Did Jacob Waltz lie about having covered up the mine?

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CLD
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Did Jacob Waltz lie about having covered up the mine?

Post by CLD »

I am just curious as to whether anyone else thinks that Jacob Waltz lied about the manner in which he concealed the mine and whether he actually even covered it up at all?
When he was eighty years old he was supposed to have cut and hauled Ironwood logs to the mine to seal it up. I have an ironwood log in my yard and that stuff is WAY too damn heavy for an eighty year old man to be working with, even in the two and one/half foot lengths that would have fit the mouth of the mine.
Not sure who this quote is attributed to but...,
"By the late 1880’s, Jacob Waltz was so advanced in age that protecting his mine from interlopers was hard for him to do. When he was eighty years old in 1890, he decided to hide the mine. He is said to have enlarged the shaft two-and-one-half feet all around and then left a ledge about six feet deep at the entrance of the mine. He then sawed timbers the right length to fit the ledge, hauled them to the mine, and worked all winter laying in "a solid crisscrossed pattern of those ironwood logs" up to a depth of about two feet from the top. He next filled the hole with dirt and then topped it with stones from the surrounding area."
I believe the "cover-up" story was just that. A story designed to direct the curious to look for something that was concealed because Jacob actually WAS to old to cover up the mine. I believe the story was a bluff. I believe the mine was actually never covered up and probably is still uncovered, albeit not obvious or in plain sight.
Any other opinions out there?
Anyone else want to weigh in?
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pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

of all the mines and miners i have known..not one has willingly filled in a hole once dug...
i find it sad that the only coverup has been in 100+ years of disinformation on the subject.
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Post by zentull »

Pippin squarely hit that nail on the head...........
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Joe Ribaudo
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Covered Up......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

As I understand it, the pit mine above Roger's Canyon was covered when it was found....pretty much as Holmes said Waltz described it. 8O

Not being a big fan of the Holmes story, that did cause me to re-think my opinion.

Take care,

Joe
CLD
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pit mine covered

Post by CLD »

Joe, I am just a bit curious as to who discovered that pit mine and reported that it was filled in the way Jacob said it was? Was it anyone who could have known the location of the "real" mine and so wanted, again, to mis-direct others to the wrong mine/location etc? How many witnesses were there? Did the witnesses actually see the timbers in the mine pre-extraction?
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CLD
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who is

Post by CLD »

Oh yeah...who is Wayne?
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zentull
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Post by zentull »

Problem is Joe there are a few variations on how it was covered. With the LDM you can always find a version that works.

Can't remember where it was but one has the area covered from a overhang that fell and made possible excavation of the covered pit impossible. Same as the Holmes version, but a nice little addition that probably fit someone elses LDM. It does fit the Apache story as the mine that wasn't covered as well.

The Petrasch version is different, but interesting as well. At times similar to Holmes, but disimilar as well.

Of course the Holmes story ties a number of stories together that have varied versions and some of which are certainly not true. Some of those variations are from either Dick or Brownie themselves. I think it is not as valid to use that story in pieces rather than as a whole.

I think even in the case of what you speak of Pippins words ring true.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Joe Ribaudo
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Open Mines.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Open pit mines are a huge problem in Arizona and Mexico. Those are just the two states who's problems I am familiar with.

Not long ago, our rope team rescued a young girl from the bottom of one. Her sister, who was driving, was not so lucky and died in the crash. Her body is what saved her sister.

You are correct in saying that pip hit the nail on the head. He did say "i have known" which exclude Jacob Waltz. I believe the Apache are said to have covered the Peralta mines, well before the time of Jacob Waltz's arrival.

In Treasure stories, the mines that are covered still have valuable resources that are unrecoverable for one reason or another. Someday, the finders hope to return......when conditions are more favorable. In the vast majority of cases, you, as well as pip, are correct.

The "eyewitness" that I talked to, said that in 1985 there was a small hole into the pit. Someone had already been inside to check it out. Although they wanted to go inside, they were told it was too dangerous.

He firmly believes that this is ore from that pit mine:

Image

I think there is more to that belief than a hunch. It seems unlikely that we will ever know for sure.

Take care,

Joe
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Ironwood or Ironhead???

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

CLD,

I must have missed something somewhere. I don't believe I have ever seen the "ironwood" part of the Jacob Waltz portion of the story. Course I never heard or read the LDM was an old barite mine on Coon Bluff either. What that means, is that there is a story to suit every man's imagination.

I believe that is the case with the Alkire story about the circumstances surrounding Jacob Waltz's death. Nice story, but too many things/details trying to be written by someone who lived too long after the facts. Allen had no clue that he was being fed false information or he made the whole thing up out of bits and pieces of stories that were floating about.

