What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

[Just curious about your "plan of attack";]

I have no plan of attack from Lake Havasu. It would take a week or so to run down any information that might have survive in the official records.

You have hit every point on any "plan of attack" I have discussed with others. It started with my friend Bob Corbin's recommendations. At his urging I contacted Greg Davis. Greg informed me that the new coroner had recently destroyed or threw out all of the old records.......without authority.

Bob suggested that the search be broadened a bit, and that seems like the path to follow. Into Pinal County coroner and Sheriff's Office. Most of the people I have talked to believe the copies of the official reports are in the hands of Dutch Hunters. I believe some people have hinted as much in past posts in various forums.

Sorry you can't gin up any interest in those records. You and Larry are "the men" when it comes to this kind of research. It seems like an important and interesting case.

Take care,

Joe

[don]

Joe,
Im not being disrespectful but.......something doesnt quite fit .The people you have named ,who have suggested you follow this "paperchase" to wherever it leads/ends might appear at first glance to be the very people who might have naturally been expected to have searched out these documents years ago.....if they existed.
Bearing in mind the number of books written which tell the reader in no uncertain fashion,and as a definitively ascertained fact ,that Ruth was murdered etc etc ad nauseum,one might think that the official files would have been the best place to begin to form such an opinion....but it seems plain that nobody did..or indeed could have by the sound of it.They instead formed the pre -mentioned opinion on a plethora of hand me down tales. Itmight appear to the more cynical amongst us that the only possible alternative would be that those files were accessed ,but nothing in those files supported a murder verdict ,so they were quickly and quietly ditched.After all ,at times ,the truth can be quite mundane and not quite as exciting and mysterious as murder,headless cadavers ,Ruths imprisonment and supposed torture by mysterious characters and all the rest.I better stop before I start upsetting people methinks.....carry on...
regards

[Joe Ribaudo]

Don,

I have no problems with your conclusions, based on the information we all have. That should not stop us from seeking that which we don't have, but common sense tells us must have existed at one time.

Don't know if you have ever been up on the back side of Black Top Mesa, where Ruth's bones were said to have been found, which I personally doubt, but there is no way that his head could have been washed down to where it was found.

Had an animal found the head of enough interest to carry it away from the rest of the bones, it would have done a bit of gnawing around the weaker parts of the skull. Just the nature of such beasts. No such marks were found on Ruth's skull. In fact, bit's of flesh still adhered to the skull's surface.

I realize that not everyone will find these facts unusual, but someone who has spent as much time as I have in the desert, and seen the bones of many animals, as well as humans, might find reason for pause.

Hope all is well for you.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

When trying to piece together the "authentic" truth about the LDM and Adolph Ruth, it doesn't hurt to be aware that a great many "authentic" stories have been complete fiction. Here is one such fabrication from Peter's old site:

"Referring back to the above photo of the Hakes and their young son Daniel.

I met Daniel and his wife Melissa at the very last Arizona Pioneers reunion held in Phoenix in 1960. Daniel was in his 80's then and a historian of the Hakes and Morse families. Daniel passed away a few years later but his wife lived on into the mid 1970's passing on at the age of 95. While visiting with Beatrice Lewis of Mesa ( wife of Al Lewis of the Goldfield mines) and Mrs. Daniel Hakes, I had the occasion to listen to the story of Adolph Ruth and the Hakes and Morse involvement, parts of which I have related here in this post.

Hopefully this information might be used to pursue a new and more authentic angle in furthering research on the mystery of Adolph Ruth."
__________________________________________

That sounds pretty "authentic" until you consider the fact that the author of that post was only 10 years old in 1960.....and not living in Arizona. To be precise, the author was born on Oct. 16, 1950, and came to Arizona around 1980.

Why do people make up these "facts"? Could it just be ego, or are they paving the way for a future book that will include these "first person" accounts?

IMHO, the most trusted sources should be checked seven ways from Sunday, if you're looking for information concerning the LDM.

If the author reads this post, and I know he still posts here, you have my email address as well as my phone #. Feel free to get in touch and let me know where I am wrong in what I have just written.

I know......I know. It sucks!

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

I do have a bit of an interesting question concerning this...........how many of you have physically stood in the skull and remains sites?

The first time I stood just above the area where Ruth died (allegedly) I thought he was working his way down Black Top fell down, cracked his head and died. You can envision that scenario with no problem standing there. I have seen many people working their way down hill and taking that kind of spill in that type of situation and slipping and going down back side first or tumbling. An elderly man with a bad hip in the summer heat and either excited or dehydrated going downhill is an accident waiting to happen.

Just ask Randy...............

