Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

"This one is pretty much the same....but more than four years old."

I do appreciate your taking the time to inform me and everyone else that I posted, pretty much, the same thing four years ago. Does my post have some kind of special meaning for you, or are you just having a slow/bad day?

Just so you can put your mind at ease, there are many people posting today who have never seen that particular information. I felt it was still relevant and, at least, managed to shoehorn it into the proper topic.

That being said, I am getting older and probably somewhat senile. If you want the job, maybe I could run my future posts by you first, just in case I might post something that would embarrass me.

The Apache don't say thank you, but say "I understand" instead. That seems appropriate here, so.....I understand. On the other hand, I do appreciate your keeping track of every post I have ever made and trying to keep things orderly.

Take care,

Joe
_______________________________________________________

Yes, this is what I just posted on TreasureNet. Want to make sure everyone has the chance to read it. I don't post on DesertUSA, so feel free to copy and paste everything there.

Joe
Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
Apparently you do misunderstand.I agree that quoting comments and re-posting older information is beneficial to those who may be new to the topic.I posted the original in order to counter the claim by BB that you were in the habit of deleting your posts,which I find somewhat ironic.I do not save your posts for posterity since they are readily available by keyword search,as are all posts that have not been deleted,as bowman's are so frequently.I do find the your change of heart (pun intended) towards Aurum a bit odd,but "odd" is the nature of this site(Treasure Net) and so I did not bother to mention it in this post.

Regards:Wayne
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

"I do find the your change of heart (pun intended) towards Aurum a bit odd,but "odd" is the nature of this site(Treasure Net) and so I did not bother to mention it in this post."

Just to be clear, I still respect Matthew's historical knowledge on Arizona, the Superstition Mountains and his grasp on the Apache lifestyle and past society. To continue your "pun", it's just that my heart is no longer in it. Despite that, he would be welcome in our home anytime.

There are times in our lives when circumstances create traps that we can't see a clear path out of. When that turns into decades, I have no doubt that extracting yourself becomes impossible.

Few people will ever understand what I am talking about here. I would welcome a call or email from my old friend.

Take care,

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by zentull »

Having actually seen the maps up as close as I could of hoped to and with a few hundred pictures at every angle possible to review, I got more questions concerning their authenticity than ever before.

When I was looking to back up a certain story about a large boulder that the Apaches had supposedly pounded out mule hides on I figured to search, get a sample and back up evidence of the story. Doesn't mean the story is 100% authentic, just that it has a more approachable possibility of being true.

The heart in the picture in Glovers book is already bonded. The staining from that bonding is easily visible and correlates with the heart in its current condition for the most part(Its a pretty weathered picture). So we have a heart that was seemingly bonded and cleaned and within a short time photographed on the trucks bumper.

What is the analysis on the bonding agent? It won't mean the stones are totally authentic, but can prove whether they aren't. Whatever bonds the heart together isn't crucial in any way in my opinion, it just is a possible way to date the heart, which I partially agree with Randy is the most likely component that is possibly authentic.

As for the rest, the engraving looks modern tooled in every aspect. I was actually surprised at a number of things that have never been brought up concerning them.

1) The engraving tapers off rather than is squared as the tool was lifted during the engraving
2) You can see where they over shot some areas and messed up as they tooled the stones and some of the light etching/marks are visible where the carving was not done.
3) I was so tempted to spit and smear where I saw the heart with arrow(I have a funny feeling theres lead there)
4) While I don't hold to much to Joe's DeGrazia/Aylor theory, I have a strong feeling about stuff that I have shown Randy that makes me believe it was done as a bit of a joke. There are some places that match stuff in an uncanny way that I believe were natural that were put on the maps for whatever reason. I also believe that a few folks know a bit about this, but its all good for the history and tourist trade so no need to go that route.

Of course what do I know! I should leave this sort of thing to the Stone Map gurus, but after running across this stuff so much in the archives over the years it's hard to believe in pretty much any map, much less stone ones.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

Zen,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the recent photo shoot of the Stone Maps. What little I had read seemed to indicate a real love fest of Stone Maps aficionados.

