Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

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Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

In Dr. Glover’s book “The Golden Dream” he writes:
The four pieces of carved stone which comprise what are called the Stone Maps are for many, for some unknown reason, the most enigmatic and magnetic entities in southwestern lore. My interest in them has been and remains historical --- I have not been infected with “Stone Map-itis”. They were discovered comparatively recently, circa 1949, and yet their history has become clouded in mystery. I was curious as to how something found so recently, where the principals were known, could acquire so tangled a history in so short a time.”
It is a “tangled history” to be sure. The resolution of this history will only come in many small steps and even then some of the speculation will remain as fact.

I want to concentrate on the, 1960 to present, history of the stone maps. Clarence Mitchell was one of the individuals involved with the maps and I want to share Clarence and Grace’s Mitchells own words that show up in the Bernice McGee Collection. There are some 30 to 35 letters. Many are simply friendly exchanges about day to day events but there are also nuggets that begin to paint a clearer picture of some of the events. (These letters are posted on the LDM Documents site.)

There are numerous other documents on the LDM Documents site including the MOEL litigation that shed additional light on what was happening in that time period.

I will simply list some of the stories that have been passed on as fact by various individuals as an example of the confusion.

MOEL never owned the Stone Maps

The Maps were the personal property of Clarence Mitchell

The maps belong to the State of Arizona

They were given to Mason Coggins who headed up the Arizona Department of Minerals and Mining by Clarence Mitchell in 1969

Clarence Mitchell received a substantial Arizona State Tax credit because of his donation

MOEL ended up in bankruptcy court

The Flagg Foundation (Now the “Arizona Mineral and Mining Foundation”) received the maps because of a “Court Order”

The FBI Laboratory examined the maps and determined they were an antiquity

The Arizona Highway’s article pointing out the fallacies of the maps representing a genuine antiquity is full of errors and a professional embarrassment

The individuals who analyzed the stone maps for Arizona Highways did a good job but the Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum has two sets of maps. One set that was copied from the original set was made using modern day tools. They weren’t working with the original maps, hence their conclusions

The real maps were never given to the Foundation and they only have copies

The maps being publically displayed are not the original maps but are replicas

These are simply a “few” of the assertions but you get the idea of the “tangled history”!

Garry

PS - Paul, I hope others will also invest some time in analyzing the documents and then share some of their thoughts.
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Cubfan64 »

Garry,

I know that Mike McChesney (Gollum from various forums) has been researching the history of the Stone Maps as well. One of the things I want to try to do when I can find time is go through the facts you discovered and compare them to the ones Mike discovered. At this point I have no idea whether you each reached the same conclusions based on the same documents or whether there are discrepencies. Where (or if) there are differences, I want to try to figure out how it happened.

I have so many things on my plate - dutchman as well as personal - that I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to put all this together, but I hope to work on it soon. Really it's just a matter of compiling all Mike's forum documentation on the maps in one place and then comparing and contrasting.

It should be interesting.
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

Paul,

I would be interested in seeing any additional documents that Mike or anyone, for that matter, would be willing to share and I would love to post them on the LDM Documents Site for everyone. I would certainly credit the person supplying the research.

Garry
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

You posted and article concerning an FBI investigation into massive fraud concerning sale of stock in a gold mine (LDM) in the Superstitions. The article was from June of 1966. It concerned the Glenn Magill claim on Bluff Spring Mountain, although I believe Magill was no longer involved in the Corporation.

The permanent injunction against MOEL was late 1964. I would assume any investigations into MOEL would have been long over before 1966. I believe the FBI investigation was focused on Magill's ex-partners, who had nothing to do with the Stone Maps, which was also true of Magill.

I understand your premise, that the FBI might have been looking at all possible fraud concerning treasure/mines in the Superstitions, but feel the Stone Maps would have been outside that particular investigation.

I still don't believe that the FBI had anything, officially, to do with the Stone Maps. My guess is that a local agent gave an opinion on the stones, based on nothing more than a visual once-over. I would like to see some documentation that anyone, other that MOEL, ever had the stones for any reason in that time period.

Just my opinion, so it may or may not be of any value to your conclusions or opinions.

Very, very nice bit of work there. We are all indebted to you.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

As I looked further into your site, I saw that the total paid by Time Life for the story was $2000. I figured, just as you have, that there was little doubt that the Stone Maps had been placed into the MOEL inventory. It may be that stock shares were traded for the maps.

