What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by don »

Joe,
I suspected as much....as much from the things that are never said..or were never said......and how things would go quiet when certain issues were skirted around.
I think thats what called a cryptic statement ..though I might be wrong 8O
regards
Don update your email address
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don,

1931 was a long time ago. Not just in years, but in human perspectives. It was 35 years before the Freedom Of Information Act. Small towns were a law unto themselves and, pretty much, ignored the big city law. Phoenix was the big city and boasted a population of 48,118 souls in 1930.

When the local authorities told you to sit down and shut up, you paid close attention. The squeaky wheel was quickly rolled (roughly) out of town and labeled a troublemaker.
Friends in high places were worth more than gold.

Not saying that's what took place, but the conditions were right.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

An interesting story about Adolph Ruth is that he was in the Superstitions much earlier than 1931. Two people have seen a letter, I believe it involved Cal Morris, who was a friend of the Ruth's, that talked about a trip in 1928.

At some time I believe Jesse Feldman made a comment about Ruth being in the mountains at an earlier date. I don't remember if he mentioned a date and I can't remember if it's in his book.

If my friend can find that letter, he believes he has a copy, it will certainly put a new slant on the Adolph Ruth story. I was talking with a good friend Saturday, he is a well respected Old Timer in the Dutch Hunting Community, and his opinion is that Ruth knew exactly where he wanted to camp and that was Willow Spring.

He also doesn't believe that Ruth came in from Second Water Ranch but rode in directly from the Quarter Circle-U where he was staying.

All of that is food for thought.......at least for me. I would speculate that his "guides" took him up what is now called Peralta Trail, crossed over the ridge to the west of Fremont Pass, and dropped into West Boulder just south of Willow Spring.

I have believed this for thirty years or so, but like to throw it out now and again for some new conversation and speculation.

Joe Ribaudo
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:An interesting story about Adolph Ruth is that he was in the Superstitions much earlier than 1931. Two people have seen a letter, I believe it involved Cal Morris, who was a friend of the Ruth's, that talked about a trip in 1928.

At some time I believe Jesse Feldman made a comment about Ruth being in the mountains at an earlier date. I don't remember if he mentioned a date and I can't remember if it's in his book.

If my friend can find that letter, he believes he has a copy, it will certainly put a new slant on the Adolph Ruth story. I was talking with a good friend Saturday, he is a well respected Old Timer in the Dutch Hunting Community, and his opinion is that Ruth knew exactly where he wanted to camp and that was Willow Spring.

He also doesn't believe that Ruth came in from Second Water Ranch but rode in directly from the Quarter Circle-U where he was staying.

All of that is food for thought.......at least for me. I would speculate that his "guides" took him up what is now called Peralta Trail, crossed over the ridge to the west of Fremont Pass, and dropped into West Boulder just south of Willow Spring.

I have believed this for thirty years or so, but like to throw it out now and again for some new conversation and speculation.

Joe Ribaudo
Hola amigos,
I strongly suspect that Ruth had been into the Superstitions prior to his last fatal trip. I have seen something that supports this idea but at the moment can't find it, if I do find it I will post it here.

Even without supporting documentation, Ruth's behavior and actions certainly suggest that he had at least some familiarity with the region he wished to get to. If he were utterly un-familiar with the mountains, you would expect that he would spend time just exploring and getting to know the lay of the land before searching for his markers.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by don »

Not trying to be awkward but ,If Ruth had been into the Superstitions before ,and obviously been familiar with the dangers......wouldnt he have at least taken a partner with him....picked a cooler month... not broadcast the minor matter of his map to all and sundry...and lastly not entrusted his welfare to a couple of itinerant cowboys,who as far as Im aware he had only known for "5 minutes" :roll:
Lastly if Ruth had made this previous trip,Id imagine his family would have known about it....And the papers would have got to know of it also via the family...And papers being papers they would have made everything they could have out of it. No doubt the story would have been Ruth RECOVERING the gold hed hid on his 1st trip or whatever.
If hed visited only 2 years before,are we to believe that during that visit he had been in "invisible mode"?Judging by his behaviour "the 2nd time around" when he appeared to deliberately attract attention to himself and his activities..the "!st visit" seems to have been a direct contrast.
People recall all types of things when its convenient to do so..especially where there is a mystery involved,and a dash of spice can be added to the mix.
Don update your email address
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don,

Good points all, but the obvious answer is that all of Ruth's activities and claims in that fatal trip were created after the fact. If you assume he was murdered, or killed by accident, and I do, everyone involved told a story that suited their purposes........whatever those purposes were.