A little “Fair and Balanced” reporting?

I do have a couple of questions.

There are “two” Waynes in this thread? You are not posting as Somehiker also?

Paul made a post in which he said someone told him that start drill marks were obvious. Were you his source or was that someone else?

I do have some questions about the Peck file but I haven’t had time to get my thoughts in order. Rain Check?

Garry
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by zentull »

Two different guys.......

Raincheck is fine with me.

I don't think of it as fair and balanced, just my approach is different. I look at it as what would validate it and how to go about it. Kind of like in the whole Julia Thomas thing: its not where she is buried but where she is actually buried. I love the mythology surrounding the mountains regardless. Don't think I will ever qualify as a stone map enthusiast, but I try to keep up a good overview.

May have been me mentioning it to Paul when we were on the phone, Mike I believe thought it was meant to be part of the map though. Hopefully they will be at the museum still this fall and you can take it all in and look at them yourself.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Cubfan64 »

Hi Garry - I think it may have been Wayne (Zentull) who mentioned it to me as he said on the phone, although I may be mistaken as I spoke with a few different people about the stones, so don't quote me on that. I do know it was SOMEONE who had actually seen them in person though. I know I brought that idea up once on a forum as well (TNet I think) in regards to how strange it seems to be that some folks can look at the maps in person and see obvious drill marks that appear to be mechanical, and someone else can look at the same stone and see nothing obvious.

The two Waynes are Wayne (Zentull) and Wayne (Somehiker). If they want to tell you their last names, I'll leave it up to them. I don't think you've met Somehiker as I believe he was only at 1 Rendezvous a couple years ago.

Are you and your wife gonna be at the Rendezvous again this year Garry?
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Peralta Stone Maps

Post by Roger »

Paul,

It may have been me that talked about seeing the Stone Maps in person and I have posted that story on this forum in the past. Here is what I posted on this subject on 9/17/2006:

"I also saw the Stone Maps on display in the Mesa Southwest Museum in the early 1990's that were in a glass display case. After talking with the Museum staff, I learned that the ones on display were replica's and the real stones were kept in a locked vault in the back of the Museum. I inquired if I could see the real ones and they said yes, but I would have to pay $15/hr for an observer (read college student) to watch me all the time. I did this and took about 2 hrs looking at the stones in the back room on a bench. I made several etchings or rubbings of areas of the stones that I wanted to have more detail on. I also found in this examination that the words "Santa Fe" were scribed into the left hand side (not top, but the edge) of the Horse Stone and that the two "river" lines actually ran around the edge of the stone onto the side. "Santa Fe" was written between these two lines on the left side of the stone. It is obvious that if the two rivers on the Horse Stone are related to the Superstitions, then Santa Fe has to be on the right of these two rivers - not the left. However, since the word lays between the two rivers and the word Rio is shown, one has to reverse the location of "Santa Fe" in mirror fashion which puts it on the correct side. "

These were the original stone maps that I got to examine before they were moved to the Arizona Mineral & Mining Museum in Phoenix. I used a magnifying glass (2X, 4X, and 6X) to examine the stones and saw no evidence of tooling marks or drill starter holes at the beginning of each letter on the stones. The stone with "DON" on it was the most worn on that side and the Horse stone also showed signs of wear. The Heart had been cracked in two along a natural fault in the stone and later glued back. I am certainly not trained in archaeology, but from a novice's eye - - these did not look like forgeries.

In a phone discussion about the Stone Maps with Chuck Kenworthy, he acknowledged that he had also seen the "Santa Fe" marking on the stones so he must have worked with the originals that he photographed. I have placed his photo's of the Stone Maps in the Members Archive section if you want to see them.

There have been a number of reproductions made on the Stone Maps - some back in the 1970's and another group in 2002 or so. I don't know if they are all from the same set of molds, but suspect they were.

My 2 cents on the subject.

