The LDM

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Ronne
Greenhorn
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:57 pm

The LDM

Post by Ronne »

Hello all good Dutch Hunters
Living in LA is really not too far from the Supers. However, being disabled I cannot consider any on site travel. I have but one question that I perhaps see answered many times. But I cannot focus on the one I am looking for. It is possible of course that the LDM has been found and ‘wiped out’. Now, I would like to know just exactly how can we tell which of the many mines in the Supers is the LDM? What can we develop that is positive proof of a certain mine being the LDM? I am very much an amateur but I found most of the posts on this site to be fascinating, at least for me. Might I have some opinions? Something that I can look back at and say – it has been found and this mine is it! A while back some of you sent me quite a few pictures which I have kept safely in another file, but still I wonder. In many days gone by I have heard such things as actual refined gold bars held in the LDM. Ridiculous I guess?
Thanks Much
Ronne
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Oroblanco
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Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
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Re: The LDM <LONG reply, extra coffee alert>

Post by Oroblanco »

Ronne wrote
Hello all good Dutch Hunters
Living in LA is really not too far from the Supers. However, being disabled I cannot consider any on site travel. I have but one question that I perhaps see answered many times. But I cannot focus on the one I am looking for. It is possible of course that the LDM has been found and ‘wiped out’. Now, I would like to know just exactly how can we tell which of the many mines in the Supers is the LDM? What can we develop that is positive proof of a certain mine being the LDM? I am very much an amateur but I found most of the posts on this site to be fascinating, at least for me. Might I have some opinions? Something that I can look back at and say – it has been found and this mine is it! A while back some of you sent me quite a few pictures which I have kept safely in another file, but still I wonder. In many days gone by I have heard such things as actual refined gold bars held in the LDM. Ridiculous I guess?
Thanks Much
Ronne
HOLA amigo Ronne,
I am sure many folks will disagree with my statements, but here goes. First, my empathy for your disability, as this makes MOST of the many official "wilderness areas" utterly off-limits to you and everyone with disabilities. I don't mind that they made a few wilderness areas, but by the law they were SUPPOSED to always EXCLUDE any area which was mineralized and/or had notable human presences like roads, cabins etc but this didn't stop our government. I will get off the soapbox but we need to get the laws changed on wilderness areas so as to allow disabled people to enjoy these areas, and to allow small scale or "primitive" mining, which would certainly NOT do any harm but would allow many people to enjoy their pursuit of happiness.

Next - while it is POSSIBLE that the Lost Dutchman has indeed been found and "worked out" - it is extremely unlikely. The gold ore from beneath the deathbed of Jacob Waltz is unique - it does not match the ore from any known source, and the experts have stated this fact. If someone had found it, they would have good reason to get an expert in geology to do a comparison with one or more of the still-existing specimens from Waltz. No one has stepped forward with ore that matches, as far as I know.

I don't know how much you know about gold mines, but it is virtually impossible to extract ALL of the gold. Even if the mine had been mined very thoroughly, small bits of the original ore will remain to be found. This holds true in all gold or silver mines, or virtually all mines of all kinds for that matter. Then there is the factor of which type of gold vein or deposit it is. In Arizona most of the lode (hardrock) gold mines fall into three major categories (also true for most western states) based on how they were originally deposited by nature -

1 - those formed at shallow depths or near surface, known as "epithermal", and MOST lode gold mines in Arizona fall into this category. Epithermal deposits in Arizona can be very rich in gold, usually have tiny or almost invisible gold particles, tiny to microscopic quartz particles, colors of green, yellow green, dark orange etc. Such types of deposits are often very shallow in depth and will "pinch out" in a relatively short time if mined.

2 - those formed at medium depths, known as "mesothermal", quite a few gold mines in AZ are of this category. Mesothermal deposits can also be rich in gold but are more often not, with tiny to small gold particles and tiny to small host mineral particles (grain size) and quartz colors of a wide range from white to black. This type of deposit can be shallow but often runs to considerable depths.

3 - those formed deep within the earth, known as "hypothermal", only a handful of Arizona gold mines fall into this category. Hypothermal deposits are often very rich in gold, with large sized gold particles and large grain size of the host rock, in colors of yellow, white or even clear quartz. This rarest type (rarest in AZ) of deposit can be a vein or even of the rare "chimney" formation and often runs to extreme depths, over a mile in known cases. An example of this type of mine in Arizona is the famous Vulture mine, which had ore similar to Waltz's ore, but not identical. The gold from Waltz's ore is (in my personal opinion) of this type - Hypothermal - and would match the statements attributed to Jacob Waltz, when someone accused him of having found only a "pocket" of rich ore (as mentioned above, rich pockets of epithermal gold are fairly common in Arizona) Waltz supposedly denied it vehemently, saying that there was enough gold left still showing in his mine to "...make millionaires of twenty men" - stated when the price of gold was at $20.67 per ounce!

