Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:I agree with Paul that I doubt I am the first person to submit a FOIA Request regarding the Stone Maps.

So, while waiting for the FBI to finish with my request, I contacted the FBI Lab in DC directly. After a couple of days going through the loopty-loop, I was finally put in touch with the FBI Historian. He told me that if the FBI tested the stones as a favor for a city or state attorney's office, it is entirely possible that a FOIA Search will turn up nothing.

Unless the examination was in conjunction with a criminal proceeding, it may be VERY difficult to find a lab report. He said that without a case number, it is hard, but he will do what he can to find anything they may have.

Mike
Mike,

If that's the case, it sounds like contacting the the State Attorney's office is the next step in the process. From the sound of that, It might have been the best place to start.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

I'll let that go a bit until I hear back from one or the other of my baited hooks. My guess is I should hear back from FOIA very soon though.

Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"Unless the examination was in conjunction with a criminal proceeding, it may be VERY difficult to find a lab report. He said that without a case number, it is hard, but he will do what he can to find anything they may have."

I think we can safely assume there was no "criminal proceeding" against MOEL. On the other hand, an investigation could have been ongoing. Could the Stone Maps have been seized by authorities without a paper trail being generated? Believe you would have needed a court order and you would need probable cause to get that.

There would have needed to be some kind of allegation by someone to get such and investigation going. It all would have left an extensive paper trail. Would they still have it, or would it have been destroyed after a certain amount of time.

In the end, if the procedure that was followed to test the stones is not available, none of it matters. It all comes back to a spoken opinion with no verifiable data to support it. Sounds like a monumental cluster-boink, and waste of time.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

From everything I have found so far, the second legal proceeding having anything to do with MOEL (that I can find) was the Cochranes (Boyd and Ruth) suing Mitchell, Kriewald, and MOEL for ownership of the stones.

This part is conjecture;

But, if ownership in question came before a court, the judge would have certainly asked about how the defendant came to own the stones in the first place. Then the whole story about Tumlinson finding the stones would have been brought up. If I were an Arizona Judge, and I heard that story, I would wonder if the stones would fall under the Az Antiquities Act. At the time (I believe it is true now as well), if an object found was over 100 years old, and was of archaeological importance, ownership would have reverted to the state of Arizona. If the Stone Maps were deemed authentic and "at least 100 years old", they would have belonged to the State of Arizona.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that the FBI Agent Bob spoke to used the time frame of "at least 100 years old" and the Antiquities Act states 100 years old? Then, all of a sudden, MOEL donates the stones to the Foundation/Museum?

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

The people at the museum believe the stones are fake. If the FBI authenticated them, they would probably have another opinion. At the least, they would have them examined by ASU.

Just my opinion.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Roger »

Mike,

Another item I found in Greg Davis' Richard Peck Collection in the MOEL file was a letter dated 3/6/1965 from S. Earl Pugh, Jr. to Hale C. Tongnoni who was a lawyer retained by Richard Peck. It appears that Pugh was an attorney in Tongoni's firm. Part of this letter was a summary of Arizona law as to it relating to the Stone Maps and Treasure Trove in case Peck found a trove by using the Stone Maps. The AZ law was described on a legal page and here is the conclusion the attorney reached:

"I can find no cases indicating whether the Peralta stone maps or whatever may be within the cache come within the scope of this Statute".

This would mean that as of 1965, the attorney could not find any case law (court rulings) that would make the Stone Maps fall under the AZ A.R.S. 41-771 et seq statutes.

Garry at some point will be shrinking these legal documents down to letter size and putting them on the web for all to see. At that time, you can read the details from the lawyers.

Hope this helps.

Roger
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Why have ASU look at them? They already have the expert opinions the professionals at Desert Archaeology Inc.

But I guess we have a quandry here, don't we? We have an FBI Agent stating that the stones are least 100 years old (according to Bob), a forced donation of the stones by MOEL, and a museum that thinks they are frauds.

