Pip,
according to conclusions reached by the academic community, the area around Papago Park and Indian Bend, (where Indian Bend Wash meets the Salt River, for those not familiar with the area) was once occupied by as many as 30,000 Indians. No small community, and that was only one of many throughout the valley.
Brad
general question
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
De Re Metallica
By the way...
since I keep bringing up the subject, I also wrote a short article about the De Re Metallica, which is the five hundred year old 'bible' of Medieval alluvial mining techniques. For those interested, here's the link:
http://theinfiniteecho.blogspot.com/200 ... ining.html
Thanks,
Laz
(Brad)
since I keep bringing up the subject, I also wrote a short article about the De Re Metallica, which is the five hundred year old 'bible' of Medieval alluvial mining techniques. For those interested, here's the link:
http://theinfiniteecho.blogspot.com/200 ... ining.html
Thanks,
Laz
(Brad)
LDM
Pip,
having been raised in the valley, the legend of the 'Lost Dutchman's Mine' was one of the first stories I learned. I suppose the fact that my grandparents were Germans who spoke Swabian also contributed to my curiosity.
The canals taught me a great deal about what had transpired before my arrival, and the ruins helped me articulate that understanding.
I was never interested in pirates or the sort. I always felt that stuff was for kids and intellectual midgets.
Laz
(Brad)
having been raised in the valley, the legend of the 'Lost Dutchman's Mine' was one of the first stories I learned. I suppose the fact that my grandparents were Germans who spoke Swabian also contributed to my curiosity.
The canals taught me a great deal about what had transpired before my arrival, and the ruins helped me articulate that understanding.
I was never interested in pirates or the sort. I always felt that stuff was for kids and intellectual midgets.
Laz
(Brad)
Re: LDM
Not at all - just because many writers and movie producers romanticize piracy and portray it as mostly something it wasn't doesn't mean it has any less merit as far as history, research and interest is concerned.lazarus wrote:Pip,
having been raised in the valley, the legend of the 'Lost Dutchman's Mine' was one of the first stories I learned. I suppose the fact that my grandparents were Germans who spoke Swabian also contributed to my curiosity.
The canals taught me a great deal about what had transpired before my arrival, and the ruins helped me articulate that understanding.
I was never interested in pirates or the sort. I always felt that stuff was for kids and intellectual midgets.
Laz
(Brad)
I recently had an opportunity to visit the Whydah museum in Provincetown. I had expected a larger set of relics and displays than what I saw, but the information presented was really interesting. The Whydah is the only recorded true pirate ship every discovered and the depth of research the finder employed to find his "needle in a haystack" is on par with any "lost treasure" research I've ever seen.
I understand someone not being interested in the subject, but it seems a bit much to suggest those who do are somehow intellectually challenged.
Point taken - for some reason I interpretted your comment as both your past feelings as well as present ones.
One of the interesting things from the exhibit was a short description of pirate "code of conduct" and how just like other gangs, clubs, etc... they had rules they followed - some of which were actually quite enlightened.
The one that really struck me was how they set aside basically a "pension" or "retirement fund" for men who were either disabled while members of a pirate crew or became too old to continue (this rarely happened of course).
http://whydah.com/
One of the interesting things from the exhibit was a short description of pirate "code of conduct" and how just like other gangs, clubs, etc... they had rules they followed - some of which were actually quite enlightened.
The one that really struck me was how they set aside basically a "pension" or "retirement fund" for men who were either disabled while members of a pirate crew or became too old to continue (this rarely happened of course).
http://whydah.com/
Pirates
Cubfan,
actually, I'm pulling your leg...
it was, in fact, intended as an inside joke between Pip and myself, and was certainly never intended to offend you.
It's true,
I have never been interested in piracy, or treasure, but please don't take the last half of that post too seriously.
Laz
actually, I'm pulling your leg...
it was, in fact, intended as an inside joke between Pip and myself, and was certainly never intended to offend you.
It's true,
I have never been interested in piracy, or treasure, but please don't take the last half of that post too seriously.
