moral behavior & treasure hunting

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine

do you believe destroying sensitive ecological zones appropriate behavior to "discover" the dutchman?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:09 pm

yes
4
50%
no
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

pippinwhitepaws
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moral behavior & treasure hunting

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

after examination of the newest "dutchman" find: the resultant poll numbers that indicate this in not the dutchman, do you belive the filth and destruction observed in that poll is morally correct behavior?
Cubfan64
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I vote no as far as the wording of the poll...

Post by Cubfan64 »

but I have a question...

What if the folks who left that garbage had cleaned up after themselves, removed all traces they ever dug there and refilled the shaft after the were finished?
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i would find that acceptable. pack it in, pack it out...every decent human in the southwest has done that since powell ran the colorado.
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?

Post by Knun »

What is your definition of a sensitive ecological zone?

Are two flowers growing on the side of the 202 freeway a sensitive ecological zone?

If I find the Lost Dutchman in the Sup's, strip mine 500 acres, pay to put it back the way it was, and purchase 10,000 acres of pristine land for my own limited use would that not be a win for everyone. It kinda be like Gore buying carbon offsets from his own company or Ted Turner's land grab. But then I'd have the ability to hang with those rich guys. Like them I could pick and choose who I think is worthy of visiting my land.

Hell yeah I'd tear it up, take every bit of valubles and put it right.
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

the southwest is one of the most fragile ecological systems on earth...that is why one can find thousand year old structures with original ceramics intact.
it has to do with the low humidity, heat and low rainfall. even flagstaff is classified as a desert by rainfall standards. that is why there is no (there are exceptions) undergrowth in the colorado plateau region...
anyone who has found 800 year old sandles made from yucca fibers knows something odd has occuring in the area over a long period of time. mummification of flora and fauna is common...

the greatest concern among most of the people i know who study the us/mexican border is not the fence to keep mexicans out, but building the fence and trench as desired cuts the great sonoran desert in half...ecological nightmare.
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systems?

Post by Knun »

The reason I asked about your definition of a ecological system was to understand where you are coming from.

You defined it as a fragile area of a locale. In your case the Southwest. But is not the Southwest interdependant upon so many outside influences. El Nina for example. Are not my two flowers on the side of the road a subset of your definition? A subset created by man yet still a subset.

You talked of the border fence as a problem to the ecological system of the southwest yet you totally disregard the impact of the illegals on the enviornment. Could you imagine a fence that prevent tens of thousands of people from tramping around the desert disgarding garbage anywhere they wish. After all they could care less for any ecological system in there quest for a better life.

So your assumption that a fence is bad for the enviornment is flawed due to your own political bias I think.
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Post by Cubfan64 »

Just a suggestion - try not to let this go in the direction I have a strong feeling it's headed.
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?

Post by Knun »

Paul,

We're being nice.

It'd be a great campfire discussion I think.

Is not this the campfire of the 21st century?
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Post by djui5 »

Speaking of Gore:


House #1 A 20 room mansion ( not including 8 bathrooms ) heated by
natural gas. Add on a pool ( and a pool house) and a separate guest house, all heated by gas. In one month this residence consumes more energy than the average American household does in a year. The average bill for electricity and natural gas runs over $2400. per month. In natural gas alone, this property consumes more than 20 times the national average for an American home. This house is not situated in a Northern or Midwestern 'snow belt' area. It's in the South.

House #2
Designed by an architecture professor at a leading national university. This house incorporates every 'green' feature current home construction can provide. The house is 4,000 square feet ( 4 bedrooms ) and is nestled on a high prairie in the American southwest. A central closet in the house holds geothermal heat-pumps drawing ground water through pipes sunk 300 feet into the ground.