We also have Jane Dana, who, while not remembering all the details of what her late husband did with the stones, she does remember her husband having them. That, at least, tells us that part of the story is true. Now, for all we know, Steve Dana might have told Mitchell the stones were from Zeta Reticuli 5 and gave directions to a time portal. All we have to go by is the story from Mitchell.
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Roger wrote:Mike,

Another item I found in Greg Davis' Richard Peck Collection in the MOEL file was a letter dated 3/6/1965 from S. Earl Pugh, Jr. to Hale C. Tongnoni who was a lawyer retained by Richard Peck. It appears that Pugh was an attorney in Tongoni's firm. Part of this letter was a summary of Arizona law as to it relating to the Stone Maps and Treasure Trove in case Peck found a trove by using the Stone Maps. The AZ law was described on a legal page and here is the conclusion the attorney reached:

"I can find no cases indicating whether the Peralta stone maps or whatever may be within the cache come within the scope of this Statute".

This would mean that as of 1965, the attorney could not find any case law (court rulings) that would make the Stone Maps fall under the AZ A.R.S. 41-771 et seq statutes.

Garry at some point will be shrinking these legal documents down to letter size and putting them on the web for all to see. At that time, you can read the details from the lawyers.

Hope this helps.

Roger
Hey Roger,

You sure you got that statute right? AZ ARS 41-771 is for Personnel Exemptions. If the search had to do with Treasure Trove, it would not necessarily fall under AZ Antiquities Act.

Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

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Roger
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Roger »

Mike,

I checked the ARS number in the Peck's lawyers document and verified it was ARS 41-771. I dug around the web a little and found out that as usual for government, Arizona has completely renumbered the state statutes and the complete list can be found at:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRev ... p?Title=41

The section that Earl Pugh referenced is now 41-841 Archaeological and vertebrate paleontological discoveries which can be found at:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocu ... ocType=ARS

A good portion of Pugh's quote of the statute is verbatim the same as today, but some is different - probably changed over the years since 1965.

FYI

Roger
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Why have ASU look at them? They already have the expert opinions the professionals at Desert Archaeology Inc.

But I guess we have a quandry here, don't we? We have an FBI Agent stating that the stones are least 100 years old (according to Bob), a forced donation of the stones by MOEL, and a museum that thinks they are frauds.

We also have Jane Dana, who, while not remembering all the details of what her late husband did with the stones, she does remember her husband having them. That, at least, tells us that part of the story is true. Now, for all we know, Steve Dana might have told Mitchell the stones were from Zeta Reticuli 5 and gave directions to a time portal. All we have to go by is the story from Mitchell.
Best-Mike
Mike,

As soon as I, or anyone else, has the kind of credentials that the folks at Desert Archaeology, Inc. have, and are willing to put there names to their opinions, I may change my opinion.

They were very limited in the amount of time that they were allowed to examine the stones. That, by the time constraints, limited any tests that might have been possible under different circumstances.

They were not asked for opinions that would be critiqued by their peers, but would be printed in a, basically, Arizona travel magazine. In other words, it was for entertainment rather than scientific study. I appreciate your concerns for their professional abilities, based on this kind of "fluff" work, but will wait for you to publish your own credentials in this line of work, before I discard their opinions....for yours.

One other thing.......They had no axe to grind with the stones, you do.

Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it is what it is.

My personal opinion is that the only way those stones can be dated, is exactly the way that Desert Archaeology did it. For experts in the field, I should think that could be done very quickly. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with providing the stones to ASU, just to see what they can come up with. I certainly have no fear that they will come up with an opinion that negates my own, or anyone else's for that matter.

My guess is that it has already been done, and the results were unpublished. Beyond that, the folks at the museum probably could make a pretty good judgement on their authenticity.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"a forced donation of the stones by MOEL, and a museum that thinks they are frauds."

I meant to ask......Where do we have documentation that the donation was forced? Was there a court order?

Thanks,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

As I have posted this information several times already, I will do it again here.