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Just wondering......Did Randy end up with two holes in his skull????

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

If he came down head first it is likely.........

[Cubfan64]

I do have a bit of an interesting question concerning this...........how many of you have physically stood in the skull and remains sites?

The first time I stood just above the area where Ruth died (allegedly) I thought he was working his way down Black Top fell down, cracked his head and died. You can envision that scenario with no problem standing there. I have seen many people working their way down hill and taking that kind of spill in that type of situation and slipping and going down back side first or tumbling. An elderly man with a bad hip in the summer heat and either excited or dehydrated going downhill is an accident waiting to happen.

Just ask Randy...............

I've been in the general area, but I never found out exactly where he was supposedly found.

[Oroblanco]

Zentull wrote

An elderly man with a bad hip in the summer heat and either excited or dehydrated going downhill is an accident waiting to happen.

Just ask Randy...............

WHAT? Randy is an elderly man and may well have a bad hip too? My goodness, Randy has your health deteriorated that much since last October? Gosh on the other hand, if Randy is elderly, then I must be (shudder) ancient!
<I am kidding Zentull, at Randy's expense of course! I just hope that he has at least one leg in a cast next time we meet, so I will have at least some small chance of outrunning him!>

Zentull I take it that you do not suspect any kind of foul play by Keenan or Purcell? What about the map that later turned up in his possession, which led to the court case? Do you hold that it was given by Ruth, or lost or stolen etc - how do you explain that map (which as far as I know has never turned up again) being in the possession of one of the two men whom had packed Ruth in? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

[Oroblanco]

EDIT - correct that last post to say "Purnell" and not "Purcell" - was writing it from memory and frequently mistake that name. Sorry.
Oroblanco

[djui5]

I'm gonna wear a shirt to the Rendezvous that says "pick on me".

Wayne brought up a good theory, except that only explains the hole in one side of his head. I still believe he was shot, personally.

Oh, fwiw, I'm walking on both legs now with shoes on both feet. Hiking is still a bit off but I'm recovering. Hopefully things go well with the camp clean up before the gathering this year

[zentull]

Oh yeah the court case that I have never seen documents of and a skull that was shipped off without being returned to the proper authorities( though it was national news and he was supposedly shot), add in that pieces of that skull, including the dentures and lower mandible were among the bones found on the hillside.

Could of been an accident, maybe not, but the more I learn the less I believe the conspiracies and other stuff. Good for the tourism trade I suppose.

[zentull]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the treasure map no one has ever seen........yeah that could convince me otherwise!!!!

I do believe there were folks that have seen and may have copies of various reports, but the Ruth tale needs preservation I suppose.

What about the folks who were murdered and found missing their heads! They get lost in the conspiracy shuffles. Go through Gregs newspaper articles and find the guys that didn't make the grade. They interest me even more.

[Oroblanco]

Zentull wrote

Oh yeah the court case that I have never seen documents of and a skull that was shipped off without being returned to the proper authorities( though it was national news and he was supposedly shot), add in that pieces of that skull, including the dentures and lower mandible were among the bones found on the hillside.

Could of been an accident, maybe not, but the more I learn the less I believe the conspiracies and other stuff. Good for the tourism trade I suppose.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the treasure map no one has ever seen........yeah that could convince me otherwise!!!!

I do believe there were folks that have seen and may have copies of various reports, but the Ruth tale needs preservation I suppose.

What about the folks who were murdered and found missing their heads! They get lost in the conspiracy shuffles. Go through Gregs newspaper articles and find the guys that didn't make the grade. They interest me even more.

Well, those 'other guys' who didn't make the grade do not interest me so much as Adolph Ruth, due to the connections Ruth had prior to his disappearance and death. I must respectfully disagree that Ruth died by accident, and to explain why I am convinced he was murdered by one of the men who packed him in by <Purnell> posting one of the letters of correspondence between Erwin Ruth and the Phoenix city police.

I am also attaching Dr Hrdlicka's letter. First the letter from Phoenix city police:

First part

Ruth-Jones-corresp-1.gif (229.06 KiB) Viewed 29054 times

second part

Ruth-Jones-corresp-2.gif (232.18 KiB) Viewed 29054 times

part three

Ruth-Jones-corresp-3.gif (206.41 KiB) Viewed 29054 times

Continued in next message

[Oroblanco]

Continued from last;

part four

Ruth-Jones-corresp-4.gif (154.82 KiB) Viewed 29054 times

==================================================================
Dr Hrdlicka's letter <first draft, can't find the actual offhand>

first draft version Dr Hrdklicka letter

ruth report.gif (234.54 KiB) Viewed 29054 times

The more I have learned of this chapter of history, the more I have become convinced Ruth was murdered, for possession of the now missing map.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[djui5]

Nice Roy!! Well done Sir.