The evidence you have provided makes me suspicious that Mitchell was involved in the maps from day-1. Some kind of profit motive (likely) was the impetus all along. It may be that a fraudulent scheme to use the Stone Maps as a hook for potential investors was interrupted or canceled by the SEC, and later FBI scrutiny.

Having a story about the maps in Time Life would be a wonderful advertisement for such a scam. How much more legitimate can you get than Time Life? My guess is that they started the ball rolling in 1963. The SEC investigation started in 1964, Time Life in 1964 and the book was published in 1965.

I see the above as a well thought out plan gone bad. In the end, there was too much heat around them to turn the stones into a major money maker. They made what they could and faded away. I have no doubt that the maps were "legally" owned, in some manner, by MOEL. The evidence you provided for that is pretty strong, in my opinion.

From your documents, it's obvious that Magill made overtures to Mitchell and was rebuffed or ignored. That makes me doubt that the two were ever tied together by the FBI, but it's possible.

Mike and Beth have both requested the FBI files on the Stone Maps through the FOIA. If I were going to bet, it would be that they will draw a blank. Can't imagine they are the first to make that request. Since I didn't really believe the (FBI) story, it never seemed important.

That's just one man's opinion, and others may feel otherwise.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

Joe,

I would not dismiss a possible tie of the newspaper article to MOEL out of hand.

You are correct about the MOEL litigation enjoining the Mitchell’s and Kriewald from selling shares in the fall of 1964 being water under the bridge. That was strictly an SEC investigation and we see no indication of any FBI involvement. It was not a fraud investigation. Had Eberstein uncovered the existence of fraud, it would have been the FBI that would have followed up on that possibility and the case would have ended up in the Justice Department. An unanswered question for me is; Who filed the complaint with the SEC that initiated the investigation? I don't believe the SEC woke up one morning and decided to look into MOEL.

1. I believe, from the Mitchell letters, we see that the new officers of MOEL had taken possession of the Stone Maps from the Mitchell’s at least by the summer of 1965. (Probably a few months earlier.)

2. MOEL continued to be somewhat active until the stones were turned over to the Flagg Foundation in 1969.

3. The article, to which you refer, in June of 1966, has a headline; FBI Starts Sweeping Probe of Dutchman Mine “Frauds”. The use of the words Sweeping and Frauds (Plural) strongly indicates that the probe was not confined to the Glen Magill story.

4. Also, we have the passage in the article from the FBI; “Declining to name the groups involved.” We really don’t know who and how many other groups were involved in their investigation.

5. And lastly we have the words of Bob Corbin who was the County Attorney (Maricopa) from 1966 to 1969 and he was at the U. S. Attorney’s offices sometime in that timeframe and talked with an FBI agent about the stone maps. The headline and the investigation that followed would fit very nicely in that timeframe. Would Bob’s story have been a separate investigation or was it all included under the umbrella of the “Sweeping Probe”? We can’t be sure one way or the other.

What the article does is give someone a leg up for further investigation. The Apache Junction Newspaper would likely have followed up on this article and we might be able identify which groups were involved and what some of the investigation uncovered. Someone might even stumble across a reference to MOEL which might help bring the Bob Corbin story into focus. :)

Garry
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Garry and Joe,

Garry first, thanks for posting all the documents. I still haven't had a chance to go through everything yet. I have had all the MOEL SEC Stuff, but didn't have any of the Bernice McGee Correspondence.

Read the MOEL Documentation carefully. You will see that MOEL was legally selling shares from its' original 1,000,000. I don't have the documents open in front of me but I'll shoot from the hip a bit. The only thing MOEL screwed up was not filing the proper document that allowed them to trade in MOEL Stock during the year 1964. Carefully read the document that describes the Mitchells' and Kriewald's "Permanent" enjoinment from selling MOEL Stock. There is a little sentence in there that says (to the effect) UNLESS THE PROPER FORM IS FILED. So, its' not saying that they can never sell MOEL Stock again. It only states that until they file the correct documents, they can't sell any more stock in MOEL.

As far as how the Museum came to possess the Stone Maps, here is the reply I got from Ray Grant (a curator) at the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum:
We have a single sheet of paper that says the stones were donated in 1969 by a Boyd Cochrane for Moel Inc.

