Location of Julia Thomas Business 1891

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Ozarker
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Alkire Manuscripts

Post by Ozarker »

(#51)

03-22-2009, 12:24 PM
Qzarker
Subject: Alkire Manuscripts

Hello Joe:

Thanks for the history on Frank and Asenath.

I have not read "The Little Lady of the Triangle Bar", but have seen excerpts and reviews.

In his bibliography, Dr Glover refers to an unpublished manuscript by Frank Alkire dated 1940 and entitled "A Road to Yesterday". This is a 22-page manuscript that, at the time of Dr Glover's book research, was located in the Archival Collection of the Phoenix Museum of History. It's possible the Waltz account is in this manuscript, but that's only a guess. If so, it does appear to be written almost 50 years after Waltz's death, although it could also be that the account was written long before then and simply included in the document at this later date.

Larry
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Adobe Room....

Post by Ozarker »

(#52)

03-22-2009, 02:36 PM
Joe_Ribaudo
Subject: Adobe Room....

Larry,

In reading Dr. Glover's account, I notice that he writes: "Waltz was in a small adobe room behind the parlor itself." I will check out "Road to Yesterday" and see what Frank actually said.....assuming he said anything.

In looking at the Sanbourn Fire Map, I notice some small buildings in the yard behind Julia's shop. They are not directly behind the shop, but close enough to be something that could be included in her lease. The small building to the left of "YARD", looks like a good match for the story.

The fact that these stories came through Bertie Roberts gives them a great deal of reliability. That does not mean her source is unassailable but, in my opinion, she personally is.

Waltz being in the back of the shop, does not seem likely. Out behind the shop makes a lot more sense.

Take care,

Joe
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Outhouses

Post by Ozarker »

(#53)

03-22-2009, 04:40 PM
Ozarker
Subject: Outhouses

Hello Joe:

Each of the store owners in the Capitol Building (the restaurant, saloon, cigar shop, and barber/baths) had community privileges to the yard and the outbuildings in the rear which contained the outhouse and well, and later on a boiler and wood shed. From a review of the leases, it appears the community outhouse was in use up until the year 1900, although by that time, the store which Julia had occupied had erected a party wall separating their establishment, and had installed their own private privy.

Larry
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Outhouse.....

Post by Ozarker »

(#54)

03-22-2009, 04:58 PM
Joe_Ribaudo
Subject: Outhouse.....

Larry,

I can see where the bldg. I was talking about could be an outhouse. It's very small.

Thanks for your reply.

Take care,

Joe
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Frank Alkire's Second Child

Post by Ozarker »

(#55)

03-22-2009, 09:33 PM
Novice
Subject: Frank Alkire's Second Child

Joe.

You wrote:
For the record, George Copes Alkire was that second child. He was born May 20, 1903.
George was actually the 4th child. There were two daughter's born between Josiah (Jay) and George. Asenath (2nd), Ruby (3rd). Both died young.

The child's death referred to in "The Taming of the Salt" is Asenath.

She was Born Oct 20, 1892, and died Apr 16, 1893 in Arizona. She is buried in St. Louis and we have visited her grave along with Frank's parents and two brother's who died young.

This seems to be the time period (1893) when the family moved from New River to Phoenix. It also seems to coincide with the founding of Frank and George's Mercantile business. Also the Great Maricopa Register entries for Frank support this timeline.

We are trying to research the New River Ranch but it may have been only an Alkire memory by 1903.

Garry
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Correct....

Post by Ozarker »

(#56)

03-22-2009, 10:40 PM
Joe_Ribaudo
Subject: Correct....

Garry,

You are, of course, correct.

The 1900 Census shows two children living in the home. Josieh, age 9 and Ruth, age 1. The residence is listed as: Phoenix City (North of Washington, East of Center St.).........

I agree with your timeline for the family moving into Phoenix, but this census says they were there in 1900. Frank's occupation was listed as Merchant .

Thanks for the correction.

Take care,

Joe
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Was He There.....

Post by Ozarker »

(#57)

03-25-2009, 02:25 PM
Joe_Ribaudo
Subject: Was He There.....

All,

In the "late fall" of 1891, Frank sent Asenath to California to be with family during her pregnancy. That would be after Waltz's death, probably in early to mid-December. Prior to that, he was very busy on the ranch. There was the rodeo to prepare for and they were having a very hard time with the cattle. Drought had sickened and killed many of his herd, and the rest were getting down to skin and bones. He was a busy man.

That is not to say he couldn't have been in Phoenix at that particular time, just that it would have been hard for him to get away. The ranch was around forty miles from Phoenix, and the road wasn't the best. I believe there is something in Frank's hand stating he was there when Waltz died, but I would like to see it for myself.

I am at our store, so don't take what I have just written to the bank. I think it's right.

Joe Ribaudo
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Fall of 1891

Post by Ozarker »

(# Fifty-eight)

03-26-2009, 05:59 AM
Novice
Subject: Fall of 1891

Joe,

I'm not able to identify your reference (I have probably never seen it?) but the date "in the late fall of 1891, Frank sent Asenath to California to be with family during her pregnancy" does not match with the birth of the Frank and Asenath's first child Josiah.