[zentull]

Both have gone through the ringer and Dan Jones I believe had no jurisdiction and was looking into this for Erwin. There was a thread where it was discussed that he or perhaps his children might have had his files. Might of been discussed elsewhere, but this was Pinal county and while Maricopa might have had an interest and followed up, Phoenix PD is a bit of a stretch. Erwin was convinced Adolph was murdered and stayed with that to the end. The fact he was involved in the search and propably never visited any sites involved in the case limits his on the ground knowledge. I believe Clay said he doubted that Erwin ever left his comfort zone during the search. This was a couple of years ago at the rendezvous, but Clay had some interesting things to say and actually met Erwin. Clay gave us a lot to think about.

The skull was never sent back to Phoenix that I know of and was not requested by the authorities. In fact Halseth was hoping to make a buck off the situation I believe. If those findings were definitive and Halseth and Hrdlicka believed it was murder, then the skull should have been sent back to Phoenix for the investigation. Instead it was given to the Ruth family who didn't do anything either. Now I believe Adolphs wife had some say in why, but again you can't impede an investigation. So I believe some of this wasn't made public at the time. Perhaps Halseth was looking for an angle and the family buried the skull and he was left high and dry.

Halseth also claims he found the skull first and early on said it was most likely an Indian skull. Was this a ruse to get it in his possession?

one thing I do know is everyone believed that Keenan and/or Purnell were associated in some way with what happened. The returned off and on to the area but would leave when recognized. The other supposed suspects are just gossip and rumor.

[Oroblanco]

Zentull wrote

Both have gone through the ringer and Dan Jones I believe had no jurisdiction and was looking into this for Erwin. There was a thread where it was discussed that he or perhaps his children might have had his files. Might of been discussed elsewhere, but this was Pinal county and while Maricopa might have had an interest and followed up, Phoenix PD is a bit of a stretch. Erwin was convinced Adolph was murdered and stayed with that to the end. The fact he was involved in the search and propably never visited any sites involved in the case limits his on the ground knowledge. I believe Clay said he doubted that Erwin ever left his comfort zone during the search. This was a couple of years ago at the rendezvous, but Clay had some interesting things to say and actually met Erwin. Clay gave us a lot to think about.

The skull was never sent back to Phoenix that I know of and was not requested by the authorities. In fact Halseth was hoping to make a buck off the situation I believe. If those findings were definitive and Halseth and Hrdlicka believed it was murder, then the skull should have been sent back to Phoenix for the investigation. Instead it was given to the Ruth family who didn't do anything either. Now I believe Adolphs wife had some say in why, but again you can't impede an investigation. So I believe some of this wasn't made public at the time. Perhaps Halseth was looking for an angle and the family buried the skull and he was left high and dry.

Halseth also claims he found the skull first and early on said it was most likely an Indian skull. Was this a ruse to get it in his possession?

one thing I do know is everyone believed that Keenan and/or Purnell were associated in some way with what happened. The returned off and on to the area but would leave when recognized. The other supposed suspects are just gossip and rumor.

I do not know what the regulations were about crime evidence in 1936, and considering that the case had been officially ruled as a death by natural causes by the county coroner, the skull officially was not murder evidence in the eyes of the court. I would not dismiss the efforts of the Phoenix city police department for their investigation got farther than the county sheriff did, and Jones held a deputy position for Pinal county anyway so could act if there was enough evidence.

To look at this another way, if Adolph Ruth really just fell and died accidentally, why would Purnell turn up repeatedly with a map he claimed he took from Ruth, and admit to at least two other persons that he personally killed Ruth for the map? Notoriety is one thing, but considering the actions of Purnell it does not appear that he simply claimed to be the killer for the sake of notoriety. I will add some from the following correspondence between Jones and Ruth but not all of it as time is limited, it is interesting. The impression I have is that the police were only waiting for the map or any evidence which was known to have been in possession of Adolph Ruth to turn up in order to arrest Purnell and file murder charges as they had two possible witnesses who could state Purnell had confessed to them.

I already had this info when I started this thread so had my own ideas about what really happened to Ruth, but wanted to hear what others thought or believed. Some interesting theories have been in circulation for a long time, including that a murder plot was hatched at the Quarter Circle before Ruth ever left there, and the conspirators named included a couple of well known Dutch hunters <Brownie Holmes was suggested for one>. I think we can exonerate Holmes at least based on Purnell's claims. As to moving Ruth's body, I don't believe it was done with an eye to help the murderer get away with it, more like an attempt to steer the Dutch hunters and curiosity seekers away from his pastures. What I cannot figure out is Keenan - what was his part in this? It appears that he did not stick with Purnell and did not have possession of the Spanish map. Did he just fade into obscurity? Maybe we can never know?

