatsoever. All we have are stories and we’re not even sure who it was that started the story. My take is that the story came from “Zig-zag Canyon” for which no claims were ever made regarding the factualness of all the details. It is identified as fiction but people have built on some events as fact.

Garry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Good morning Garry,

Nice work. I think that we could safely say that Kochera was not born on the San Carlos Reservation. The details of that story, I believe, came from Kraig Roberts. Looks like a great deal of fiction built on a small smattering of truth. After all, Kochera did actually exist. :roll:

Makes one wonder if there is enough truth in the Jacob Waltz/LDM legend to make a good stand alone story, or if all of this made up crap is really needed to keep it afloat.

Once again, Good Work!

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by novice »

Joe,

Kochera, born on the San Carlos Reservation

I don’t believe that was Kraig’s story but simply a story that he took from Zig-Zag Canyon. If you get a chance reread Chapter 27 beginning on page 202. (Kochera 1942)

You will see that Kraig's post follows this story very closely.

If this was the story that John Kochera told Ron Feldman, there may be a bigger problem than first believed. But I have never seen where Ron has flatly stated that this is what he was told by Kochera.

We have to allow some poetic license for an author creating a historical fiction book! :)

I'm sure no one would EVER read a book I wrote. It would certainly be dry!

Garry
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Re: The John B. Kochera Story Revisited

Post by Cubfan64 »

novice wrote:Joe,

Kochera, born on the San Carlos Reservation

I don’t believe that was Kraig’s story but simply a story that he took from Zig-Zag Canyon. If you get a chance reread Chapter 27 beginning on page 202. (Kochera 1942)

You will see that Kraig's post follows this story very closely.

If this was the story that John Kochera told Ron Feldman, there may be a bigger problem than first believed. But I have never seen where Ron has flatly stated that this is what he was told by Kochera.

We have to allow some poetic license for an author creating a historical fiction book! :)

I'm sure no one would EVER read a book I wrote. It would certainly be dry!

Garry
Doesn't John Kochera imply he has indian heritage in his letter to Crazy Jake?
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