moral behavior & treasure hunting

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine

do you believe destroying sensitive ecological zones appropriate behavior to "discover" the dutchman?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:09 pm

yes
4
50%
no
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

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critter
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No worries

Post by critter »

I'm actually surprised that anyone would answer "yes" to this question. Let us not forget that the Dutchman's Mine itself is a sensitive ecological site. I would also hope that anyone contributing to this site, or actually endeavoring to search for this location, would only do so in an effort to preserve its heritage for every American.

Like Laz, I too pack light and am familiar with the rituals of wilderness exposure of all kinds. I tend to carry a bit more than Laz, and sometimes even a bit of Laz's stuff, but I stick to the basics and a few customised items to get through. The solar powered fan is handy for positive ventilation purposes, a good headlamp, and more than one flashlight are nice too for those subterranean portions. Of course, I always like to keep the place tidy so I take out more than I take in, that's just good housekeeping and responsible behavior.

Apart from that and a bit of common sense, I'm sure the curious can have an enjoyable time looking for the D. And who knows who or what you may run across on the way.

Good on 'ya,

Critter
Knun
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You missed a bit

Post by Knun »

Randy,

Don't forget to look at the Gore's. They make Prescott look like a boy scout. The old man was quite a piece of work.

If PWP asked this question of Gore's old man the answer would be something....but he had bigger fish to fry than just a small mountain range and what was in it.
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Re: You missed a bit

Post by djui5 »

Knun wrote:Randy,

Don't forget to look at the Gore's.
:D
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Post by Knun »

Busted :P
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

confession: my mother passed. my father is going to scatter her ashes among those mountains.
i have a personal interest in keeping the mountains clean.

sorry, i interupted the site. i hope you all find what your seeking.

-30-
Knun
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What the?

Post by Knun »

Critter,

I don't understand why you would think it to be a problem for this poll to reflect a split consesus as it has.

Who decided that the Ducthman site was a "sensitive ecological site"? You? How does a mine site warp into an ecological site?

In fact the original question was misleading towards the negative. Who decided the Superstitions are a "sensitive ecological site"? The question was framed as though this is a well known fact. Which is not true.

One thing I could never understand....the areas that are sensitive or designated as wilderness...why do people go there that are so worried about the enviornment? If you think it is a fact that it is a sensitive area why would you go there? Is that designation simply for others?

If your so concerned why enter the area since you are abusing the sensitive locale in which a boot print or turd could ruin that place for a generation?
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Re: What the?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Knun wrote:Critter,

I don't understand

One thing I could never understand....?
yes..you made that clear.
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Critter

Post by lazarus »

critter,

you are a saint in a room full of bullfrogs.

Of course, one should always, always, always feel obligated to protect the wilderness. Those of you who answered yes need a reality check.

My footprints leave no deeper ruts than those left by wild horses. If I dig a hole the size of a coffee can, I fill it before I leave. There is never a good reason to destroy the wilderness.

Some of you apparently still think God intended the wilderness as a big playground for men who can't behave. It's really bad science.

Laz
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Knun

Post by lazarus »

Knun,

I'm sorry, but I have lost all respect for you. I have to agree with pip. You are indeed, a senseless idiot.

Shame on you, shit for brains.

Brad
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Apology

Post by lazarus »

Apology,

my last post was supposed to be under !st. Amendment and I accidentally posted here. I am sorry, and I will ask the webmaster to remove it. I will then repost it in the proper location.

Again, I apologize for the inappropriate language, which I reserve for elsewhere.

Laz
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

You tend to pitch a big tent, but personally I find nothing wrong with anything I have observed you doing out there. You are thoughtful and thorough. As I stated, we have very different approaches, but you didn't dynamite the campsite, which is a plus.

However, we both observed the kind of filth some people leave behind and it's outright criminal. We also know what kind of filth left it there. It wasn't me and it wasn't you.

And yes, we are indeed our brother's keeper. It's just a shame our brother is such a slob.

Laz
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Critter

Post by lazarus »

Critter,
I agree with every word you wrote... even the part about carrying my stuff.
I'll admit, I sometimes carry my gray shoulder bag, which carries my headlamp and keeps my water cold... all ten ounces of it.

The solar fan is just plain genius. It really helps with the air quality.

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Trash Talk.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

"However, we both observed the kind of filth some people leave behind and it's outright criminal. We also know what kind of filth left it there. It wasn't me and it wasn't you."

Just to be clear......I have never been to the pit mine site.

On the other hand, while I find the trash that was left behind deplorable, I can understand why the folks that worked the mine did not clean up after themselves. Just about any of you, finding a wall of gold in the Superstitions.......would work it. I know there are some who will deny that, but I see little sign of high moral standards in many of your posts.

The fact that you make it a habit of writing, and I assume thinking, in a filthy and self demeaning manner is the reason you posted in the wrong forum. Bad habits seldom recognize boundaries.

The location of this pit is not a site that the average person would ever find. You would have to be looking for it to find it, or have a personal guide who had been shown the location by someone else. This site was known by those who worked it and a few people they took there, at least, in the 1980's.

It's likely they took the caches first, and finally decided to open the pit.