Laz
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re Re Metallica
Guys,
I posted some photos of the woodcarvings from the De Re Metallica that you may find interesting. Stuff like Medieval furnaces and such. There are dozens of these woodcarvings featured in the book. I posted three.
http://theinfiniteecho.blogspot.com/200 ... ining.html
Laz
(Brad)
I posted some photos of the woodcarvings from the De Re Metallica that you may find interesting. Stuff like Medieval furnaces and such. There are dozens of these woodcarvings featured in the book. I posted three.
http://theinfiniteecho.blogspot.com/200 ... ining.html
Laz
(Brad)
Hohokam
Pip,
I've been digging into this stuff pretty heavily. Here's a few interesting tidbits I culled from:
http://www.tempe.gov/museum/Tempe_histo ... ohokam.htm
The Hohokam
(We'll just pick it up here...)
Their Culture
The Hohokam were farmers who grew corn, beans, squash and agave. They also grew cotton for textiles. The Hohokam built hundreds of miles of canals throughout the valley to irrigate their agricultural fields. Some of these same canals were later re-excavated and used by pioneer farmers in historic times. The Hohokam had no domesticated livestock. They hunted game such as deer, rabbit, and quail. They harvested shellfish and fish from their canals.
The Hohokam made pottery and stone tools, and wove cotton textiles. They also made hundreds of petroglyphs on rock outcrops throughout the valley.
The Hohokam had no form of writing. Therefore, the Hohokam culture was not a true civilization as defined by archaeologists. However, their social and political systems appear to have been quite complex. The canal systems were large public works projects that required organization and cooperation between communities. Construction at this scale would have required leaders to organize the construction and ongoing maintenance of the canal systems.
The Hohokam canals were very well engineered, as later discovered by European American farmers, indicating that there probably was division of labor between the engineers and the laborers who did the digging. It is likely that some communities, and therefore their leaders, dominated others by controlling access to the source of water for the canals. As a result, some leaders probably gained political power over several communities.
'It is believed that these leaders lived in the communities that had platform mounds and ball courts that were used for ceremonial games, trade and other special occasions when several communities gathered together.
Where Did They Come From?
The Hohokam migrated north from what is now Mexico and settled in southern Arizona. There is strong evidence that they maintained ties with communities in Mexico. Trade items such as parrots and copper bells have been traced to their origins in Mexico. There is no evidence that the Hohokam worked copper themselves so they must have traded the finished products.
What Happened to Them?
Various theories have been proposed over the last century to answer this question. One theory states that they migrated back to Mexico, possibly after an extended drought in Arizona. Another theory proposes that they remained here and evolved culturally into the Tohon Chul (formerly known as the Pima) and/or Tohono O�odham (formerly known as the Papago).
A more contemporary theory states that the Hohokam culture actually was composed of many different ethnic groups operating under a single cultural, economic and political system. When this system broke down (the reason still not being entirely clear), each group went its separate way culturally. Some groups may have migrated elsewhere.
There is still a great deal about the Hohokam culture that archaeologists do not fully understand. Archaeologists continue to conduct research in order to fill in the gaps in their knowledge and answer the many questions that remain.'
Obviously this is not my writing, but clearly illustrates the fog under which the academic community is working. They readily admit to not understanding much about the culture.
The Salt River Valley basin has long thrived with activity. Water brings abundance... fish, wildlife, fowl... crops. Like any other situation, it would seem natural for the various cultures who passed through to influence each other. It's occurred in every other documented example. Why not with the Hohokam?
As for copper, there may be no evidence that the 'Hohokam' produced copper, but there is plenty of evidence suggesting some-one or somebody inhabiting the same vicinity at the same time was using crude alluvial mining techniques to remove ore from the surrounding rock.
Of that I am certain.
Laz
I've been digging into this stuff pretty heavily. Here's a few interesting tidbits I culled from:
http://www.tempe.gov/museum/Tempe_histo ... ohokam.htm
The Hohokam
(We'll just pick it up here...)
Their Culture
The Hohokam were farmers who grew corn, beans, squash and agave. They also grew cotton for textiles. The Hohokam built hundreds of miles of canals throughout the valley to irrigate their agricultural fields. Some of these same canals were later re-excavated and used by pioneer farmers in historic times. The Hohokam had no domesticated livestock. They hunted game such as deer, rabbit, and quail. They harvested shellfish and fish from their canals.