Coon Bluff or Julia's storeroom, it all boils down to today's facts supporting yesterday's stories. Don't mean it's not true, but it does mean you should look a little closer. If you choose to shortcut that closer look, you might be pinning all your hope on a worthless hole in the ground. Can't tell you how may times that has happened over the years.

Speaking for myself, I took the shortcut of going to the end of the Stone Map Trail, instead of following it from start to finish. Now the monuments we found have been destroyed and I really have no idea what I might have missed that was important. Too old to correct that mistake now.

Joe Ribaudo
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Did Jacob waltz lie about having covered up the mine.

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

the part of the legend that has bothered me is his cutting ironwood logs to cover his mine. If you believe he did this you would have to believe that the mine was at an elevation of less than 2500 ft. in elevation or, he would have to either skid or haul the logs uphill from where he cut them. If you believe that the mine was at an elevation more than 2500 ft. what limits would you place on the capabilities of an eighty year old man to accomplish this.

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CLD
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Jim

Post by CLD »

Jim, that is right in line with what I was thinking. I suppose he could have been using the term ironwood for mesquite.? Anyway...Feeling too old to protect the mine means feeling too old to laboriously and meticulously cover the mine...in my mind. Thanks
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Roger
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Did Waltz Bury the LDM????

Post by Roger »

I have been researching the LDM for about 15 yrs and have found several versions on how Waltz covered his mine. The Dick Holmes story from Waltz's deathbed describing Waltz's mine being in the bottom of a canyon with vertical shaft and about him covering the LDM in the manner Dick described does not fit with a large number of other clues on that topic.

Here's what I have sifted from a large number of clues and believe to be true:

1. Waltz made the statement that "he covered the mine in the same way the Mexicans covered it". From another clue it says that the Mexicans hid the mine by placing brush over the entrance to it.

2. Emilio (Peralta) Drigo wrote a letter to Erwin Ruth on 5/2/1932 from Chicago, Il, and said that "He (my uncle) told me about twenty five years ago he made journey to those Superstitions Mountains with my cousin and showed him the very place gold was removed. He said place had been shaken up or flooded some but he was sure he know the place".

Drigo's letter shows that his Uncle had been at the mine in 1907 and could see the place gold was taken - no mention of it being covered/hidden. If the LDM was open in 1907, Waltz certainly did not hide it in the 1870's/80's when he would have been physically able to do that work. And his own statements would indicate he simply covered the entrance to the mine with brush.

My personal opinion on this subject.

Roger
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Post by don »

Dont know if Waltz .....or the people who reported his words lied....or for that matter told the truth.There is a fair to middling chance that Waltz never said ANYTHING to ANYONE about ANYTHING. In fact that is the most likely scenario in my opinion
:lol:
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Post by djui5 »

Here is another thought. Ironwood is named Ironwood for a reason. It is the hardest wood known to man. Could you all imagine an 80 year old man cutting Ironwood by hand, enough to cover a mine 6' deep? :lol: :lol:

I like the brush over the mine thought of Rogers. Seems likely.
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lazarus
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Post by lazarus »

Hey guys,

It seems unlikely an elderly man would travel two and a half days (one direction) in order to cover an old shaft. Unless of course, he feared the ramifications in the event someone of authority were to discover he had been digging where he wasn't supposed to be.

I recall a story where Jacob related to someone that he had indeed been chased out of the location by someone who threatened to arrest him if he were caught again. If stories were circulating about a recently worked shaft being found in the area, Jacob just might have been paranoid enough to hike out there and retrieve anything that could tie him to the dig.

It is hardly a stretch however, to assume the area did not contain a plethora of stones and loose brush one man could easily gather in a day, or perhaps even hours. His primary goal would have been to destroy or remove any incriminating evidence. I'm not sure how important it would have been to fill the pit entirely.
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New Story.......Or Old?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

"I recall a story where Jacob related to someone that he had indeed been chased out of the location by someone who threatened to arrest him if he were caught again. If stories were circulating about a recently worked shaft being found in the area, Jacob just might have been paranoid enough to hike out there and retrieve anything that could tie him to the dig."

Was that a story that was in print, or just one that was told around the campfires?

Thanks,

Joe
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Post by lazarus »

Hi Joe,
good question. I'm pretty sure I read it, but I can't readily recall where. Since I brought it up, I'll see if I can chase it down.

I do remember coming away with the feeling that whoever it was, they had read him the riot act and apparently shook him up pretty good.

I'll get on it.

Brad
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King Of The Mountain.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

I do recall a story about Waltz being chased off the mountain, but it had nothing to do with any Sheriff.