The water (usually 67 degrees F.) heats the house in the winter and cools it in the summer. The system uses no fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas and it consumes one-quarter electricity required for a conventional heating/cooling system. Rainwater from the roof is collected and funneled into a 25,000 gallon underground cistern. Wastewater from showers, sinks and toilets goes into underground purifying tanks and then into the cistern. The collected water then irrigates the land surrounding the house. Surrounding flowers and shrubs native to the area enable the property to blend into the surrounding rural landscape.

~~~~~
HOUSE #1 is outside of Nashville ,Tennessee ; it is the abode of
the 'environmentalist ' Al Gore.

HOUSE #2 is on a ranch near Crawford,Texas; it is the residence of the President of the United States ,
George W. Bush.

An 'inconvenient truth.'

And, yes you can verify it at:http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
Randy Wright
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"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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Knun
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Wow

Post by Knun »

Randy,

I never knew that of Bush's home. Thanks. Truth is hidden in the strangest places. But both Bush's and Gores legacies are stranger than fiction. Funny how that is. For example google Gore's middle name. Or Bush's grandfather. A little there for everyone.

One of the reasons I questioned PWP's definition is based on my own observation regarding the Sup's.

Most probably know the foothills around Firstwater road had many offroad trails going here and everywhere a few short years ago. You could drive a high clearance vehicle right up to the Silverlock area for example. (did you know there was a marker cactus there....before my time...but not before Greg's).

Anyway the green suits fenced it and did do some planting and grading. The planting was almost entirely cholla.

I'm guessing it was the mid to late nineties.

The roads are now completely gone a decade later.

I'm not sure this area is as fragile as we are led to believe.

With that said I believe it was a positive thing they did. To bad we can't go back in time. I'd pay a pretty penny for that trip.
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djui5
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Re: Wow

Post by djui5 »

Knun wrote:Randy,

I never knew that of Bush's home. Thanks. Truth is hidden in the strangest places.
Crazy isn't it! I was shocked too. Always thought of Bush as different than that. Goes to show you that sometimes you can't judge a book by it's cover :)
But both Bush's and Gores legacies are stranger than fiction. Funny how that is. For example google Gore's middle name. Or Bush's grandfather. A little there for everyone.
That's kinda scary, Bush's grandfather and his families traces. Wow.
To bad we can't go back in time. I'd pay a pretty penny for that trip.
Yeah, me too! I could find all kinda neat stuff everywhere 8O Gotta get that time machine working :lol: :lol:
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

ok...bush property purshaced for almost a mil...now worth 3.2...approx numbers...what abbout house #1?

it is neat he took advantage of "leftover stone" and hydrothermal activity.
money talks...


off topic.....
time machine? ok...lets go...

i remember the first time i pulled into kings ranch to take the hike into hieroglyphic canyon...the guy on the end of the road came out telling me i couldn't park in front of his house... or even on "HIS" street...well...he went back in the house and i took my hike...
:twisted: whew...
i suggest we head to south africa first...wait on the small stuff.
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Post by zentull »

I have mentioned this before, but I can close my eyes in the Superstitions and remeber what things looked like 30 years ago as a kid.....I open them and the difference is amazing. Looking back at the pre 1984 days, it is interesting to note the changes and how some of the trails have been reclaimed by mother nature.

Some areas have suffered since the cattle moved on and others have improved.

The one thing I am happy about is the severe reduction in trash.......as bad as you may think it is, it is nothing like it used to be. There used to be some dumps back in there.

My Uncle operated a lumber mill and planted thousands of trees each year. He improved the land he worked and today his mill and farm are still surrounded by thick woods and a plethora of wildlife. He realized his future was determined by his own actions. It is a fact that he rehabilitated land that had been worked over by mining long before he arrived and today it is a testament of his life.

Just a week ago I ran across a couple of pits where 2 large barrels of arsenic were dumped and are leaking into the ground. I made my phone calls and hope that it will be cleaned up before some curious party gets hurt by someone elses idiocy.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

zentull,
you just made my day, thank you and your family for maintaining the high standards and ethics i learned as a child in those same mountains.
and i agree that in the past some ugly things happened in those mountains. every time someone lights a match, i flashback to highschool in superior, and the smelter bleching it's toxins into the biology lab.
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

First: i did not vote in my own poll.
Second...fifty fifty is better than i thought.

thank you all for your honest opinions.
Cubfan64
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I don't know if you saw it or not Zentull...

Post by Cubfan64 »

but one of my last hikes was to Reavis Falls while I was visiting the area - it's just one of those places I always wanted to see.

I don't know if you recall the old television advertisement where the American indian is paddling a canoe through all sorts of debris, garbage, etc... and at the end he turns and you see a tear on his face.

That's how I felt when I got to the falls, went to soak my feet in the ice cold water for a few minutes and saw an automobile tire lying under the water.

If I thought I could have, I would have carried the thing out with me, but I'm afraid I would have had to spend the night as I barely got out before dark as it was.

Times change - and often, not for the better sadly :evil:
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Post by zentull »

Paul,

Trust me, things are better. Some areas were dustbowls and some veteran Dutch Hunters just left their trash where it fell. Things aren't great, but it is better.

Other than some water and food caches, don't think I ever left even a shell behind.......there is the matter of that arrow though.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i forget what year that big fire cleaned up a lot of that trash...mid 60's?
let me go search.
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Zen

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