The Hohokam made pottery and stone tools, and wove cotton textiles. They also made hundreds of petroglyphs on rock outcrops throughout the valley.
The Hohokam had no form of writing. Therefore, the Hohokam culture was not a true civilization as defined by archaeologists. However, their social and political systems appear to have been quite complex. The canal systems were large public works projects that required organization and cooperation between communities. Construction at this scale would have required leaders to organize the construction and ongoing maintenance of the canal systems.
The Hohokam canals were very well engineered, as later discovered by European American farmers, indicating that there probably was division of labor between the engineers and the laborers who did the digging. It is likely that some communities, and therefore their leaders, dominated others by controlling access to the source of water for the canals. As a result, some leaders probably gained political power over several communities.
'It is believed that these leaders lived in the communities that had platform mounds and ball courts that were used for ceremonial games, trade and other special occasions when several communities gathered together.
Where Did They Come From?
The Hohokam migrated north from what is now Mexico and settled in southern Arizona. There is strong evidence that they maintained ties with communities in Mexico. Trade items such as parrots and copper bells have been traced to their origins in Mexico. There is no evidence that the Hohokam worked copper themselves so they must have traded the finished products.
What Happened to Them?
Various theories have been proposed over the last century to answer this question. One theory states that they migrated back to Mexico, possibly after an extended drought in Arizona. Another theory proposes that they remained here and evolved culturally into the Tohon Chul (formerly known as the Pima) and/or Tohono O�odham (formerly known as the Papago).
A more contemporary theory states that the Hohokam culture actually was composed of many different ethnic groups operating under a single cultural, economic and political system. When this system broke down (the reason still not being entirely clear), each group went its separate way culturally. Some groups may have migrated elsewhere.
There is still a great deal about the Hohokam culture that archaeologists do not fully understand. Archaeologists continue to conduct research in order to fill in the gaps in their knowledge and answer the many questions that remain.'
Obviously this is not my writing, but clearly illustrates the fog under which the academic community is working. They readily admit to not understanding much about the culture.
The Salt River Valley basin has long thrived with activity. Water brings abundance... fish, wildlife, fowl... crops. Like any other situation, it would seem natural for the various cultures who passed through to influence each other. It's occurred in every other documented example. Why not with the Hohokam?
As for copper, there may be no evidence that the 'Hohokam' produced copper, but there is plenty of evidence suggesting some-one or somebody inhabiting the same vicinity at the same time was using crude alluvial mining techniques to remove ore from the surrounding rock.
Of that I am certain.
Laz
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
i have never heard of the hohokam mining...but the hopi did have a trail from the mesa to jerome..where they gathered copper compounds..they used these compounds for paint...as on the kachina...
jerome mining district was supposedly found by following this old trail to the mine site.
two cultures in what is now the us worked copper...the potlatch peoples..and a some of the great lakes tribes...
those copper bells are all over the place...trade routes were extensive.
jerome mining district was supposedly found by following this old trail to the mine site.
two cultures in what is now the us worked copper...the potlatch peoples..and a some of the great lakes tribes...
those copper bells are all over the place...trade routes were extensive.
Hohokam
Pip,
I agree.
I have never read anywhere that the Hohokam did any mining, and yet, I have found ample evidence of Mesoamerican, alluvial mining having occurred on what are considered Hohokam sites.
It's a mystery to me, but the rocks don't lie.
Laz
I agree.
I have never read anywhere that the Hohokam did any mining, and yet, I have found ample evidence of Mesoamerican, alluvial mining having occurred on what are considered Hohokam sites.
It's a mystery to me, but the rocks don't lie.
Laz
Nomads
Pip,
For instance...
could one culture, capable of metallurgy, have vacated the area at some point, due to drought or famine, only to have another culture move in a few years, (or even perhaps decades) later, when the water and wildlife have returned?
After all, these were nomadic peoples, and that was standard procedure.
Laz
[/i]
For instance...
could one culture, capable of metallurgy, have vacated the area at some point, due to drought or famine, only to have another culture move in a few years, (or even perhaps decades) later, when the water and wildlife have returned?
After all, these were nomadic peoples, and that was standard procedure.
Laz
[/i]
Clatification
Pip,
Saturday morning...