The story, not written, was that the court ordered the company that was using the stones (Moel?) to raise money to donate them to a non-profit organization and that was how we got them.
What I HAVE wondered regarding MOEL and their use of the stones was: Since MOEL stood for Mining Oil Exploration and Leasing, why is it that they didn't have a staff geologist? The whole point was to FIND mineral/oil rich properties and lease them to larger companies, right? Just a thought.

Joe,

Bob Corbin has never changed his story regarding his meeting with the FBI Agent. You stated:
Since I didn't really believe the (FBI) story, it never seemed important.
Is it that you don't believe Bob Corbin that it ever happened? Is it that you believe the FBI Agent lied to him regarding their involvement? I don't understand. Either it happened or it didn't. The ONLY way it didn't happen is if Bob Corbin is lying. I have NEVER known ANYBODY that doubted Bob Corbin's word on a subject. Are you saying that he hallucinated the event? If we heard the story second or third hand from someone else, I could see your side, but we have statements on more than one occasion from the man himself. If Bob Corbin hadn't personally made the statement to both you and Greg Davis, I might not be investing much time to the Stones.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Cubfan64 »

Mike, I'm sure Joe will respond, but I think you're misinterpreting his comment that you quoted. Note this other comment he made in the post before that one...
I still don't believe that the FBI had anything, officially, to do with the Stone Maps. My guess is that a local agent gave an opinion on the stones, based on nothing more than a visual once-over.
This statement implies what I "think" is Joe's opinion overall about the FBI involvement regarding the stones. It doesn't question Bob's story at all - it just doesn't interpret it as anything significant.

I'm with Joe on this one in that without a documented report or at least some kind of official written word from the FBI, Bob's story (while true) doesn't clarify whether the agent's statement to him was just a personal opinion or not and there's NO analysis facts to go along with the statement that can be examined.

I hope I'm not stepping on your toes Joe because I think that's your feeling - if not, please correct me.

Paul
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

I would say you have a pretty good handle on my opinion here.

Mike,

I believe that's the second time you have expressed that opinion. Let me explain my position once more, so that it won't happen again.

Bob Corbin is a personal friend of ours. If he tells me something, I am taking it to the bank. I have never believed for a moment that he was not telling the truth about what took place that day. On the other hand, it's just possible that the friend he was visiting in the US Attorneys office may have assumed that the stones were taken to the FBI Lab and in reality they may never have left Phoenix.

Once again, this is what Bob wrote to me:

[From: Robert Corbin
Date: 06/18/10 18:58:59
To: Joe Ribaudo
Subject: Re: FBI Stuff.......

Joe I don't know anything about what is in your e-mail other than what I have previously said and that was I was visiting a friend in the US Attorneys office and he said that an FBI agent was in the office who had investigated the stone maps to see if they were a fraud and who worked in their lab in DC. I asked him what he had found and he told me that in his opinion that they were at least 100 years old. That is it,the rest of the statements in your e-mail I never said nor do I know anything about them. I don't know how the US Attorneys office in Phoenix got the stones nor why they were investigating them. I do not know a Mitchell or anything about him. The Antiquities Act is a federal act and is enforced by the federal government and not the state. I was never a Deputy US Attorney, I was a Deputy County Attorney and a County Attorney. To my knowledge we never confiscated the stone maps so we could have never made any deals with anyone. If there was any deals made I sure wasn't involved and I never knew anything about them. If they were made it would have been with the US Attorneys office. In other words Jim is sure putting a lot of words in my mouth which I never said. Hope this answers your e-mail but if it hasn't let me know. By the way, Tom Kollenborn. Told me about Jim and what he was saying I said but not in detail. I told Tom that every thing I have ever said about the maps was what the FBI agent told me that day and that was it. In fact I think the stone maps are fake anyway. Bob]

I believe that is what took place, nothing more, nothing less.

