Hohokam and Salado,Maya,Toltec and Aztec

Somehiker · Post by **Somehiker** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:01 pm

Here we go---lets have some serious speculation in this thread.
I will post a portion of a photo from my last trip into the Superstitions that I have not previously shared.I cannot post the entire photo because it might give clues to it's location.I suspect that the symbol in the photo,which protrudes from the rock about 1/2 inch is a glyph.A wide horizontal strip of the rock is artificially flat,and the symbol lies approximately in the center and directly overhead of where you enter a cave with a mineshaft.I have published two photos of the interior of the cave in my album on this site that display other oddities,or at least features which seem to indicate something out of the ordinary.I could be wrong,of course,and this may be another natural erosional trick of nature,but I am poring through pages of Mayan glyphs this evening looking for a translation,just in case it's real.

Regards:SH

PS: I will open a new album for these pics

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:31 pm

so is this image carved? or pecked? paint?

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:42 pm

Sh,

I can't say for sure at this point. It doesn't look like any symbol I've seen in photos or in person. However, I often stress the importance of understanding that even modern graffiti, even the gang related stuff, can tell us a great deal about the culture of those who left it. Obviously, somebody was attempting to express some thought, but it's hard to tell who or when.

I am reminded of the WW2 era 'Kilroy Was Here'. It wasn't ancient, but has proven to be a priceless statement on the people and the period. In the sixties, it was the 'peace sign'. The 'Happy-Face' had it's moment in the sun during the seventies.

If I'm looking to find an old mine from scratch, I can start from outside the range, and follow the markers right to the mine, but the markers are often so subtle as to go completely un-noticed by the untrained eye. Once you become aware of the markers, they stand out like a sore thumb. They become very easy to follow.

Glyphs are different. More complex, and thus more open to conjecture. It's almost like abstract art...

Laz

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:45 pm

i have seen rock art similar...the image was a 'stylized' deer or pronghorn...

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:51 pm

Pip,

wow!
I see it now, but I've never seen it before. It does look like a longhorn.
Who do you think left it?

By the way, has anyone seen any mule deer in the Supes lately? I have not.

Laz

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:06 pm

i have several texts that claim the superstitions were Hohokam territory...that was probably prior to Athabaskan arrival...also, mimbres people were in the area, and the last (nobody knows, so call it anasazi)
i have never seen an apache rock art site...i would love imput on any locations...

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:18 pm

i found this site...has the exact pic i was thinking about...the header of his page has the photo...

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bclee/ro ... ckart.html

we need to know how the art was applied to the rock to really get a feel for who made it...

Somehiker · Post by **Somehiker** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:26 pm

The object does protrude about a half inch from the surrounding surface.It is part of a flat "panel" of sorts unlike the surrounding rock which is rough.The panel is set back a few inches beneath the overhanging rock formation and in the larger view,seems to bear other markings less distinct.This particular detail is much more clear in lesser magnification,with more clearly defined edges.I will definitely aim to get some rubbings next trip,as well as more and better photos.This is from the only photo that I have of the exterior,as my last set of batteries died at this time.I had burned them up shooting video sequences and flash pics inside.The glyph,if that is what it is, is a combination of three,possibly four elements which have been clustered to form a word or phrase.That is what I am presently trying to translate.I will sketch and scan what it is that I think I see here.

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:37 pm

the image being 'raised above the surrounding surface....doesn't point to a local doing the work...
i would like to see some rubbings...or a photo taken at night...on the oblique...
good find...

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:10 pm

Hm...

the photo at the link seems to suggest a group of sixty animals. Again, I'm not sure what kind of animal. Joe? Pip? Anyone?

Laz

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:19 pm

By the way,

the animals appear to have been pursued by a wolf along an animal trail at twilight. This might suggest these guys were also following the animal trail, which of course, would only make sense. There appear to be multiple types of animals in the herd they are following.

The small guy beneath the boxes indicates the type of animal. The big square box with a tiny head counts as twenty.

Laz

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:30 pm

By the way,
I'm only guessing on this. For all I know, the boxes mean bigfoot ate their baby.

However, the box usually indicates an amount. Usually, that amount is twenty. So we'll just say' box with tiny head equals (x),' and x usually adds up to twenty. Make any sense?

Laz

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:36 pm

Um,
so then...

if the animal depicted in SomeHiker's photo is a pronghorn, or whatnot, the observer saw (X) amount of them. How many (X) represents is hard to say, although I'm sticking with twenty.

Laz

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:06 pm

I have found 'raised' work before, done by Spanish or Mexicans.

However, I am aware of massive 'reliefs' carved by someone familiar with the complexities of Mayan or Aztec culture. The reliefs are much more detailed, and were carved to play heavily upon shadows. In the cooler months, they appear to feature the guy in the head-dress. During the warmer hours and months, he looks much more like a skull. I may be imagining, but either way, I get the message.