This is a quote from an email correspondence between myself and Ray Grant ( a curator at the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum):
We have a single sheet of paper that says the stones were donated in 1969 by a Boyd Cochrane for Moel Inc.
The story, not written, was that the court ordered the company that was using the stones (Moel?) to raise money to donate them to a non-profit organization and that was how we got them.
Since nobody is alive today that had anything to do with the Stone Maps and their donation, we can only go by word of mouth at the museum.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Another thing I can tell you about the AM&MM and their feelings that the Stone Maps are not authentic is that before the DAI Exam, they just thought them fakes due to a lack of anything concrete that linked them to the Superstitions. The DAI Exam is pretty much the one thing that sealed the deal so to speak.

When I mentioned the Corbin/FBI Thing, he wrote me he had never heard the story. I am waiting for his reply. It's like if you watch MSNBC only, you will get a heavily skewed impression of current events. Same as if you only watch Fox. HAHAHA

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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"The story, not written, was that the court ordered the company that was using the stones (Moel?) to raise money to donate them to a non-profit organization and that was how we got them."

Is the court dead as well? Where is the court order? The FBI Agent did not take the stones to Washington without signing for them. When he brought them back, someone else signed for them. When the officials in Phoenix took possession of the stones, someone signed for them. When they returned them to Moel, someone there signed for them.

In between all this signing, reports were being generated. That's how the system works.
Having been in the Army, I imagine you are well aware of all that.

Let's just find just one document that shows that the stones left the physical control of MOEL at any time before they were donated to the museum. No "story", just a single document.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

"The story, not written, was that the court ordered the company that was using the stones (Moel?) to raise money to donate them to a non-profit organization and that was how we got them."

Is the court dead as well? Where is the court order? The FBI Agent did not take the stones to Washington without signing for them. When he brought them back, someone else signed for them. When the officials in Phoenix took possession of the stones, someone signed for them. When they returned them to Moel, someone there signed for them.

In between all this signing, reports were being generated. That's how the system works.
Having been in the Army, I imagine you are well aware of all that.

Let's just find just one document that shows that the stones left the physical control of MOEL at any time before they were donated to the museum. No "story", just a single document.

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

Just to keep things straight, I was in both the Navy AND the Army. HAHAHA

Maybe you missed my post about speaking to the FBI Historian in Washington DC today?

I will see what he comes up with, and what my FOIA Request generates.

Mike
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Arizona Treasure Trove Law (1965)

Post by novice »

I have kind of rushed to upload a copy of the results of the investigation of MOEL that Peck initiated and the Treasure Trove Laws of Arizona in 1965. This was to support Roger’s previous post. I managed to get almost everything on the page included by positioning the sheet on the scanner bed and by cutting off the blank portions of the top and bottom of the each 8 1/2/x 14 sheet.

I hope a couple of you guys will spend some time reviewing the information. It probably paints the best overall picture we have of MOEL in this time frame. Peck was to sign an Agreement with MOEL shortly after receiving this report. I hope to post that agreement in the next few days.

The Treasure Trove Law analysis was appended to this report.

These two pdf files can be found under the Peralta Stones and the Richard Peck Story.

Sorry for any errors,

Garry
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

The way the report reads to me is that Peck was trying to find what specific obligations Peck Ent had towards MOEL, and what loopholes there were.

I especially like the section where the report says that since MOEL was not legally operating in Arizona, that MOEL could not enforce anything against Peck, but Peck could enforce the agreement against MOEL.

Looks like a good businessman getting all his I's dotted and his T's crossed before entering into a legal contract.

Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I believe you have changed what was written.....slightly:

"It appears to me that the company has never qualified to do business in Arizona....."

"I am of the opinion that it could not be inforced as against Peck Enterprises, Inc. if it desired to do so."

"....that it probably could be inforced by Peck Enterprises, Inc."

While I do agree with your conclusions, I still see a great deal of wriggle-room in his statements.

In any case, Mr. Pugh's memorandum sheds a great deal of light on what was going on back then.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

The only reason it is slightly different is because the memo was written by an attorney. Same as when I (as a car salesman) write a letter or email to a customer. I have to add all the possible disclaimers so I am not legally bound by something I didn't specifically say. I just took the gist of the memo.