The death certificate (the image can be viewed) of Josiah (Jay) Alkire gives a birth date of January 28, 1891 in California. The late fall of 1890 would appear to be a much better match?

Is your source "The Little Lady of the Triangle Bar", Journal of Arizona History (1974). If so, I have not seen that in its entirety. I'm not even sure it includes Frank's complete manuscript?

If you could include the surrounding text from your reference it might become clearer.

There is a story of Frank and Asenath taking Josiah to Mexico to buy horses. Although there is nothing that dates this event it sounds much closer to the Waltz death timeframe.

Garry
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Late Fall.....

Post by Ozarker »

(#59)

03-26-2009, 08:07 AM
Joe_Ribaudo
Subject: Late Fall......

Garry,

You are correct. It was the "late fall" of 1890. My source is Frank's "....Little Lady...." manuscript. Should have waited until I was home to make that post.

I have a copy of the hand written manuscript, as well as a typewritten copy.

Thanks for the corrections.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Ozarker »

(#60)

Yesterday [Actual Date Unknown], 02:06 PM
Joe_Ribaudo

Garry, Larry, Curly and Moe,

Frank Alkire did a lot of writing. I have two of the manuscripts which have been mentioned as possibly mentioning Jacob Waltz and the circumstances surrounding his death. In total I have four of the many Alkire manuscripts. He does not mention Jacob Waltz or Julia Thomas in any of them.

They are nowhere to be found in "The Little Lady of the Triangle Bar", "A Road Of Yesterday", "Pioneer Business Firms Of Phoenix, Arizona" or "A Century and a Half Mystery Solved". I believe most of these were written around 1940, well after the LDM and Jacob Waltz were fairly well known locally and nationally. They seemed to be the most likely manuscripts to have such a story.

The "deathbed story", as it has been told, is just too juicy for Frank to have completely fanned. That would be especially true if he had any personal knowledge of the affair. You need to read his work to fully understand what I am talking about here. Frank wrote in a very colorful manner. He told the stories as he lived them.......close to the earth.

Unless someone finds something that is written in Frank Alkire's hand, I will file the tale in the fictional category. These kinds of stories have a way of creating a life of their own.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Ozarker »

REPOST OF THREAD ENDS HERE
Joe Ribaudo
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True History......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Larry,

Good job. It doesn't look like Peter's site will be coming back anytime soon so this Forum is, once again, the very best place to discuss all things Dutchman. That's a shame as they had a very good handle on things....for the most part. It's anyone guess as to how many posts will be lost this time around.

This whole topic is meant to provide authentication for where Waltz died, and more importantly, to see if the "Frank Alkire" Waltz death story is possibly true.

At this time, I can find no documentation in the Frank Alkire Collection from the Historical Society in Tucson which mentions Jacob Waltz, Julia Thomas or any of the people pertinent to the story. I am under the impression that someone, other than Frank Alkire, made up the story out of whole cloth and it has been "fleshed-out" by subsequent writers over the years.

Eventually the story was conveyed to Bertie Roberts and through her to a number of modern-day authors. She, as well as they, thought the story was from a credible source. It's not the first time that such a thing has happened in the treasure tale world. Right people, right era, (mostly) right circumstances, wrong details.

Many of the old time treasure hunters would hear a good story and place themselves in it. It's the "Hell, I Was There" syndrome. The quote is from Elmer Keith. Actually.......he was there. :wink:

This has been a really good story, told by some of the best people in the Dutch hunting business. As you can see, it took some really serious digging to prove it false. I don't fault any of them, except the person who made it up in the first place. I believe that was Robert Joseph Allen and I don't have any problem giving that personal opinion about a man who's book is full of fiction, even though he can no longer defend himself.

I find no joy in us proving this story to be false. Perhaps someone will prove us wrong by finding the story in Frank Alkire's own handwriting, but I have serious doubts.

Once again, you (as well as Garry) are proving yourselves to be among the best people alive at researching the truth of the details surrounding the LDM.

Kudo's,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Location of Julia Thomas Business 1891

Post by zentull »

I added a number of exterior photos of the early store location as it looks today. I may the only guy at work who gets excited to run around that section of town all day. I was working from Jackson street south to Lincoln and gave Cooperstown a rest and decided to hit Majerles. Just goes to show how productive you can be while on lunch break!
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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Re: Location of Julia Thomas Business 1891

Post by novice »

Larry Hannah has recently posted some additional information on the Julia Thomas business locations in the 1885 to 1892 timeframe on DesertUSA.

Larry has addressed the four business locations where Julia Thomas was involved, in some capacity, from about the time of Julia's arrival in Phoenix (1885) until the sale of her business in July 1892.

Then Julia went hunting for a lost mine. :wink:

A review of the topic on this forum was interesting to me and refreshed my memory on several items that I had forgotten. It was well worth rereading!

Emil and Julia conducted their third business on the north side of Washinton Street in Block 20 from April 1887 until May 1891 (4 years). The other locations have all been pinpointed and perhaps this location can also be refined. It is a big chunk of the timeline.

Garry
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Re: Location of Julia Thomas Business 1891

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bump!

This topic will help folks get a better idea of the research that was being done by a few people.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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