Roger


I don't specifically remember any drill marks on the map stones. The lines were very cleanly cut and smooth in their bottoms and sides. I think a lot of people discard the maps as fakes due to the high level of workmanship on the map stones in particular and to some degree on the horse and priest sides. What I use for a reference point in time and place is the Mission San Xavier del Blac in Tucson, AZ. This mission church was first established by Father Eusebio Kino in 1692 and mission construction was done from 1783 to 1792. The stone mason work done on the facade of this mission church and its interior are extremely well done and they could of had only the simplest of tools at that time for construction. Here's the web site with a short video of the church:

http://www.tucsonattractions.com/Herita ... video.html

I firmly believe that the Peralta's and the people at their hacienda in Sonora were quite capable of making the stone maps to the quality level we see. I also suspect that the stones were made in the late 1700's and no later than 1817 by very early Mexican miners and that they were encoded using the set of map making rules/codes required by the Spanish Government in Spain.

I have never spent much time trying to totally decipher the stone maps, but think I could get through the first several steps of it plus a few items beyond that. To drop the heart stone in its cavity and then try to fit the trail to the actual lay of the land is the "sucker play" intended by the original sculpturers to keep unwanted searchers off the real trail.

Suspect this topic will never be short of strong ideas and personal solutions!

Good hunting!!

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Roger,

"I firmly believe that the Peralta's and the people at their hacienda in Sonora were quite capable of making the stone maps to the quality level we see. I also suspect that the stones were made in the late 1700's and no later than 1817 by very early Mexican miners and that they were encoded using the set of map making rules/codes required by the Spanish Government in Spain."

Are you still relying on Chuck Kenworthy's word concerning the Kings "rules/codes" or have you found other evidence or sources that corroborate the existence of such a code?

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by zentull »

Roger,

Other than the "Don" side, how weathered and worn did the maps appear to you?
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Roger »

Wayne,

The two map sides of the Stone Maps did not appear to have any appreciable wear. I'm sure that some of the photographs taken by some of the forum members recently have enough resolution to answer that question - assuming they are the same stones I saw back in the early 1990"s at the Mesa Museum. I did not take photographs at the time - just examined the stones under a magnifying glass and took some rubbings of certain areas I was interested in. Suspect they won't let you do that today! ha

Roger
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Roger »

Joe,

I have not done any more research/analysis on the Stone Maps for a number of years. Decided the code was too complex and without some more knowledge/info than what was available, I would never get to the end point. So in answer to your question, I do not have any new information to share. I do think Kenworthy did obtain by whatever means the King's Codes that he published in his book, Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs (1991) from the Spanish Archives.

I agree 100% with you that Kenworthy was a promoter/hustler to a degree and undoubtedly added spice to his stories to make them more believable. Him telling me that Eugene Lyons found the King's Codes in Seville, Spain, and then sent them to him is a prime case in point. This is obviously a flat LIE based on your phone conversation with Eugene Lyons a year ago which you pointed out very succinctly at the last Rendezvous after you requested me to give a brief talk on my involvement with Kenworthy.

The question then becomes - Since Kenworthy gave this lie to me, do I throw the man and anything he wrote/said out??? Here is what I based my decision on:

1. The information on the stones ties closely with the rules in Kenworthy's book and from what I got out of Chuck in a phone call, a meeting, and the video Greg Davis took of him presenting to the Superstition Mtn Treasure Hunters Club. I can make my way through a few areas of the decoding on the Stone Maps using this information, but then hit a roadblock on where to go next. The one thing that is most convincing is that the instructions on one area of the stones is repeated EXACTLY on another area but with a completely different decoding required. For this linkage to exist, someone had to be using a set of rules to make the maps and the Priest/Horse stone. My opinion on this is based on applying the codes and producing results -- not some blind trust in Kenworthy. Net-Net: The codes work! At least as far as I can get with them.