Hope that makes my position clear.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Well Joe,

It looks like Bob is telling two slightly different stories. Here is the quote from Greg Davis' conversation with Bob when he was trying to clarify some points of the story:
Gentlemen:
After having read Aurum last several posts I called Bob Corbin this evening to clarify some points about his FBI story pertaining to the Stone Maps. His reply was, "between 1966-69” I was the County Attorney. I was in the U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys told me that an FBI agent from the FBI Laboratory in Washington D.C. was in their office and asked if I wanted to talk with him about the Stone Maps. Apparently the Phoenix office had obtained the Stone Maps to have them analyzed by the FBI Laboratories in Washington DC to see if they were recent fakes. I said yes. (Bob told me that the maps were physical sent back to the Washington DC lab). The agent I spoke with only said that the maps were believed to be at least a
hundred years old". Bob did not see the maps at that time. Bob further said that the maps were sent to the Washington DC lab because the Phoenix FBI lab was not equipped to analyze them.

OK, before we go any further, I suggest that someone contact the Washington D.C. FBI offices or the National Archives through the Freedom of Information Act and see if they can obtain a copy of the case file for the Stone Maps. This should answer the questions put forth in these posts discussions as to the involvement of the FBI with the Stone Maps and MOEL.
Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
So, when Bob spoke with Greg four years ago, he was quite specific about what he understood the FBI's involvement to be.

I do understand your side, and I know that he is a friend of yours. I also know just how meticulous Greg is and I highly doubt he got a single word of his conversation with Bob wrong (especially all those specifics).

The difference between the two stories is pretty drastic (especially given the subject).

The only course of action I can fathom is to go back to Bob and ask some very specific questions. Remind him of his conversation with Greg and see if he remembers it that way.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Cubfan64 »

Mike McChesney wrote:Well Joe,

It looks like Bob is telling two slightly different stories. Here is the quote from Greg Davis' conversation with Bob when he was trying to clarify some points of the story:
Gentlemen:
After having read Aurum last several posts I called Bob Corbin this evening to clarify some points about his FBI story pertaining to the Stone Maps. His reply was, "between 1966-69” I was the County Attorney. I was in the U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys told me that an FBI agent from the FBI Laboratory in Washington D.C. was in their office and asked if I wanted to talk with him about the Stone Maps. Apparently the Phoenix office had obtained the Stone Maps to have them analyzed by the FBI Laboratories in Washington DC to see if they were recent fakes. I said yes. (Bob told me that the maps were physical sent back to the Washington DC lab). The agent I spoke with only said that the maps were believed to be at least a
hundred years old". Bob did not see the maps at that time. Bob further said that the maps were sent to the Washington DC lab because the Phoenix FBI lab was not equipped to analyze them.

OK, before we go any further, I suggest that someone contact the Washington D.C. FBI offices or the National Archives through the Freedom of Information Act and see if they can obtain a copy of the case file for the Stone Maps. This should answer the questions put forth in these posts discussions as to the involvement of the FBI with the Stone Maps and MOEL.
Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
So, when Bob spoke with Greg four years ago, he was quite specific about what he understood the FBI's involvement to be.

I do understand your side, and I know that he is a friend of yours. I also know just how meticulous Greg is and I highly doubt he got a single word of his conversation with Bob wrong (especially all those specifics).

The difference between the two stories is pretty drastic (especially given the subject).

The only course of action I can fathom is to go back to Bob and ask some very specific questions. Remind him of his conversation with Greg and see if he remembers it that way.

Best-Mike
That seems reasonable to me Mike - Joe, would you be willing to pass along the post from Greg to Bob and see if he remembers it that same way?
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

I have passed along the question, as well as the quote from Greg, to Bob. I feel like I am imposing on him to keep dredging up requests for the exact conversation that took place over forty years ago. I can assure you that I will never ask him about that conversation again. Hell, I can't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone conversations that took place........last week.

I feel that any questions can really only be answered by Beth or Mike's reply from the FBI. If they ever had the Stone Maps, in any capacity, there will be a ream of paperwork on it. I am still betting that no documentation will be forthcoming.

It's up to Bob if he wants to address this question one more time. Carolyn and I were both amazed at his recall of past events including names, dates and details. Truth is, we could both listen to him talk for many hours. The title of Elmer Keith's book, "Hell I Was There", describes Bob's life to a "T".

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Thanks Joe,

While it is an imposition, it is a question that ONLY Bob can answer. As his story regarding the incident is one of my primary reasons for thinking the Stone Maps to be authentic, I think it would be one of the more important things to know the exact facts about.

