Did Jacob Waltz lie about having covered up the mine?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
lazarus
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Post by lazarus »

Okay,

based on my interpretation of the 'Bark' map and the 'Bark-Ely' map, I suspect it easily could have been Reed who confronted Waltz. So help me here, guys... what was the deal with Reed?

Brad
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Post by zentull »

There was an article in the Historical society journal about Reed and his trip into the mountains with Clay Worst.

I believe Garry has some of the letters posted on his link for the Reed/Worst letters.

Bark and Ely appeared to want to work with Reed and he was trying to connect with Erwin Ruth at the same time. Clays thoughts on his trip in the mountains with Reed was interesting and Greg has audio of that discussion from the rendezvous.

It would be great to post a transcript of a talk like we had last fall, but Clay spoke for around 3 hours and at a page or less per minute and the ensuing few hours from Saturday morning at Joes "Campo Relaxo", we are talking about a lot of work......

Add in Bob Corbin on Saturday night and you have quite the book.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
lazarus
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Post by lazarus »

Three questions...

what did the elder Reed do for work? Where did he live? In other words, I'm recalling something about a 'Reed's Ranch', but I'm pretty tired, and I may be imagining...

Where was the Bark ranch located? (Where did he live?)

Where was the Bartlett ranch?
Joe Ribaudo
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John Reed.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Like Wayne, I have little faith in the John Reed story. To get the full story, you need to go to the link I provided and do a little reading. It's all very interesting and at one time Reed had Clay Worst pretty well convinced he was telling the truth.

Reed seemed to know a lot about the Superstition Mountains, but he could have gained that knowledge without ever setting foot in them. If you read all of the John Reed material, you will see why his story is doubtful.

IMHO, anyone researching the LDM who has not read the Bark Notes is getting the short end of the story stick, . Jim Bark was as close to that story as any writer has ever been. He was there before Waltz's death, and was an eye witness to Julia and Rhiney's first attempt to enter the mountains. Any story that attempts to add another person to that first attempt, starts out in doubt.....at least for me.

After that, he met and interviewed Julia and (especially) Rhiney, a number of times. It seems likely that he pieced together the true facts, or close to it. If you would like a copy of Bark's notes, send me an email with your address. To be honest, I am very surprised that you have not read them.

Once Clay got John Reed into the mountains, I believe it didn't take him long to see that John didn't have much to offer.......of any true value. I believe Clay's base camp, back then, was in Needle Canyon, a little north of Bluff Spring Mountain. When he got Reed into that area, he said nothing looked familiar. I think that may have been when Clay became disenchanted with the story.

John Reed's story places the LDM a long way from your area of interest, but you might find it interesting reading.

Joe
lazarus
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Post by lazarus »

Joe,
great stuff.

I've read portions of the Bark notes, but I don't own a copy, and I really doubt I have read more than maybe ten percent. I just always thought of them as somewhat of a distraction. The same goes for Lust for Gold. I read it in grade school and never thought much of it. Obviously, both are invaluable in historic reference alone. I kind of leaned toward the Blair theory.

Two points:
As you pointed out, "Once Clay got John Reed into the mountains, John didn't have much to offer....... When he got Reed into that area, he said nothing looked familiar."

This doesn't surprise me...
it does suggest that Reed was unfamiliar with the area. If Reed's story is credible, it suggests these confrontations might have occurred elsewhere.

What was Reed doing in there, and why would someone unfamiliar with an area think he has the authority to chase waltz away? Was Reed alone?
And of course... could Reed have actually been relating a story someone else had told him?

Joe,
I should probably read the Bark notes. I'll get back with you on the copies. That would be very generous of you. (by the way... I hear there are like six different versions... what's the deal?)

I'll also go check out Garry's link.

Brad
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Post by zentull »

Brad,

Clay thought that Reed became disconnected with the area after they worked their way in. Clay said Reed did have some familiarity with the mountains and couldn't rule out that he hadn't been there before.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
lazarus
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Post by lazarus »

Zen,
well we certainly can't rule it out. It wouldn't be the first time someone became disoriented in them thar hills.
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Post by lazarus »

Hey Joe,
that reminds me.

An article I wrote about the Catholic church has been archived by the Vatican. (no, I don't make any mention of bells). You are right though... they don't miss a lick.


Brad
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The Seventh Seal.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

[Joe,
I should probably read the Bark notes. I'll get back with you on the copies. That would be very generous of you. (by the way... I hear there are like six different versions... what's the deal?)]

Actually there are said to be seven versions. The first six are, for all intents and purposes, identical in content. Few, if any people have ever seen the seventh version, which are said to be Bark's actual notes.

Some have hinted they have seen the notes, but it may just be talk. If what we have heard is true, there are some extra details and clues in that seventh version.

I have not spoken to my sources concerning the San Jose Bell in quite some time. I believe we exchanged all of the material that was available. As I mentioned before, I am really glad you started me down that particular trail. I learned a great deal about a very interesting subject. The Brother, as well as the Historian that I was dealing with were very generous with their time and documents.

All of the information that I passed along to you was factual. As usual, my sources were as good as it gets. As you have mentioned in the past, it's something I have a knack for. That knack doesn't make me better than anyone else, just more persistent. If I state something as fact, you can usually take it to the bank.

I would be interested in reading your "Catholic" article. Congratulations!

Joe
Scott
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Filled mines

Post by Scott »

The filled in mines We have see are not filled completely. After time the fill settles some. There will be a space between the fill and the the mined rock after some time. Also the fill will have shards of pottery and fibers from woven /twisted lashing used to support the pots used to carry the fill. We have not yet found a "plug" in the adit of the mines made of logs . All were filled at least 20-25 feet using the original tailings and loose material from gravel bars of the Salt River . The openings were sealed very well.
I wonder if The Dutchman found a mine like we have and crawled into a very rich "tailing pile" that was used as fill? We found that almost all of the fill at the top of the shaft was from the flood plain and bars lower down site . We did not remove any more fill than required from the settled fill in the tunnel.But we started to see mineralization deeper in . The kicker is that no one would hand drill and blast that far unless the rewards were there . Maybe it was all dug by hand ? Seems they were following a ancient stream bed that was covered in lava and lifted.
Who ever filled in this mine , removed all the tailing- well tossed them over the side of the cliff ,and defaced the mining markers. There are several rock piles/ monuments about 1/2 to 3/4 miles away But I can not age the piles. Or claim they are original or related.
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Post by djui5 »

Scott,
What mine are you talking about?
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