2. When I was researching in Greg Davis' collection last month, I ran across a 10 page article in Treasure Found magazine written by Bob Grant in the late 1970's based on an interview with Chuck titled "An Interview With Charles A. Kenworthy -- Professional Treasure Hunter". It can be concluded from this article that Kenworthy was more that a flash in the pan treasure hunter - he made a business out of it for 20 years and he did find treasure. I had known some of this detail on Chuck in the 1990's based on internet searches on him.

I am going to scan the article and send it to you. If anyone else wants a copy, please PM your email address and I'll get it to you.

That's about the extent of my Stone Map activities. I do think they are authentic, were probably made in the late 18th or early 19th century, and were made following a set of rules defined by the Spanish Government.

It's OK for us to not agree on these points - my conclusions are opinion only based on what I learned about decoding the Stone Maps. Could be completely wrong and certainly don't have any vested interest in the outcome one way or the other. I can't find the end point based on what I know at this point.

Looking forward to seeing you and Carolyn at the Rendezvous - salad's on me again this year!!

Take care,

Roger
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

All,

First, to answer the question regarding testing of the bonding agent on the heart insert;Not gonna happen. As of my last conversation with Phil Rhinehart, he said that the consensus of the Museum Board was that it was not the place of the Museum to prove or disprove the authenticity of the stones. Just to display them. When the board actually meets next month, that may change but I doubt it.

I was also at the Stone Map Picfest. Greg was kind enough to let me use my digital microscope on some of the stones. As I pointed out at the time, the only evident drill dimple marks were in a couple of the small holes on the trail maps. I could find none in any of the longer grooves. I also found sanding marks on the stones. The experts at Desert Archaeology Inc said that those two things were indicative of modern machining (in the Arizona Highways Article). That left me with two questions:

1. How are electric drill dimples different from hand drill dimples?

2. How does machine sanding look different from hand sanding (either by rubbing two fairly flat stones together or by adding some fine sand between the stones)?

I corresponded with Dr. Jenny Adams at DAI, and while she was very polite and basically restated what was in the Arizona Highways Article. She never attempted to even address those questions. I let it lay because I assumed it meant there was no way to tell, and she didn't want to admit it, so I didn't push the point. You also have to remember that their examination of the stones was a quick pro bono affair.

One of the reasons I wanted to use the digital microscope was to see if I could find any tiny pieces of metal that could be run through a mass spectrometer to try and date the alloy. I could fine none.

Wayne and I differ somewhat on what we thought of seeing the same thing. HAHAHA The impression I got of the grooves in the stones was that they were scratched into the surface. Something like drawing a pattern on the stone, then using a knife blade or scratch awl to engrave the pattern. The ONLY thing that looked chiseled was the big cross on the back of a trail stone. To me, that explained where the engraving tool jumped the groove. I use a dremel tool a lot. When a dremel jumps a groove, it shoots off at a right angle from that groove. These marks did not do that. When I get a chance, I will post some pics of what I saw.

Let me now address the lack of wear on the trail maps. In reading through the documents Garry posted on the stones, I found one statement by a friend of Travis Tumlinson's very interesting. He stated that the trail maps were buried in an upright position, map face to map face. That explains their condition as opposed to the DON Side.

For my part, I didn't find anything that would make anyone jump the fence from one side to the other regarding whether they were authentic or not. That was my main reason for driving from Los Angeles.

From the research I have done, I firmly believe that Travis Tumlinson did not fake nor have the stones faked. He firmly believed them to be authentic treasure maps. That means that IF they were hoaxed, it would have to have been done sometime prior to 1949. That still puts Joe's Ted DeGrazia Theory in the realm of being possible. I don't think it is correct, but without any concrete evidence to the contrary, I have to admit the possibility.

I believe the Stone Maps are authentic, but I can't say with any amount of certainty whether they were made by the Peraltas or the Jesuits. My guess is Jesuit for reasons that I am still working on.

Best-Mike
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

oh, one other thing that Garry's Documents answered for me was regarding the two different types of engraving. As long as I can remember, I have always seen people writing that it looked as though some of the engraving was added at a later date than the original.