I woke realizing I needed to clarify some of my earlier statements about 'Mesoamerican' mounds. (no... not a Mexican candy-bar).
The mounds located at Pueblo Grande and Mesa Pueblo are earthen, and were created from rocks and dirt primarily removed from the canal systems.
However, the 'Mesoamerican mounds I mentioned earlier, are not. There is at least one of the 'leveled butte' mounds within Phoenix city limits. There are several more I am aware of within a short drive of the city.
Now, here's a few words for old Joe...
I found an old map of the 'military trail' of Dutchman lore, which clearly indicates ancient ruins on the flat-top where ancient ruins are noted on the various 'LDM' related maps. Joe can insist all he wants that I don't know what I'm doing, but I don't have to search for anything... I already know where everything is.
Laz
Saturday morning...
I woke realizing I needed to clarify some of my earlier statements about 'Mesoamerican' mounds. (no... not a Mexican candy-bar).
The mounds located at Pueblo Grande and Mesa Pueblo are earthen, and were created from rocks and dirt primarily removed from the canal systems.
However, the 'Mesoamerican mounds I mentioned earlier, are not. There is at least one of the 'leveled butte' mounds within Phoenix city limits. There are several more I am aware of within a short drive of the city.
Now, here's a few words for old Joe...
I found an old map of the 'military trail' of Dutchman lore, which clearly indicates ancient ruins on the flat-top where ancient ruins are noted on the various 'LDM' related maps. Joe can insist all he wants that I don't know what I'm doing, but I don't have to search for anything... I already know where everything is.
Laz
LDM
In fact,
you recall the story of the 'Two Soldiers' who left Camp McDowell with the intention of heading to the Silver King, I believe.
At any rate, you'll recall that they determined the trail was heading the wrong direction, so they attempted to take a short cut through the mountains...
This should provide plenty of grist for the mill, so to speak. If it doesn't, you are approaching the whole situation wrong. I am always surprised by how many so called 'LDM' experts know so little about the terrain, or the history of the surrounding area. Forget the 'LDM'. Start over from scratch and get your facts on the ground straight first. Once you get your facts straight, the rest falls into place.
How come so many of you are having such rotten luck grasping the concept of the 'old military trail'?
Laz
you recall the story of the 'Two Soldiers' who left Camp McDowell with the intention of heading to the Silver King, I believe.
At any rate, you'll recall that they determined the trail was heading the wrong direction, so they attempted to take a short cut through the mountains...
This should provide plenty of grist for the mill, so to speak. If it doesn't, you are approaching the whole situation wrong. I am always surprised by how many so called 'LDM' experts know so little about the terrain, or the history of the surrounding area. Forget the 'LDM'. Start over from scratch and get your facts on the ground straight first. Once you get your facts straight, the rest falls into place.
How come so many of you are having such rotten luck grasping the concept of the 'old military trail'?
Laz
Back Story
Pip,
by the way...
I currently live back in my old neighborhood, about a hundred yards from the old 'Indian Trail' to Wickenburg. The trail ran along the western side of the Grand Canal until reaching what is now Grand Avenue at 33rd. Ave. From there, the trail continues on to Wickenburg. (Grand Ave.)
The house I'm living in was originally constructed in 1915 and is by far, the oldest structure in the neighborhood. It has a wooden floor, and originally did not have electricity or indoor plumbing. Everything was added later. Obviously, there wasn't even a bathroom inside the original structure.
The house is owned by an early Arizona pioneer family, who are quite grateful for the various restorations I have done to the structure. I did not go looking for this house... the owners came looking for me. I was given carte blanche to do what I felt was right for the house. This helps explain why they have been so generous in contributing to my collection.
I have restored the house to what it might have looked and felt like during the forties or fifties.
This also helps explain why I am so sensitive toward the issues of my Indian and Mexican neighbors. Absurd as it seems, to this very day there are still nomadic Indians who live primarily outdoors, spending much of their day walking the same ancient trails their ancestors traveled.
Of course, we refer to them as bums.
Laz
by the way...
I currently live back in my old neighborhood, about a hundred yards from the old 'Indian Trail' to Wickenburg. The trail ran along the western side of the Grand Canal until reaching what is now Grand Avenue at 33rd. Ave. From there, the trail continues on to Wickenburg. (Grand Ave.)