That would include the conversations that various and sundry players were said to have had with him. It would also include all the people who, after the fact, claimed they saw him in the mountains. Once again, the "Hell I Was There" syndrome.

I have been told by a friend who knew Tex very well, that he was not the kind of man who would have been involved in Ruth's murder or any cover up afterwards. I trust my friends feelings in this, but believe all bets would be off if family or close friends were involved. That would be especially true if some kind of accidental killing took place.

I have been looking at and researching this case for decades. Don't believe we can ever know what really happened, but believe Ruth's mistake was choosing the wrong place to camp and search from. If that's true, it brings his "friend" Cal Morris back into the mix........maybe.

No harm in speculating, based on the evidence that's available, at this late date. The question remains, who do you trust for details and claimed knowledge on what happened to Adolph Ruth? Do you trust Cox.....Roberts......Tex.......Holmes? I have problems with all of them.

Take care,

Joe
deadguy
Greenhorn
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:39 pm
Location: phoenix

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by deadguy »

don wrote:Not trying to be awkward but ,If Ruth had been into the Superstitions before ...and lastly not entrusted his welfare to a couple of itinerant cowboys,who as far as Im aware he had only known for "5 minutes" :roll:
I think I read on the other forum that not only was Ruth in contact with Cal Morris prior to the fateful trip but also, Keenan and Purnell were employed by Cal Morris. (as mechanics?)

Anyone else remember the details/source material to this part of the story???
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by don »

[
No harm in speculating, based on the evidence that's available, at this late date. The question remains, who do you trust for details and claimed knowledge on what happened to Adolph Ruth? Do you trust Cox.....Roberts......Tex.......Holmes? I have problems with all of them.

Hi Joe,
Well certainly not Holmes.....Ive been searching for his "dwarf deers " for last 10 years with little success :lol: Tex? well Ive heard different opinions of him through the years,ranging from some almost christ like figure, right through to a full blown pscycopathic character.Roberts and Cox are hard to evaluate, for me anyway.
So I guess I dont "trust" any of them,some less than others.
Although either verdict( murder or natural causes) can be brought into question,Id prefer to lean towards the official verdict,not because I think officials never lie,but because if there was a cover up it stands to reason there would have been a reason for it.Protecting a friend or family member from murder charge ? maybe...but the conspiracy to cover up would need to stretch from the shefiffs office through to the coroner,taking in numerous people on the way.
I was interested in your statement " that all of Ruth's activities and claims in that fatal trip were created after the fact." and sometimes think that without the press making the most of the story,and locals adding their two pennys worth,and of course Erwin Ruth (who some might say had a penchant for "creative writing")..there would have been no real tale to tell..other than "Another unfortunate man dies in the mts".......
kind regards
Don update your email address
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigos,
In defense of the "dwarf deer" story, I propose that he saw Arizona Coues deer, and yes they are supposed to live in the Superstitions. I have never seen one there, in fact the only place I ever saw one was in Cochise county but they are definitely small deer.

Here is a map showing the ranges of Coues deer in Arizona, the Superstitions are in the low density area (like 1 per square mile) and they are largely nocturnal so day-hikers are not likely to see them, certainly not often.
http://www.coueswhitetail.com/where_to_ ... ty-map.jpg
The Coues white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus couesi) is one of the smallest deer in America. Coues deer stand around 28-32 inches tall at the shoulder and measure about 56 inches (1426 mm) from head to tail. A large field-dressed buck will rarely exceed 80-90 lbs. (although some can exceed 100 pounds) and a doe tends to weigh about 65 lbs. Hoffmeister (1986) reported the average weight of 7 males from the Chiricahua Mtns. in Arizona as 83.5 lbs (37.65 kg); of 19 females as 67.3 lbs. (30.53 kg). Raught (1967) reported that bucks in New Mexico averaged 85-90 lbs (39-41 kg) and females averaged 65 lbs. (29 kg). In contrast, a good-sized field-dressed Eastern Whitetail buck will weigh approximately 200 lbs. (90.91 kg).
<from http://www.coueswhitetail.com/coues_bio ... iology.htm>

Oroblanco

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" -Dr Carl Sagan
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Roy,

Coues deer, Yes. Dwarf deer, as described (maybe) by Brownie, No.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don,

Just for the record, I recently received an offer from a friend to check for the records at the Sheriff's Office. His source was as good as it gets. They don't have the records, which is the same answer I got from my own sources.