Since the existence of the stones was pretty much a secret from 1949 until about 1964 (with the publication of the Life Magazine Article on 12 June 1964). It had always been a thought of mine that either Tumlinson or Mitchell either sanded off or carved extra markings on the stones to mess up anybody that might later steal or get pictures of the stones.

In one of Garry's Documents, one of Tumlinson's friends stated that Travis Tumlinson told him that the 0's on the back of the Heart Insert were carved by himself for that very purpose. I would be willing to bet that there are more. Look carefully at the picture of the trail maps on the bumper of Tumlinson's car. While I can see something that MIGHT be part of the dagger, I can't say for certain that it is there. If Tumlinson is responsible for all the shallow/light grooves, it would explain a lot.

Best-Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

"I agree 100% with you that Kenworthy was a promoter/hustler to a degree and undoubtedly added spice to his stories to make them more believable. Him telling me that Eugene Lyons found the King's Codes in Seville, Spain, and then sent them to him is a prime case in point. This is obviously a flat LIE based on your phone conversation with Eugene Lyons a year ago which you pointed out very succinctly at the last Rendezvous after you requested me to give a brief talk on my involvement with Kenworthy."

I believe we had, at least two conversations about that phone call prior to the Rendezvous.

I may have been overly harsh on Kenworthy, it's just that I never believed in the King's Code. When you told the story of your conversation with Chuck, there was only one man left alive to confirm the facts. Both of us had tried to reach him, without success.

One day I decided to try something really technical, I called the operator and she gave me his phone number. :roll:

As I recall, Kenworthy was really a sunken ship treasure hunter. That was the one contact with Dr. Lyon that he had. On land treasure, I don't believe he had much of a following. My research is very superficial on the man, so I could be all wet...No pun intended. :)

As always, Carolyn and I look forward to seeing you again this year.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"First, to answer the question regarding testing of the bonding agent on the heart insert;Not gonna happen. As of my last conversation with Phil Rhinehart, he said that the consensus of the Museum Board was that it was not the place of the Museum to prove or disprove the authenticity of the stones. Just to display them. When the board actually meets next month, that may change but I doubt it."

I was also in touch with Phil regarding the testing of the glue. I had his story from Jim's first posting. In addition to that, I had a much better source for "It ain't gonna happen".
You may recall that I said that months ago. Nothing is going to change.

Looking forward to your pictures. You should make every effort to be free, and show up for the Rendezvous. Don't know how many more I will be able to make, and I would sure like to meet you there.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

Chuck Kenworthy was only involved in two seaborne treasure searches (Catalina and I think Jupiter Inlet, Florida).

By far the greatest majority of his treasure hunts were on land.

I have stated this before, but Dr. Lambert Dolphin was good friends with Kenworthy for many years and was involved with several of his treasure hunts. See, Dr. Dolphin is the father of modern Ground Penetrating Radar (he didn't invent it, but brought it its modern state of being). Chuck Kenworthy had the idea in the 1960s that he would involve the most eminent scientists, and put modern science to work in helping to find treasure. He went to SRI (Stanford Research Institute). Dr. Dolphin was the chief physicist at SRI for about 35 years.

Here is a link to a web book written by Dr Dolphin about many of SRI's exploits and its' personalities over the years (looks like the wild west of science). He tells something about Chuck Kenworthy that may give an idea of the man. Some people have questioned Kenworthy's wealth in the past, this and the Penthouse Magazine Article on the Catalina Island Adventure put that subject to rest.

http://ldolphin.org/rpl/ch5.html

If you wonder about the accuracy of the Spanish Codes, one thing stands out:

When he wrote about how mine owners were required to file three different maps to their miines:

1. Large Scale Map: from the hacienda to the area of the mountain range.

2. Medium Scale Map: from the outside of the range to the area of the canyon in which the mine is located.

3. Small Scale Map: this last one puts you on top of the mine. Usually this is the most encoded map of the set.

Now, grab your copy of Curt Gentry's "The Killer Mountains." Look at the three Ruth/Peralta Maps. Do the three of them resemble the three descriptions above? :wink:

Best-Mike
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

"First, to answer the question regarding testing of the bonding agent on the heart insert;Not gonna happen. As of my last conversation with Phil Rhinehart, he said that the consensus of the Museum Board was that it was not the place of the Museum to prove or disprove the authenticity of the stones. Just to display them. When the board actually meets next month, that may change but I doubt it."