The house I'm living in was originally constructed in 1915 and is by far, the oldest structure in the neighborhood. It has a wooden floor, and originally did not have electricity or indoor plumbing. Everything was added later. Obviously, there wasn't even a bathroom inside the original structure.
The house is owned by an early Arizona pioneer family, who are quite grateful for the various restorations I have done to the structure. I did not go looking for this house... the owners came looking for me. I was given carte blanche to do what I felt was right for the house. This helps explain why they have been so generous in contributing to my collection.
I have restored the house to what it might have looked and felt like during the forties or fifties.
This also helps explain why I am so sensitive toward the issues of my Indian and Mexican neighbors. Absurd as it seems, to this very day there are still nomadic Indians who live primarily outdoors, spending much of their day walking the same ancient trails their ancestors traveled.
Of course, we refer to them as bums.
Laz
Correction
Pip,
one more thing...
I erred when I stated 'Air Lane' was formerly Jackson. I wrote Jackson, but I meant Buchanan.
Laz
one more thing...
I erred when I stated 'Air Lane' was formerly Jackson. I wrote Jackson, but I meant Buchanan.
Laz
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
my parents both worked at sky harbor when i was a child...the powers that be change names of streets faster than they solve critial issues...
spent many a hour watching the radar screen in the old metal tower...i actually had someone argue that the tower was always on the southside of the runways...sheesh...and called me an idiot when i told them it had been moved.
i am glad you came through that storm safely laz...it was a gullywash up here...but the wind beat the phx area into the mud...
spent many a hour watching the radar screen in the old metal tower...i actually had someone argue that the tower was always on the southside of the runways...sheesh...and called me an idiot when i told them it had been moved.
i am glad you came through that storm safely laz...it was a gullywash up here...but the wind beat the phx area into the mud...
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
i agree on your comment " forget the LDM"...
i have seen enough evidence of prehistoric mining/earthmoving to set me to wondering what humans had found and what did they do with it...
inca, mexican, spanish, anazazi, the occupation list is long...and most of these cultures moved dirt and rocks...
follow the old trails..everything else falls into place...
i have seen enough evidence of prehistoric mining/earthmoving to set me to wondering what humans had found and what did they do with it...
inca, mexican, spanish, anazazi, the occupation list is long...and most of these cultures moved dirt and rocks...
follow the old trails..everything else falls into place...
The Storm
Pip,
I was kinda bummed when I woke up and found a few broken branches in the yard. Then I took a drive.
The area just north of the airport got hit pretty hard. I found thousands of up-rooted and downed trees, several destroyed vehicles, collapsed roofs and walls, snapped power poles, etc. We really got away lucky.
You know,
I have been combing the maps pretty tightly, and it occurs to me I have not found any signs of metallurgy on traditionally Hohokam ruins, but in fact, have found evidence of metallurgy at adjoining sites. There is no sign of metallurgy at Pueblo Grande, and no royal walkway that I can find. The same goes for Mesa Grande and La Cuidad (the ruins at Saint Luke's).
However, there is evidence of 'Mesoamerican' alluvial mining down the street at Papago Park, and some of the evidence is pretty obvious. In fact, the city had once planned to put a mining exhibit where the parking lot now sits at 'Hole in the Rock'. Mining also occurred across the river at Tempe Butte, which contains literally thousands of endangered petroglyphs. Tempe Butte was of course, the main landmark for crossing the river at what later became known as 'Hayden's Ferry'. There are ruins directly across the river, but don't appear to be 'Hohokam'.
For those of you not familiar with Phoenix, I am describing an area within the valley, near the border of Phoenix and Scottsdale, known as ' Indian Bend'. These ruins are very near, if not adjacent, to the ruins at Pueblo Grande.
Laz
I was kinda bummed when I woke up and found a few broken branches in the yard. Then I took a drive.
The area just north of the airport got hit pretty hard. I found thousands of up-rooted and downed trees, several destroyed vehicles, collapsed roofs and walls, snapped power poles, etc. We really got away lucky.
You know,
I have been combing the maps pretty tightly, and it occurs to me I have not found any signs of metallurgy on traditionally Hohokam ruins, but in fact, have found evidence of metallurgy at adjoining sites. There is no sign of metallurgy at Pueblo Grande, and no royal walkway that I can find. The same goes for Mesa Grande and La Cuidad (the ruins at Saint Luke's).