So it is unlikely (in my opinion) that anyone has found Waltz's mine, nor that anyone has mined it all out. Sorry to those many folks whom have claimed to have found the mine, and to those who claim that it was all worked out, but geology and mining facts won't agree with those claims.

I would not say that there are "many" mines in the Superstition Mountains of AZ - there are a handful to be sure, and to the north and east of the wilderness area there are a number of known mines. Some very rich gold mines were discovered in the Goldfield district which lays just north of the wilderness area in fact. The ores of all of these mines is known, and specimens from them are held by the University of Arizona (Geology Dept) so you could have comparisons done. The exact locations of (nearly) all of these mines is recorded by the BLM, so you can rule out all of them fairly easily.

Ronne wrote
hat can we develop that is positive proof of a certain mine being the LDM?
Forget all about all the so-called "clues" and maps, for earlier hunters of the Lost Dutchman mine have dug tunnels and sunk shafts at dozens of places in the Superstitions in spots that "fit" these supposed clues, maps etc often where there is not a trace of any gold. The ONLY evidence which can seal the case absolutely is a specimen of the ORE. Gold ore is a bit like fingerprints, in that the ore from any source is unlike the ore from any other source, and a geologist or assayer can tell the difference, as mentioned before there are specimens from all the known sources in AZ to compare it with. To prove it, we need a specimen of that gold ORE. It need not be a large specimen, but as small as a walnut or even smaller will do.

Ronne also wrote
In many days gone by I have heard such things as actual refined gold bars held in the LDM. Ridiculous I guess?
While it is possible that refined gold bars could exist somewhere hidden in the Superstition Mountains, hidden by Pancho Villa or who-knows-whom else, there is no reason to suppose that Jacob Waltz owned or hid any kind of gold bars or bullion. What he brought out and traded, sold and gave to his friends, and what was found beneath his deathbed, was gold ORE of a very rich character and fairly rare type (again, rare for Arizona, but not unknown).

I highly recommend you locate a copy of "Lode Gold Mines of Arizona" <you can download it FREE here>
http://www.azgs.az.gov/Mineral%20Scans/ ... 37_ocr.pdf
...or another good book on the basics of lode gold mines and geology. Anyone who wants to hunt for a lost mine of any kind ought to learn a bit of basic geology, it will prove VERY helpful to you. I started a thread on another forum for anyone new to the search for the Lost Dutchman with some of the basics and links, here is the link to the thread
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/ ... 735.0.html

I hope you will consider a trip to go and hunt for the Lost Dutchman gold mine, you know that we can "cheat" our disabilities by making use of animals for transport, and by having friends or partners to help us. Mules and horses can be rented (or at least the last I knew) or an outfitter can be hired to pack you in to the mountains on horseback for fairly reasonable prices, and it is an "adventure of a lifetime" that you will remember for the rest of your life, plus you will have a story you can tell your grandchildren. I am sure that some of our members here can recommend where to rent mules or horses and pack animals, or guides whom will pack you in for a fee. If anyone thinks this is "too easy" well heck, just tell them to read the story of Adolph Ruth!

Good luck and good hunting Ronne and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
SGnAZ
Greenhorn
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: San Tan Valley,AZ

Re: The LDM

Post by SGnAZ »

http://www.okcorrals.com/
This outfit can help you out.
Bandit
Part Timer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:34 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: The LDM

Post by Bandit »

Oroblanco,
In the three deposit catagories you listed; have you ever seen "Gold Halos or Auroras"
at the ground surface where the deposit is located? If so at what depth does a deposit occur to cause the Halo?

Bandit
Ronne
Greenhorn
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:57 pm

Re: The LDM

Post by Ronne »

Oroblanco – My Friend – I call you my friend because I was absolutely astounded at the valuable information you gave me on gold mining and the LDM. I guess you kind of set off a firestorm of activity from many other members. All of which added to my knowledge thanks to you. Yes, it is possible that I could hire a mule/horse and a guide to get into the Supers. And if it is at all possible for you to guide me in the future I would be very very happy, knowing that I would be traveling with someone that is not a ‘tourist guide’. I don’t know when this would take place. Certainly not in the summer, but who knows. Right now I wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your valuable information. You are indeed a professional when it comes to the LDM.
Thank you Oroblanco – Thank you – and I wish you and yours the Happiest Merriest Holiday Seasons ever.
And a special thank you to all of those other members that have contributed their posts. The knowledge I have gained is certainly appreciated more than you will ever know.
Thank you,
Ronne
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