With Jane Dana not being able to find any papers regarding her late husband's involvement (although she did remember the stones she also said that she thought it possible her husband destroyed all the papers from his private side jobs), it makes every official tidbit even more important. Somebody should have done this many years ago while Martin Stroud and Steven Dana were still alive. Now that every person associated with MOEL Inc is dead as well, it just makes everything more difficult.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by novice »

One of the questions that I had from the Mitchell-McGee Letters was the mention of Richard Peck and his involvement in causing Clarence Mitchell to lose control of the stones. He wasn’t a stockholder of MOEL and there was no apparent connection forthcoming.

To make a long story short, Greg told me that Roger Newkirk was coming out to do some research around the 4th of July and asked if there was anything I might like to have him check out. (Poor Roger!)

I asked Roger to check the Richard Peck file to see if there was anything regarding MOEL. That file is huge but Greg did have a couple of folders labeled MOEL. Roger spent several hours of his own research time on my request and made, in my eyes, some very exciting finds. It certainly added another bend in the road for the stone map history.

Roger graciously sent a large package of copies that I received yesterday. To give everyone a better feel for the kinds of things talked about in the Peck file, I will list a few items that Roger has already sorted out.

The time period begins in 1964 until the last letter that Roger copied in 1968.

MOEL offered to sell the stones to Peck for $200,000

Peck and MOEL worked on a couple of business agreements regarding the stone maps.

MOEL officers conducted their own investigation of Travis Tumlinson. They made a couple of trips to Hood River, Oregon and apparently contacted the Tumlinson family in Texas.

Peck was notified that the maps were to be offered to the highest bidder on June 22, 1968.

There is a lot more in Roger’s package but you begin to get a picture. It also helps with the understanding of the Mitchell-McGee letters.

Nothing on the FBI yet. :)

Roger said there is additional material in the Peck-MOEL Files that he didn’t digest. He just ran out of time.

Good Work, Roger!

Garry
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Bob Corbin On The Stone Maps

Post by Roger »

While going through Greg Davis' collections earlier this month, I found a letter from Bob Corbin to Greg dated 4/19/2005 that was handwritten on Helen Corbin's letterhead stationary which I have a copy of. Greg said he had posted this letter some time ago, but thought I would post it again to see if it will clarify the questions surrounding Corbin's involvement with the Stone Maps. Bob wrote:

"Dear Greg,

In response to your request for information on the stone maps, it was approximately in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the US Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy US Attorneys told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix office had obtained the stone maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stones maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.

Hope the above is of some help.

Bob"

I checked the "Bob" signature against Bob's signature in my copy of Helen Corbin's The Bible and it matches.

Bob does not indicate that the stone maps were sent to Washington DC, but that an agent from the FBI lab in Washington DC was in the Phoenix office. This took place prior to Bob becoming AZ Attorney General in 1978.

Roger
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey Roger,

Garry posted that note with the other Stone Maps Documents. What to see is a follow up phone call to Corbin made by Greg Davis in order to clarify some of the things in his note.

A transcript of THAT phone call is what I posted previously.

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe, I understand not wanting to really bother Bob about the conversation and issue, but it would be nice to really put it all to rest finally since there are still some documented inconsistencies.

Nobody wants to put words in Bob's mouth, and if he's willing to help clarify things that would be a big help I'm sure.

Paul
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

Bob replied to my email this morning.

He states that what he told Greg was "just about all that was said". As you can see from Greg's quote, there were a few assumptions in his statement. I believe those assumptions are based on Bob's assessment of the facts, as he remembers them.

Once again, the real answers will come from the requests through the FOIA. Bob believes the FBI had possession of the stones for testing. That is based, in my opinion, on what he was told by others, and not on any personal knowledge or physical evidence he had.

If the FBI had the Stone Maps for testing, what was the results of those tests and how was any determination made? Did they have the original maps, or copies?

Bob is willing to answer more questions, but I don't know what else to ask him. Everything is based on what his friend told him and what one FBI Agent said was HIS opinion: "I then talked with the agent and told him I was interested in what he had found since I looked for the Dutchman.The agent then told me that he thought they were at least 100 years old. I thanked him and then told Dick what he had said. That is it."

I believe that's as good as we're going to get. Let's see what the requests for information from the FBI garners.