I don't judge these folks to be "filth". Folks who know them, would never expect them to be anything but respectful of other people. Having just taken out a small fortune from the pit mine, I can't imagine them taking the further risk of hanging around to clean up the trash. From the pictures I have seen, it is confined to specific areas and not spread over the entire countryside. I could be wrong about that.

Glad to hear you are all treading lightly. As I said, I seldom went into the well travelled areas, so I was not exposed to the trashy side of the Superstitions. Mostly we had to make our own trails, or walked very old ones that had a habit of disappearing........regularly.

I hope all is well with you and the wife.

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Trash Talk.......

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]

I can understand why the folks that worked the mine did not clean up after themselves. Just about any of you, finding a wall of gold in the Superstitions.......would work it. I know there are some who will deny that, but I see little sign of high moral standards in many of your posts.

The location of this pit is not a site that the average person would ever find.

I don't judge these folks to be "filth". Folks who know them, would never expect them to be anything but respectful of other people. Having just taken out a small fortune from the pit mine, I can't imagine them taking the further risk of hanging around to clean up the trash. [quote]

first, it is irrelevant whether anyone else finds that site...filth is filth.
second. anyone who walks into a wall of gold...recovers the gold..and leaves a pigsty..is a pig.
anyone with the slightest intelligence, moral standards...who did not wish to be busted for theft...which is what happened....would hire some day laborers to clean up the site...and claim they were do gooders....but no...that is not what happened...plastic oil bottles...wire fence( not around the hole to prevent humans and animals from fall to their doom.)...what else? garbage in, garbage finds gold..garbage abandons their garbage...takes the gold...
yes..i see the moral superiority you mention...i am sure i have none...i live in the back of a truck...so it makes it easy doesn't it...
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You folks are something!

Post by Knun »

Brad, PWP, and Critter,

Who appointed you folks the keeper of the Superstitions?
Somehow simply because you decide to us the terminolgy, the mountains have become a sensitive ecological zone. The mine area is the same because you choose it to be. What a total load of ....!

Sorry guys but I call Bull.... when I smell it or see it. So get used to it.

Others choose to give you a pass and nod their heads but I won't do that. Many of us treat those mountains as our home. Haul out trash, etc., etc. In fact everyone I know.
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What Pit?

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

wrong.

You most certainly have spent time around the trashy side of the mountain, as the first LDM rendezvous was held among piles of trash left by others, and that location was your idea.

Maybe you need to see a doctor.

Laz
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I can't believe you would defend people leaving filth in the mountain.

Brad
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Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I don't regret what I wrote about Knun. Not for a moment. I won't regret it tomorrow or the day after either. In fact, after reading through the post, I think it fits nicely.

And you might as well blow sand out yer butt if you think I regret my language. I have no qualms about the words I choose, and I don't care if you do.

A warmonger lecturing a potty mouth about ethics.

Laz
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i was appointed a keeper of the earth by grandfather david.
awarded the red tail hawk feather, by the keeper of the west gate of the anna mae sundance at big mountain.
there's more...but you do not even comprend what i have posted already.
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...from a hole in the ground

Post by critter »

In my opinion, and that is all I have to offer, I don't think it is appropriate to "destroy" anything in order go looking for the Dutchman, or to find it either. Whether it's a "sensitive ecological site" or the park benches, I just don't see why anything needs to be destroyed in order to locate a hole in the ground. Of course, there are those who don't know the difference from their own ass, but what can you do.

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Knun
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PWP

Post by Knun »

Grandfather David's message was timely don't you think?

PWP, Brad, and Critter,

I actually agree with you in many ways. Take out what you brought in and more if you can. Respect Mother always or else. We are on the same page.
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Knun

Post by lazarus »

Knun,

Right on and amen!

Yesterday you began to defend yourself by saying you and those you know believe in keeping it clean, and I wondered why you would back-pedal.

There are those who worked out there who never intended to make a mess, and then there are those who just don't care. I would not believe you if you claimed you didn't care. I believe you care.

Joe,

I think I know what this is about. You still feel guilt about dumping that refrigerator you hauled in there.


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Nice!

Post by critter »

Good on 'ya, Knun!

Critter
Joe Ribaudo
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The Superstitions......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Don't know how to break this to you, but the first Rendezvous was nowhere near the Superstition Mountains.........although it was in Arizona.

I never found the mess left at the pit mine anything but deplorable. I doubt those who left it will be returning to clean up that mess anytime soon, so perhaps those of you who still hike and are so offended by it, will hike in there and do a little ecological clean-up. I will be happy to donate my truck and trailer to haul the stuff to the dump, and set aside a time to do it.

As for hauling a refrigerator into the mountains........I have talked to the man who did haul one in, and I will be happy to introduce you to him at the next Rendezvous. I believe he hauled a stove in as well. 8O

Nice level of restraint in your posts. Nothing to get in the way of your thoughts.

Joe Ribaudo
Knun
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I still dig that hole.

Post by Knun »

Sorry guys but I'd still dig a hole if I found the LDM. But it would have to be legal for one thing and acceptable to those I respect.

At this point in time it is neither.

But if it was and I did I'd fill it back in is all. Probably hire me some offduty Green suits to plant everything since they have tons of experience covering 100 year old mines.
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