..............and if you read it carefully, it looks very much like there MAY be a thought on the Peck side as to how he could bone MOEL out of a cache if one was found.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Somehow, I don't think MOEL/Mitchell was in any way concerned with someone finding a cache with the Stone Maps. The only thing they were worried about, was how much money they could get from Peck.

Take care,

Joe
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MOEL - Peck Agreements

Post by Roger »

Joe,

There was no money exchange between Peck and MOEL except it appears that Peck believed MOEL owed him money for their share of the expenses in searching based on the Stone Maps. There were at least two written agreements made between MOEL and Peck - the first dated 7/26/1964 and the second dated 3/8/1965. I suspect both were drafted/written by Peck. The MOLE file in the Peck Collection in Greg Davis' materials has a signed copy of the first agreement and a draft of the second one. The unsigned 2nd agreement has the date 3/8/1965 in it and it may well be the exact agreement signed by both parties. Both agreements covered a cache and a mine. This is shown in the fourth paragraph of the first agreement as follows:

"The party of the first part and the party of the second part hereby agree that they shall share equally in the finding of any caches and shall share equally in any mining operations as a result of the information obtained from the Peralta Maps."

The second draft agreement was probably written by Peck's lawyer and contains a Section 4. Division of Proceeds with a sub section (a) Cache or Treasure and sub section (b) Mines. These are rather long and will not be give here. They can be examined when Garry gets them reduced from legal to letter sized and on his web page.

It is very interesting that in the second agreement the header material under WITHNESSETH has the following four paragraphs in it:

"WHEREAS, Moel has title and right to possession to all the Peralta stone treasure and mine maps which rights were transferred to them by C.O. Mitchell and Grace Mitchell, his wife"

"WHEREAS, Mole is a Nevada corporation which intended to be licensed to do business in Arizona for purposed of pursuing the search for the Peralta treasure and mines pursuant to the stone maps, and"

"WHEREAS, such licensing to do business in Arizona by Moel was not completed and Moel is now completing that licensing, and"

"WHEREAS, said stockholders' committee met with the principals of Peck Enterprises, Inc. on March 6, 1965 for the purposes of determining the status of the Moel-Peck July 26, 1964 agreement, and "

This shows that MOEL was going to get it license to do business in Arizona - wonder if that was ever done. Also, Peck met with the "new" directors of MOEL and they must have presented to him that MOEL had legal title to the Stone Maps that was transferred to MOEL by Clarence Mitchell.

Joe, you will have to read all the materials when Garry gets them up. There is talk about a suspected 5th and even a 6th stone to go with the original 4 stones. I'm going to let this one lay until Garry is done.

Hope this answers a few questions on MOLE and Peck hunting caches and mines and about MOLE owning the Stone Maps.

Interesting reading to say the least. Glad Garry asked me to spend some time looking at the MOLE info in Peck's Collection.

Roger
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

Somehow, I don't think MOEL/Mitchell was in any way concerned with someone finding a cache with the Stone Maps. The only thing they were worried about, was how much money they could get from Peck.

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

I think you are mistaken in your assumption. I firmly believe that every owner (with the possible exception of the AM&MM) thought the Stone Maps were authentic treasure maps.

I have never seen anything written from anybody that would lead me to think differently.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

OOOOPS!

One more exception.......Bernice McGee. I don't believe she thought the stones were authentic towards the end.

Mike
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Richard Peck Biography

Post by novice »

I want to begin uploading the Richard Peck information to the LDM documents Site in a chronological sequence as opposed to being piece-meal.

I have added a biography of Richard Peck written by Greg Davis and published in the Superstition Mountain Journal. It certainly gives us a sense of who Richard was. I have also added two additional documents from July 1964.

One thing about Richard was that he didn’t let any grass grow under his feet. He was always forging ahead. The Letter and the Agreement of July 20 and July 26, 1964 attest to that. The implication is that it was the Stone Map Story in the June 12, 1964 issue of Life Magazine that brought Richard from Cincinnati to Apache Junction to search. A little over a month after the Life Magazine article, he is middle of things regarding the Stone Maps.

Garry
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