I was also in touch with Phil regarding the testing of the glue. I had his story from Jim's first posting. In addition to that, I had a much better source for "It ain't gonna happen".
You may recall that I said that months ago. Nothing is going to change.

Looking forward to your pictures. You should make every effort to be free, and show up for the Rendezvous. Don't know how many more I will be able to make, and I would sure like to meet you there.

Take care,

Joe
HAHAHA You Bum,

Why weren't you at Stonepicfest2010?

I am doing my absolute best to get away that weekend. I plan on being there this year.

Best-Mike
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

One of the items I have had to rethink in light of the Peck material is the ownership of the maps.

From the MOEL litigation documents, I had concluded that Clarence Mitchell had purchased the Stone Maps from Alleen Tumlinson using money from MOEL and the maps were always the property of the corporation.

Exhibit #6 – In a letter (1963) to Mel Brower, Grace Mitchell implies that the Stone Maps are the corporation’s one tangible asset.

Exhibit #3 – Eberstein included the article in Life Magazine as one of the pieces of evidence in the case. Why was that article included if MOEL was not involved with the maps?

Exhibit #2 – Eberstein prepared a spread sheet and there were two entries, for $1,000 each from Life Magazine, shown being deposited to the MOEL account. If Clarence was the owner of the Stone Maps, why would he be depositing those monies into MOEL’s account?

BUT, according to the Prospecting Agreement of March 8, 1965 we have a paragraph which states: WHEREAS MOEL has title and right to possession to all the Peralta stone treasure and mine maps which rights were transferred to them by C. O. Mitchell and Grace Mitchell, his wife. This indicates that the Mitchell’s did indeed have title to the Stone Maps and it was necessary for them to transfer the title and right of possession to MOEL.

We have a further clarification of this transfer of the maps to MOEL in Elbert Loves‘s letter to Richard Peck on April 16, 1965.

The following is an excerpt; Love was telling this story to Travis’s Uncle Bob Tumlinson.

“I said that I and some of my friends had become involved with Mitchell, having hired him to locate the treasure which he represented he could do. We soon learned however that instead of hunting for the treasure he wrote without our consent and sold it, pocketing the proceeds. In our settlement with him, I obtained the maps in behalf of my friends and Mitchell kept the rights to his book.”

I’m still wrestling with this since it is obvious that MOEL and the maps were intertwined early on. If the Mitchells owned the maps privately, why would they become such a big part of MOEL?

My sense was that Clarence was drawing money from the MOEL account to conduct his searches and live. $58,000 went some place and Clarence wasn’t financially able to conduct the search pro bono. I believe the money raised by the sale of MOEL shares was basically a grub stake for the Mitchell’s to allow them to search for whatever.

Eberstein only dealt with the sale of stock and didn’t get involved in how MOEL was spending their capital. I suspect books were kept that documented how the $58,000 was spent and if this money was used to purchase the stones it would show up there but the existence of those books would seem to be a long shot.

Garry
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Garry,

Its not in front of me, but in Eberstein's Investigation, he stated that the sale of stock was MOEL's only source of income.

Tie that in with Brower's Letter to Peck in which he describes how single-minded Mitchell was regarding searching for the treasure, would lead one to think that Mitchell had his personal theories about decoding the stone maps. He wouldn't listen to anybody else's ideas, and he basically forsook any other projects MOEL was working on. Brower, in his letter to Peck, said that some of the other MOEL Principles were working on things for the company, and not to judge Mitchell too harshly.

It just looks like Clarence Mitchell had succumbed to a serious obsession with the Stone Maps.