Thank you all again for the very interesting discussion, I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

Almost forgot, here is some more of that correspondence;

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Ruth-Jones-corresp-7.gif (144.93 KiB) Viewed 29336 times

[pippinwhitepaws]

i wish i had something factual...
not one of the "ruth stories" holds water, imo...

we avoided this topic once...
i do believe there is only one person in a 60 mile radius...
that could cause all these tough cowboy-miner types...to run around bragging about killing someone...beheading them...
draggin the body to an fro up some wicked damn cliff...down the other side...
stealing their map...
found the mine...lost the mine...hid the mine...mined it out...

all these men had hung out at one spot..
ate drank worked...loafed...
it was the only place there.
criminal, drifters, water is the true gold in the desert...

an has anyone looked at the spotted earth just south of the board house? this is a little knoll, surrounded by red spots...i never walked over there but once...an that looking for the old trail to florence...but...it is at the edge of the caldera...on a line with the minerals belt that runs the pinerlos.
check out google earth.

[pippinwhitepaws]

now see? perfect example...not even the magpie's will respond to the facts.

or i really need to go post elsewhere.

[Cubfan64]

I didn't respond because I'm actually not sure what facts you're presenting PWP? I don't want to make any incorrect assumptions as to who you may be implying. Pretty much every piece of evidence I've seen on Ruth's death is all circumstantial and as you said, pointing at everyone and their uncle.

Anything more you can add?

[Oroblanco]

Pippinwhitepaws wrote

now see? perfect example...not even the magpie's will respond to the facts.

or i really need to go post elsewhere.

I have to echo our mutual amigo Cubfan here, what facts are you referring to?

Side note here but many of us can only get online sporadically, so cannot respond right away to a new post.

It is an established fact that Adolph Ruth hired the two men Keenan and Purnell at the Quarter Circle U ranch to pack him in; it is established in Ruth's letter that these men had a high powered rifle in their possession at the time, which they explained as used for hunting "goats"; Ruth was definitely missing for some time before discovered, the two men Keenan and Purnell returned to the ranch, took Ruth's car and used it to take their girlfriends to a movie in Phoenix. Both of these men left the area for some time, and Purnell returned and made statements to his girlfriend and his new partner Baker about how and where he got his Spanish map, which was definitely one item which was missing from Ruth's possessions when he was found.

So I have to respectfully disagree, while many of the stories around Ruth are largely based on speculation, that of Purnell being the murderer is founded on a fair amount of fact.

Thank you all again for the interesting replies, and I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

[zentull]

A few years back Randy did an excellent article concerning the profile maps history on Peters forum. I will stop by Gregs and get a copy to post because it was too good to not be archived here. The issue was with the history of that map and I think it showed without a doubt that the map copy that Erwin passed to Magill was not the original. How did Erwin pass along a later version with a ton of additions? Neither was the copy of the other maps which came from various sources including Sims Ely. Erwin didn't know it appears that those were not the maps from the Gonzales family? After that article and Clays insight into Erwin from his actual conversations and letters with him, I began to doubt the routine story. I believe folks thought Keenan and Purnell were either involved or knew something more about Ruth, but obviously nothing very definitive. whether it was accidental or what know one will probably ever know.

The other issue is why the topo map was left behind that had markings? It would be helpful in correlating info, but they left that along with other items. It is kind of like they took his plate but left the dentures and wallet.

The two primary sources I have for Ruths being murdered are Erwin and Gus Barkley. Barkley was convinced even after the official statement that Ruth was killed, but he was also one of the first to go public initially that Ruth was likely murdered. We never get any sources from the ground search, but there had to be hundreds involved that had stories.

[zentull]

By the way I was pretty sure that we had the documentation that both Keenan and Purnell worked for Cal Morse and Erwin did stay there initially during the search. Though there are disputed facts concerning the longer version of that story, There is documentation of the above.

[Cubfan64]

By the way I was pretty sure that we had the documentation that both Keenan and Purnell worked for Cal Morse and Erwin did stay there initially during the search. Though there are disputed facts concerning the longer version of that story, There is documentation of the above.

I ran across something the other day that tied Cal Morse into the story - I don't recall if it was a newspaper article or exactly what it was, but I remember noticing it wasn't just a rumor. I'll see if I can find it again - I knew I should have highlighted it when I saw it.