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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

So, if we are all in agreement that Greg's Transcription of his phone conversation with Bob Corbin is the final word on the subject, we can progress from there.
(Bob told me that the maps were physical sent back to the Washington DC lab)
That does not appear to be an "opinion"
Bob further said that the maps were sent to the Washington DC lab because the Phoenix FBI lab was not equipped to analyze them.
That also does not appear to be an "opinion"

Best-Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

While those statements are not opinions, they MAY be assumptions, but they don't have an assumptive quality about them. He clearly stated twice that the FBI had both physical custody of the stones, and that the stones were sent to the FBI Lab in D.C. He didn't say "he thought" or "he believed" they were sent.

You know Bob and trust his memory, and I know Greg, and know his meticulousness at getting things exactly correct. We now even have Bob verifying everything that was in his phone conversation with Greg.

You say that he may be assuming some of those things, but did he ever say to you that he made any assumptions? I ask because that conversation seems very detailed regarding the FBI's Involvement.

Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe,

The only thing I see in Greg's phone call transcription that I would consider possibly an assumption on his part is this:

"Apparently the Phoenix office had obtained the Stone Maps to have them analyzed by the FBI Laboratories in Washington DC to see if they were recent fakes." And even that is based on Bob's comment to Greg later...

Bob further said that the maps were sent to the Washington DC lab because the Phoenix FBI lab was not equipped to analyze them.


Beyond that, I agree with Mike that the rest of the commentary has a "fact" quality to it - not assumptions or even opinions.

I'll be very surprised if any further information comes back from the FBI using the Freedom of Information Act because I would think someone somewhere would have already tried that option - hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

You're right though Joe that further info. from the FBI (either Arizona State or Washington) is about the only way to know anything more.
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

There is a change in Bob's statement. I have read that letter to Greg, just recently in fact, and never had any doubts that it was from Bob. In Bob's email today, he once again said: "The agent then told me that he thoughtthey were at least 100 years old."

What my original comment on this matter.....way back when, was that one word misspoken or written could change the entire thing. If the FBI did the testing, then "they thought" would have more meaning. If the agent Bob talked to was giving his personal opinion, then "he thought" would become important.

Bob sent me a second email a little while ago and repeated: "Joe. As I said in the previous e-mail he said "he had done the testing on the maps". I have never heard the name MOEL until we started corresponding on what Jim had said."

Personally, I am still not convinced that the FBI (officially) ever had possession of the Stone Maps. For me, that will require some kind of official documentation. When I get together again with Bob, I imagine the subject will come up once more.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

I agree with Paul that I doubt I am the first person to submit a FOIA Request regarding the Stone Maps.

So, while waiting for the FBI to finish with my request, I contacted the FBI Lab in DC directly. After a couple of days going through the loopty-loop, I was finally put in touch with the FBI Historian. He told me that if the FBI tested the stones as a favor for a city or state attorney's office, it is entirely possible that a FOIA Search will turn up nothing.

Unless the examination was in conjunction with a criminal proceeding, it may be VERY difficult to find a lab report. He said that without a case number, it is hard, but he will do what he can to find anything they may have.

Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roger,

There is a change in Bob's statement. I have read that letter to Greg, just recently in fact, and never had any doubts that it was from Bob. In Bob's email today, he once again said: "The agent then told me that he thoughtthey were at least 100 years old."

What my original comment on this matter.....way back when, was that one word misspoken or written could change the entire thing. If the FBI did the testing, then "they thought" would have more meaning. If the agent Bob talked to was giving his personal opinion, then "he thought" would become important.

Bob sent me a second email a little while ago and repeated: "Joe. As I said in the previous e-mail he said "he had done the testing on the maps". I have never heard the name MOEL until we started corresponding on what Jim had said."

Personally, I am still not convinced that the FBI (officially) ever had possession of the Stone Maps. For me, that will require some kind of official documentation. When I get together again with Bob, I imagine the subject will come up once more.

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

The agent that Bob spoke to was from the FBI Lab in DC. Maybe he was the agent that personally did the testing. Maybe HIS opinion was the FBI's opinion.

Just a thought.

Mike
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Re: Peralta Stone Maps - Clarence Mitchell Era to the Present

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Maybe may not the best thing to base your conclusions on. But then again, maybe it is. :)

Take care,

Joe
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