However........I did get a possible path to the records if they exist at all.

I am working on it.

Take care,

Joe
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Cubfan64 »

Good luck Joe - that would be a heck of a find!
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

Unfortunately, I just talked to Greg Davis and he told me a new coroner came into office a few years ago and destroyed all of the old records. That was the path to finding the Adolph Ruth case files. Believe we may be back to square one again.

Like me, Greg believes those records may still exist somewhere. I wonder if Erwin Ruth had some copies in his files????? Have we specifically asked for that?

Take care,

Joe
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe - sorry to hear that as it was a good idea. As far as Erwin Ruth's files go, you'll have to ask Novice if he asked that question - I don't recall if ever coming up in our discussions.

I believe there have to be copies of it out there as well - just makes you wonder even more what's in it that people don't to let out in the public.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

My guess would be that well connected people or families were involved in some way with Ruth's death. Any reports that were generated were put in a box, so to speak, and placed in cold storage, or destroyed. Being destroyed does not fit in well with the CYA system of survival. Always a good idea to have that box........available.

Can't help but feel that Adolph's wife and son (Erwin) received copies of that report.

Take care,

Joe
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Cubfan64 »

While it's definitely possible that Erwin and/or Adolph's wife received a copy of the REAL official investigation report, if I were to bet any money on it, I'd say they didn't.

If one is to assume there is SOMETHING of more than casual interest in that report that implicates or casts aspersions on someone important within the community, wouldn't you think someone like Erwin would have pounced on that? He didn't seem to be the sort of person who would have kept quiet about something like that.

Hard to say if any of us will ever know in our lifetimes though sadly.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

Erwin may have had another reason for not saying anything. He was involved in something else in Arizona that may have caused him to not rock the boat. It seems obvious that Mrs. Ruth, as well as Erwin, were pushing the issue as much as they could from back East.

My guess is that they were "stonewalled" by the local authorities and couldn't get any results from the private contacts they were making. At some point in time we may be able to openly discuss why Erwin let the issue die a natural death. I accepted the reasoning for the silence on this matter some time ago, even though I believe it would have little real impact on anyone at this late date.

I have been interested in this story for many, many years now. While I have slowed down somewhat, it will remain part of my research as long as I can continue. There is information out there, well hidden but I believe it could be found, that would shed considerable light on the Adolph Ruth story and tragedy.

I believe Erwin Ruth's lesser known activities, while in Arizona, plays a big part of the uncertain view we have of that story.

Take care,

Joe
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by don »

Im a bit confused here..which isnt that unusual but.......if Erwin and co "didnt want to rock the boat" ,then why did they repeatedly say Adolph was murdered when the official verdict was the opposite? One couldnt rock the boat much more than that.
As for a new coroner taking over and destroying all the old records...would that be legal? And exactly what years records were destroyed? everything pre dec 1931? :lol: Its all a tiny bit convenient isnt it?Exactly what records still exist? or rather for which time period?1940s onwards? 1950s onwards etc?
Its frankly amazing that no-one seems to have seen those records,or rather no-one will admit to seeing them.Now if the "disappearance " or non disclosure of what those records contained was the result of well connected or "involved " families/individuals interference,then to this ignorant observer at least,its almost obvious who we are talking about.But I guess even now to name names might result in some sort of legal action :roll: And who is to say that those who are now denying the existence of the "candy" might well be related to those who "stole "it in the first place,or as a possible alternative being told to keep their traps shut....even at this late stage?
Erwin Ruths otherArizona activities? Is it possible to elaborate on that enigmatic statement Joe?The mystery deepens....for me anyhow.
regards
Don update your email address
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sorry Don,

Clarification of my statement will have to wait a little bit longer.

Rocking the boat could have been much worse. They could have named all of the people they believed were involved.

Greg Davis just gave me that information yesterday. He added the coroner did not have the authority to destroy those records. Did it anyway. Must be taking lessons from our new administration. What we are after is a, Sheriffs Office, case number. From that, it might be possible to find.......something.