I believe Clay Worst wrote about it in a letter to Erwin Ruth. As I recall, he was told the story by John Reed and it was Reed's father who chased Waltz off the mine. John was a young boy at the time and had traveled to the mine with his father.

Personally, having read all of those letters, Reed's as well as Clay Worst's, I don't put much credence in any of it. I believe, in the end, Clay also began to have his doubts. That seems to be reflected in his letters to Erwin Ruth.

I am going from memory here, which is none to good anymore, but you can find those letters here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... tchman.htm

I suspect any story that begins with "Waltz said....."

These are my personal beliefs, fuzzy memories and opinions and, as such, may be all wrong.

Clay Worst is the consummate gentleman, and has forgotten more about the LDM that I could possibly learn in three lifetimes. If I wanted to find out the story behind Waltz being chased off the mountain, I would ask him personally. I suspect, if the creek don't rise, he will be at this year's Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous. Like many others, I certainly hope so.

Joe
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Post by Cubfan64 »

When I saw your post Laz, the first thing that popped into my mind was the story John Reed told Erwin Ruth as well about his father and Waltz.

That story didn't say anything about threats of arresting or anything - just general threats and intimidation.
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Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I don't believe Clay is the source, but I may be wrong. I haven't had a chance to start poking around yet. I hope to get on it this morning.

As for the rendezvous, I don't currently plan on attending this year, so if I'm going to contact Clay, I'll need to find another way to go about it.

As I recall, Jacob implied the person who chased him off was a fed.


Brad
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Post by Cubfan64 »

lazarus wrote:Joe,

I don't believe Clay is the source, but I may be wrong. I haven't had a chance to start poking around yet. I hope to get on it this morning.

As for the rendezvous, I don't currently plan on attending this year, so if I'm going to contact Clay, I'll need to find another way to go about it.

As I recall, Jacob implied the person who chased him off was a fed.

Brad
Interesting - if you come across the specifics of the story, that would be an interesting discussion. It would imply a number of things.
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John Reed = His Father Ran Waltz From the LDM??

Post by Roger »

There is a document from Oct 2, 1932, prepared by Sims Ely that summarizes his conservation with John Reed during a meeting they had at the St. Louis train station. The footnotes were done by John Reed. I have posted the 3 pages of this letter in the Roger's Album of the photo section of the Forum.

John claims that his Father ran Waltz off the mine twice - both times being in 1888. That would have been 11 years before Waltz died in 1891, but raises a big question as to Waltz going back to the mine at that late date. Bark's Notes (page 18 - Probert Version) says that Waltz said:

"Old Jake said that he had been to the mine but once since he left it and came to Phoenix. That was 14 years after he had walled up the tunnel, and that everything was just as he had left it. He did not disturb anything."

How could John Reed's Father have chased Waltz from the mine twice when Waltz said that he had only been back to it once since Wieser's death. And the time frame is very suspect.

Food for thought.

Roger
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Correction to Posting on John Reed and Waltz

Post by Roger »

I made a typo in the above posting which originally reads:

"John claims that his Father ran Waltz off the mine twice - both times being in 1888."

Meant to say:

"John claims that his Father ran Waltz off the mine twice - both times being in or after 1888."

Sorry about that.

Roger
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Post by lazarus »

The Reed story does sound strikingly similar, although my version was related by Waltz, rather than Reed or his son. Interesting, but I'm not sure it's the other half of the same story.

The Reed version implies Reed knew precisely where the mine was located. What's the rub? Shame on me, but I have never read Bark's notes. Why would Reed feel compelled to chase off Waltz? What authority did Reed have over this location?

I have be poring over documents all morning, but have yet to uncover what I'm looking for. I'm about to get sideways on myself, as I'm supposed to be doing prep for an article about the history of Olvera Street in downtown Los Angeles (El Pueblo de Los Angeles). I'm leaving for L.A. either tonight or tomorrow morning, so if I know what's good for me, I probably won't have much more time to spend in this til at least Monday or Tuesday.
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Post by zentull »

If it is the Reed story I put little stock in it after Clays discussion of his adventures with John Reed.

Some of the early accounts do mention Waltz covering the mine, but it was in a similar fashion to the way the previous owners had. In that case the material to cover the opening would have been in place already.

Other accounts state that the mine was in such a location that it needed cleared on each trip.

Why Waltz would conceal the mine in the way that Holmes accounts for is beyond me. As he got older he actually made it too difficult to re open the mine.

Herman Petrasch was a good source for the physical description of the mine area and oddly enough the mine being covered wasn't part of his tale in the sense we discuss. However, Hermans description makes sense of the story lines and how things played out.

My opinion is it was covered and well hidden from the naked eye, but not sealed up as some folks believe.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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