I too will cache water, and maybe a jacket, but nothing else. In fact, I hike very, very light.

When I started hiking my area, it was filthy. Lot's of nasty trash. Nick, Critter and I made it a point to haul out trash every trip, and now the area is spotless. Yes, I still find Burger King bags or whatever, but very little.

Of course, if the trash sits out there long enough, it eventually becomes an artifact. There are still old mining dumps we have not removed, but nothing newer than the 1930's.

Without question, I encounter far less environmental destruction out there than I did in the seventies. It has vastly improved. As for the falls, it's easier to haul trash in than haul trash out, so people just leave it. The area around Four Peaks is still really bad as well.

By the way, and you aren't going to believe this, but Nick found historical reference for the so called, "Kino Shades." They are color filters, like the kid's toy. Very simple. They weren't called "Kino Shades", of course, but they do hold some validity.

Laz
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No Trash......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

The areas I hiked were conspicuous for their pristine appearance. On occasion you would find a lone candy wrapper, blown into the area by the wayward winds. We packed our trash out each and every time. Because our camps were so extensive we, of course, had horses to do the work for us. During our hikes out of camp, we put any trash back into our backpacks.

Other than Obie Stoker's old claim at Second Water, I have always avoided the trashy areas. Too well traveled and trammeled. The reason for those large trash dumps is that people spent years and years searching that area. It's interesting to see that people are still walking in the footsteps of those unsuccessful ghosts.

There are still folks digging up Clay Worst's old stomping grounds.........around eighty years after he first came to his conclusions. Some dreams die hard.

Thought we had laid the "Kino Glasses" to rest some time ago.

Joe Ribaudo
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I agree with your assessment of some dreams dying hard. True, so true.

I have no interest in most old digs, although there are some that have stoked my curiosity. Interestingly, most of the old digs in my area were reasonably successful. Of course, I don't usually hike anywhere near the area of the Stoker claim.

AS for the Kino shades, I will admit to having my doubts. I was very surprised to learn they were real, invented by Al Jaziri, during the thirteenth century. Live and learn, I guess.

Joe,
interestingly, you and I have very different hiking rituals. I usually do early morning day trips, and like the 'Stone Map' suggests, I'm out before noon. I spent five full weeks by myself out there about twenty years ago, but that tends to get tedious. On that occasion, my supplies were hauled in for me by others.

You were undoubtedly much more extravagantly prepared, as you usually are. You do it up right, that's for certain. It's rare for me to carry more than a bottle of water and my camera.

Laz
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Different Strokes........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

I have never gone into the superstitions with "a bottle of water", nor left camp for any kind of hike with that small of a kit. Our hikes lasted all day and we often had to go on hands and knees through the brush. That's why I always wore good long sleeve shirts of a heavy cloth, gloves, and never shorts.

Other's on my team laughed at my attire, but coming back into camp at the end of the day.....covered in blood, soon changed their outlook.

I spent most of my early trips into the mountains alone, or with my dog, Juno. Nothing matches those solitary years.

The BIG camps started in 1999. My brother in law and cousin were my only companions. 2004 was my last trip in, and there were seven in our group. In those six years, we never saw another person in our daily climbs and hikes. I take that back, we did have the Feldmans return the day after packing us in one time, and bring the rest of our gear on two more pack horses. We could see them from about 1,000 above camp as they delivered the balance of our goods that morning.

I've had my share of alone time in there. Don't think I missed out on anything. I would not make it a habit to go exploring with just a bottle of water, other than marked trails. Probably not a great thing to advertise.......in case a newbie looks in and decides that sounds like a cool idea. We are, after all, our brother's keeper.

I will pass on following up on your "Kino Shades". :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

who knows which of you caught me out on the trail by the needle one evening...no food or water...your on horsies and full packs...
"you'll die out here like that!" yea...well...the grey matter is the most important thing one takes into those mountains...

and your correct...TOURISTS/ URBAN DWELLERS...DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY OF THIS STUNTS....barefoot and naked is best left to the dine'
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Good Advice

Post by lazarus »

Guys,
good advice. I would never encourage anyone to do what I do unless they are very well acquainted with the terrain and acclimated to the conditions, both mentally and physically. I possess keen desert survival skills and grew up in them thar hills. Even worse, if I suspect I may put myself in danger, I won't even let my friends tag along. Same holds for long or strenuous adventures. I'd rather not involve others in my madness.

I probably do more climbing around in the brush than one might imagine, but if I know in advance, I will wear proper attire, including shirts and long pants. I carry around my share of cactus shrapnel, but most of that is from my front yard.

I have probably a dozen and a half pair of shoes, including two pair of heavy duty hiking boots. I wear sneakers. I do not recommend novice hikers wearing heavy boots for hiking unless they wear those boots every day. Foot and leg injuries from blisters and heavy boots are far more prevalent than snake bites. If you are going to wear them, make certain they will remain comfortable under long hours of strenuous duty.

Joe,
remember...
I'm caching water in key locations, precisely so I won't need to carry it. I strongly recommend topo maps and any kind of GPS unit.

Obviously, I know my way around somewhat, and if I have to eat dirt, I know which pile is edible. People don't have to get hurt out there, and it's more fun when you don't. Don't carry stuff you can't use, and don't use stuff you can't carry...
unless of course, you have a dozen sherpas and a pack mule.

Laz
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Pip

Post by lazarus »

"barefoot and naked is best left to the dine'-"

I don't run around out there barefoot, but I'm usually the shirtless savage of legend. You guys all know how much I detest wearing shirts. Naked? No. Half naked? Usually.

Laz
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