Take care,

Joe
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by don »

Frankly I find this conspiracy "thing" a bit difficult to swallow for several reasons,but here is one.If the coroner destroyed these files a "few years ago" (the implication being the destruction was relatively recently) then its hard to believe that the destruction took place with any cover up in mind......the time frame is too long.Any cover up would have to have taken place immediately for it to be effective. And merely presumabley hiding the info in an office safe for 50 years or so seems rather silly .Again,it appears to me this is speculation of the worst kind,firstly the assumption is that Ruth was murdered,its not certain he was....secondly its assumed that the police and coroner were pressured to ascribe Ruths death to natural causes,while all the time KNOWING Ruth was murdered,and if that wasnt enough, also KNOWING who the murderer was,and furthermore covering up for the killer.Thirdly Ruth (ERWIN) is presented as being an accessory after the fact in all this......the "murder"of his father.All thgis speculation might be warranted if there was some evidence .....but there isnt.The "prosecutions case" isnt based not on what IS known, but instead ,on what ISNT known ....or rather, hasnt been seen.
regards
Don update your email address
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by novice »

Don,

You will do well maintaining a healthy skepticism regarding the story we have all been spoon fed. You are asking the right questions. For records to be lost, destroyed or covered up they must have been created in the first place. Court injunctions sealing records, Corner inquests records, sheriff’s investigation records, etc.

From the contemporary accounts we are led to believe that the Adolph Ruth case never rose above that of a missing person report, similar to numerous others. No court involvement, no criminal investigation, no coroner’s hearing. My experience has been that court records and coroner’s records are rarely destroyed!

Your suggestion that someone try to research a similar case and see what kind of records are available is a good one. James A. Cravey should fall within the contemporary records (1947). Sims Ely paints a picture of Cravey similar to that of Adolph Ruth. Cravey was murdered and his body discovered later? What records have survived regarding that case?

Hang in there,

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Bob Corbin along with Greg Davis have given me some paths that might lead to those records. I don't know when I might be able to spend some time in Phoenix, but if you are going to be doing more research here, that might be something you would be interested in pursuing.

I have not gotten back to Greg yet, but will discuss this with him soon.
As you know, Ruth's case is something I have been interested in for many years. It needs to be researched......if possible.

Hope all is well with you and Carol.

Take care,

Joe
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Garry,

Bob Corbin along with Greg Davis have given me some paths that might lead to those records. I don't know when I might be able to spend some time in Phoenix, but if you are going to be doing more research here, that might be something you would be interested in pursuing.

I have not gotten back to Greg yet, but will discuss this with him soon.
As you know, Ruth's case is something I have been interested in for many years. It needs to be researched......if possible.

Hope all is well with you and Carol.

Take care,

Joe
Joe - at this point, ANY lead is worth tracking down!

BTW - off topic I know, but have you heard anything more about Ruth's suspected earlier trip to the Superstitions?
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by don »

Hi Novice,
Yes,It would be interesting to see if any files regarding Craveys death still remained.I also take your point about files"having to be created" before they can be destroyed........if there was nothing other than newspaper talk to support the idea of murder as opposed to natural death,then there wouldnt really be much to create a case file about :D .
In my view ,there were people/agencies back then ,just as there are now,who have had a vested interest in promoting so called mysterious deaths and such like. Newspapers to sell Newspapers.....Authors to sell books....cottage industries etc.
The beat goes on......
regards
Don update your email address
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: What REALLY happened to Adolph Ruth?

Post by novice »

Joe,

I will pass on this one.

I have a good track record of finding my own dead ends. :lol:

Just curious about your "plan of attack";

What kind of record are you looking for? County Court Record, County Coroner’s Record, County Law Enforcement Record, other?

What is the timeframe that you believe the records were created? When Ruth went missing, When his skull was found, After his remains were found, etc.

Where would the documents have been created? Maricopa County or Pinal County. (You have a letter from Earl Ruth to Arizona officials about the end of February that may shed some light on this aspect?) (You may also have a letter from Erwin Ruth, to the Barkley's about this time that lays out his feelings regarding the activity of the Arizona officials.)

And lastly, what is your reasoning that leads you to believe any of these type documents might have been generated?

Good Luck,

Garry

P.S.
Don, The Adolph Ruth story seems to have disappeared from the Phoenix newspapers a couple of days after the remains were found and I have seen nothing of substance beyond that timeframe in the newspapers. I believe it was yesterday's news! (Now, watch Greg come up with something!!!)
Post Reply