Best-Mike
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

Mike,

I tend to agree that Mitchell did believe the stone maps were legitimate and I think he had invested a lot of time in them, hence his hostility toward the Johnny-Come-Lately, Peck.

I also think Mitchell may have killed the goose that “might” have laid a golden egg!

I suspect much of the modern day story has been built on a foundation of sand.

I have 101 questions regarding the history and I’m sure some can be answered. I think we can already address a lot of the chafe as the picture begins to come into focus. But it would still be nice to know a lot more answers.

When did Mitchell come to Arizona?

When did Mitchell obtain the stones?

Why did Mitchell purchase the stones?

Was Mitchell a friend of Travis Tumlinson, which has been alleged?

How long had Mitchell known about the stones existence before purchasing them?

What was Mitchell doing in the period between 1960 and when he obtained the stones?
Was he already searching for the Peralta Treasure?

Did Mitchell use the stones as a selling point to obtain additional investors after he obtained them?

ETC.

Garry
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Garry,

Good questions all. The documents you shared and others point to a story not necessarily like the one commonly told.

The only questions of yours that I believe I can answer with some degree of certainty are: When and Why did Mitchell obtain the Stone Maps?

I am almost certain that he did not get them before Tumlinson's death. THAT part of the story (as told) I believe. Sometime in 1961. The WHY is simple. He knew about them before hand, and believed in their authenticity.

Now, we have the next questions:

How long had Mitchell known about the stones existence before purchasing them?

That is a tough one! While there is no corroborative evidence that shows Mitchell knew anything about the stones, it looks to me like the stones did play a part in the formation of MOEL. Although, that is only a guess. The written evidence about the formation of the Corporation suggests that it had more to do with this mysterious device which was able to detect precious metals and minerals of all types (something akin to modern LRLs "Long Range Locators" or MFDs "Molecular Frequency Discriminators").


Did Mitchell use the stones as a selling point to obtain additional investors after he obtained them?

I believe he did. That is why IMO he transferred ownership of the stones to MOEL at some point. That is why we have that whole contract fiasco with Peck. It shows quite clearly that the ONLY thing Peck was getting from MOEL/Mitchell were pics of the stones.

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry and Mike,

I'm also interested in Mitchell's history and connections, but I'm more interested in who Tumlinson knew in Apache Junction and where those connections might lead.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Garry and Mike,

I'm also interested in Mitchell's history and connections, but I'm more interested in who Tumlinson knew in Apache Junction and where those connections might lead.

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

The only person I have been able to find that TT knew in AJ was Charlie Miller. We only get that information second hand from Al Reser, who told the story of TT going to Miller's House after finding the stones, and Miller seeing the little roots sticking out of the grooves.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut .......... since TT went to AJ approximately a dozen times trying to work out the stones from 1949 until about 1956 or so, we must assume that he made some friends there.

I think it is possible that is where he met Mitchell. Since Mitchell and MOEL used AJ P.O. Boxes on the Articles of Incorporation in 1960, they may have been in AJ before that using the mysterious detector.

Best-Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I never met Charlie Miller or Al Reser, but I know people who knew Al. They probably knew Charlie Miller as well, but I have never asked what kind of man he was.

Once again, too many folks come out of the woodwork after a story gets some notoriety to be able to tell who was or wasn't directly involved. I will look into Miller and post the results here.

Lots of people make false claims in treasure hunting, for a myriad of reasons. Getting a reputation as being THE MAN holds a lot of attraction for, almost, anyone. Once that gets ahold of you, there's no telling what someone will say or do to maintain that position.

Did Charlie Miller succumb to that kind of noteriety?......I have no idea, but it's more than possible. I have never seen anything that could be construed as a "smoking gun" that puts him there when the Stone Maps were first found, or said to have been found.

Al's word, from what I have heard, should be good enough for anyone, but how reliable was Charlie Miller? IMHO, these stories are only as good as the original source.

Take care,

Joe
Post Reply