Hohokam and Salado,Maya,Toltec and Aztec

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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zentull
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Post by zentull »

Since we are a bit all over on this one I am hoping someone has an answer or can speculate on this:

It is a Jewish custom to place stones or rocks on a grave in remembrance to show you have visited. It is very common place in Israel. However I have noticed it is very prominent at several Apache cemeteries as well. Is it a custom that was adapted or has a different symbolic gesture than the Jewish custom? Doesn't seem like there would be very many Native Americans embracing Judaism.
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Joe Ribaudo
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New Apache.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

I don't believe the Apache ever marked a grave as you have described. That may be something new, but when they were living free and not on the reservation, they did not mark graves. They did not want to remember a person's death. They did not visit graves.

Stones may have been used to cover the body, but I don't think they were ever used to mark a grave.

You should ask Aurum at the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

Visit the White Mountain cemetery and it is everywhere. It is just a stone, usually balanced on the gravestone. I never had really put it together and thought of it and it came to mind just recently.

I am quite sure it is similar in usage as a remembrance or visitor stone, but just wondered how it came to be custom for some Native Americans.
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Stones.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

There are stones that are important in Apache ceremonies and they are believed to contain Power. Those stones would be a blue one and a white one. I will have mine, given to me by a friend, at the Rendezvous.

The Apache have always used stones in meaningful ways. A famous story was when Eskiminzin placed a stone on the ground near General Howard and said: "As long as that stone lasts, no more campaigns shall be made by my people. We have placed it there in the presence of General Howard and before all these people, as a symbol that a new world has opened for us all."

We have discussed stones left on trails to speak to other Apaches as they traveled, somewhere on this Forum.

It will be interesting to hear what Matthew has to say about the grave stones.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Cultures......

Post by Somehiker »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:SH,

"The last culture that occupied the area,the Salado,are the focus of my attention for the most part."

Could you clarify what you mean by "culture"?

Thanks in advance,

Joe
Unusual question,Joe,since "culture" is a common word with a well known definition.I would guess,that in this case,what you are referring to is the enigma that the "Salado" represent.For that question,anything that I can produce is pure speculation,based on bits and pieces such as the drawings of the Tonto Basin? ruins in Bourke's diaries,for example.

Regards:SH.
Ozarker
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In Search of Video

Post by Ozarker »

Hello All:

A couple of posts back, Joe mentioned blue and white stones used by the Apache. One version about their use of such stones (as it relates to the Apache cave of gold/Lost Dutchman Mine) can be seen at the link at the end of this post.

This is a video of the old “In Search of...” sereis narrated by Leonard Nimoy. It is in three parts. Part II deals with the aforementioned stones.

There are also personal appearances by Pat Bowle, Robert Blair, Jerry Crader, Jay Heston, Glenn Magill, and Milton Rose (hope I spelled all those right). The Apache medicine man that gives the version of the use of the stones is Phillip Cassadore.

One other interesting item is the segment on Adolph Ruth. Try using your pause button during the video to take a closer look at the map in the actor’s hand.

[/url]http://video.aol.com/video-search/query ... 20mine[url]


Enjoy.

Ozarker[/url]
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Revised Link

Post by Ozarker »

Hello All:

Sorry about that. Here's the link again:

http://video.aol.com/video-search/query ... man%20mine
zentull
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Post by zentull »

Ozarker,

thanks for the link. I had forgotten about that episode. I don't know what amused me more: Robert Blairs enormous sunglasses or Magills dress shoes with black socks.......

In Search Of, always did try to come off professional and it is one of the better LDM documentaries still.

Does anyone know what happened to Magills 49th expedition film? I know he was an Honorary director ofthe Museum or Historical Society at one time, but I don't believe his stuff was left to them.
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Post by djui5 »

Zentull asked me to post this for him :)

Image
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Post by Somehiker »

Randy:
Any information as to the setting that these were found in ?Some of the carvings appear to be cut into limestone.Wayne had mentioned finding carvings in rock out in the range.Are these representative ?

Regards:SH
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Post by Somehiker »

Similar to the cross featured in the last photo added to the "odds" album.

Regards:SH.
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Post by Somehiker »

Randy:
How can I post a photo within the message ?

Regards:SH.
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Post by djui5 »

I have no idea where they are from :)

To post a photo in a message you need to upload the photo to imageshack.us
Then copy the "hotlink for forums 1" text and insert it into your post. You'll want to have the "include details" unchecked. Also, only put the link with the [ img ] tags around it. You can delete the "url" portion of the link as it send a person to imageshack if they click on the picture. Hope that makes sense.
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Oroblanco
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tag post

Post by Oroblanco »

Tag post please ignore :mrgreen:

Very interesting photos amigo, BTW
Oroblanco
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new pics added

Post by Somehiker »

I have added a few pics and some stills from a short vid that I shot last Oct. to the odds album.Hope you like them cause it was a shin bruisin,back breaking,snake dodgin and all round death defyin chore to get them.... :roll: :lol: 8O 8O 8O

Regards:SH

PS:MY misc. album has a few new ones as well.A new overview of Coronado Mesa especially for Klondike has been added.

Regards:SH
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Post by Somehiker »

pps:the new Coronado Mesa pic is in the "untitled" album....sorry.

SH.
Joe Ribaudo
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Par For The Course......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

SH,

Nice pictures! Your description of the trials and tribulations you went through to get them, pretty much describes a lot of places in the Superstitions. :lol:

Hope you can make it to the Rendezvous again.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Somehiker »

Thanks Joe:
Weren't nothin...really. :wink: the bumps and scrapes help to keep me on my toes when I'm out there.Damage to one's ego can be worse,of course,ranking only slightly below injury to the old swizzel stick. 8O
I would love to be there for the rendezvous but a family gathering may make me a no show this year.I really did enjoy your hospitality last year and look forward to my next attendance. The opportunity to drag Paul over a few rocks and give him a firsthand look was a treat as well. :P Maybe I can add a couple more victims to the hit list next time I'm down.

Regards:SH
Joe Ribaudo
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No Shows........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

SH,

I understand completely. Family comes first, or should, with everyone. That being said, you will be missed and we will look forward to seeing you next year.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
Another commitment that is keeping me busy right now and for some time to come.(newest pic in my misc album)There is already one facility in Maricopa and more on the way.So next time you see one of these,or flick that AC switch,you can think of me.
Also have two more 2044's on the go for the US military.

Regards:SH
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