Laz

Somehiker · Post by **Somehiker** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:09 pm

Heh,alright now settle down Laz.I thought that we agreed not to talk about big hairy guys with smelly feet.Sides,he's got his own thread...Bigfoot I mean.

I think that at the most,this would be a single word or a short sentence/phrase.It's about seven feet above ground level directly below,which would make it quite the project if someone just wanted to count animals walking past.I know a little bit about maya glyphs,not a lot but just enough to make me want to check this out.It may be not as finely carved as the ones in the mayan ruins,but then again if this was made by someone who knew the language,then he was a long ways away from the comforts and amenities of home.It could have also been made by someone who knew the language but wasn't as good a craftsman.Whoever carved it though,didn't do it for me or you.
For some reason the pictures as posted are much darker and grainier than what I have,so I took the liberty of lightening and sharpening as well as adding some contrast.It helps a bit.
Regards:SH.

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:16 pm

i have heard a lot of weird things in the supe's...no bigfoots...

it is curious the image is carved...sure suggests a mesoamerican...
go back and survey the area around the carving...pottery shards...pieces of the tool used to carve that hard rock...ya might have to sit an just stare at gravel for a while...

i would like to see more detail if you take rubbings...or just draw what you think is contained in the glyph...something in my weak brain tells me a figures inside a rectangle is a name( that could be the egyptians duh.)...i can check on that one in a few days...

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:22 pm

SomeHiker,

I have no idea what your glyph is trying to say... all my jabber was about the photo in the link.

All I can tell by yours is that the box shaped body is not the work of a bad artist. It's like the shape of a stop sign or yield sign. The box does not represent the shape of the body... it represents a number.

Brad

Somehiker · Post by **Somehiker** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:32 pm

Heading for bed.Post away and I'll check whats there in the morning.I'm EDS time and I gotta get up at 4:30 am.Just google Maya Glyphs.1st site is a pretty good one.I've run outta time tonight.It has to be pieced together to translate,because each piece is part of the package.A ship and a car both have an engine,but a ship has a bow and a car has a bumper,etc---that sort of thing.
Regards:SH.

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:36 pm

Pip,

good advise...

If you were there, where would you have sat, and what might you have been doing while sitting there? With that in mind, what might still be somewhere within the radius? Something you were working on that might have broken, perhaps?

Laz

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:33 pm

been in arizona too long...i sit in the shade...the area directly below the image would be the first place i looked careful...carving rock is difficult...even now with steel tools...there will be chips of the tools used...
everyone drinks...so looking for old beer bottles is not a bad idea...
(yes, prehistoric peoples used fermented beverages)... shards, buttons and bones...any place large enough to crawl inside has been lived in...any flat areas...or bumps in flat areas...people cook...so charcoal remains are a great indicator of occupation...
a favorite for archaeologists are rats nests...rats love shiny objects...you will also find pottery shards in rats nests...they love em...save you a lot of digging looking at the garbage in a rats nest...

Somehiker · Post by **Somehiker** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:11 am

Think---Context.And I have added a pic of the right hand end of the panel.I did not spend a lot of time here as it was mid-afternoon,it was very hot and when I climbed up here through the thick brush it was only because it looked like a nice shady spot to take a break.I could only see the overhang from the bottom of the canyon,not the cave.It was shady but it wasn't at all cooler inside.No cans,no bottles and no modern garbage in or around the cave.There are no smoke stains or fire pits inside,yet it would have been quite comfortable to live in.There may be an eroded trail from the bottom,but it is now all brush covered.
Regards:SH.

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:39 am

" think contex"
there is no context...other than you found something somewhere.
untill you mentioned the cave that should have been near the image...

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/med/

haven't had enough coffee to use my brain today.

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:03 am

Pip,

I am still working on coffee myself. I'm not at all ready to think.
However, if you look at the glyph upside down, it kind of looks like an old Bread delivery truck with a flat tire.

Hey, maybe that's the answer. He blew a tire and the truck flipped, and he was waiting in the cave for the tow truck to arrive.

Just a theory, of course.

I'll come up with something better once the coffee kicks in...

Laz

pippinwhitepaws · Post by **pippinwhitepaws** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:23 am

i wrote an entire post on the topic...poof...no post...i need more coffee...

if it is mesoamerican...it looks like a date...7th day of zul or something...

i have a friend i will try to contact today...he does glyphs.

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:40 am

7th day of Zul?

I'm way, way, way off on this one.
I'm still seeing a number, but not seven.

Zul?
I need to go back and do more homework.
And more coffee, of course.

Laz

Lost Dutchman Goldmine

Hohokam and Salado,Maya,Toltec and Aztec

Hohokam and Salado,Maya,Toltec and Aztec

glyph

Glyphs

60

Clarification

X

Zul