However, there is evidence of 'Mesoamerican' alluvial mining down the street at Papago Park, and some of the evidence is pretty obvious. In fact, the city had once planned to put a mining exhibit where the parking lot now sits at 'Hole in the Rock'. Mining also occurred across the river at Tempe Butte, which contains literally thousands of endangered petroglyphs. Tempe Butte was of course, the main landmark for crossing the river at what later became known as 'Hayden's Ferry'. There are ruins directly across the river, but don't appear to be 'Hohokam'.
For those of you not familiar with Phoenix, I am describing an area within the valley, near the border of Phoenix and Scottsdale, known as ' Indian Bend'. These ruins are very near, if not adjacent, to the ruins at Pueblo Grande.
Laz
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JIM HAMRICK
- Part Timer
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- Contact:
general question
One thing that has always perplexed me was the lack of metal found at Hohokam sites. These people were accomplished artists and worked stone into fine tools, so why is there no sign of working native ores? Since Hohokams covered this valley from the mountains to the east and to the mountains to the west and along the Gila from twin buttes to Gila Bend (I think they probably covered other areas not mentioned). With this amount of acreage they had access to very pure native copper, native silver and native gold so why no metal being worked?
In the fifties off the Hunt Highway there was a rock ledge where two broken axe heads had been left there for hundreds of years and where a hole was dug through the ledge. The was no indication of what the hole diggers removed but there was an old copper mine (probably 1920+-) within a quarter mile of this shaft. The last time I was there the two broken axes had not been touched but that was at least fifty years ago.
I don't think that the Hohokam could be called nomadic. They were great engineers as they built dams and canals ever where along with adobe pueblos some with multi story buildings. This excavation and construction was done with out a written language or knowledge of math. They may have gathered when the desert produced a crop that was eatable but they surely were sedentary farmers in their every day life.
jim hamrick
In the fifties off the Hunt Highway there was a rock ledge where two broken axe heads had been left there for hundreds of years and where a hole was dug through the ledge. The was no indication of what the hole diggers removed but there was an old copper mine (probably 1920+-) within a quarter mile of this shaft. The last time I was there the two broken axes had not been touched but that was at least fifty years ago.
I don't think that the Hohokam could be called nomadic. They were great engineers as they built dams and canals ever where along with adobe pueblos some with multi story buildings. This excavation and construction was done with out a written language or knowledge of math. They may have gathered when the desert produced a crop that was eatable but they surely were sedentary farmers in their every day life.
jim hamrick
Jim
Jim,
that was a great post! Fantastic!
I can't help but wonder myself, how the Hohokam could have avoided metallurgy. I do know for certain they were at least aware of others who did understand the process.
Perhaps it remained just beyond their grasp, or perhaps they were satisfied with the tools they used. During the early 1900's the Turney Ancient Irrigation Canal map (1929) still referred to the Pima land in the east valley as 'the Land of the Stone Hoe'. That says a great deal.
Still, as I have implied through various means, including my many references to 'De Re Metallica', I have thoroughly studied ancient alluvial mining technique, and as I have stated, If it wasn't done by the Hohokam, then by whom? Cause somebody did it, and prior to the arrival of the Spaniards.
Laz
that was a great post! Fantastic!
I can't help but wonder myself, how the Hohokam could have avoided metallurgy. I do know for certain they were at least aware of others who did understand the process.
Perhaps it remained just beyond their grasp, or perhaps they were satisfied with the tools they used. During the early 1900's the Turney Ancient Irrigation Canal map (1929) still referred to the Pima land in the east valley as 'the Land of the Stone Hoe'. That says a great deal.
Still, as I have implied through various means, including my many references to 'De Re Metallica', I have thoroughly studied ancient alluvial mining technique, and as I have stated, If it wasn't done by the Hohokam, then by whom? Cause somebody did it, and prior to the arrival of the Spaniards.
Laz
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Mother Earth.....
Jim,
It seems possible that the Hohokam were forbidden by their religion from directly taking metal from Mother Earth. They had no problem trading for copper bells, but may not have even realized where the material for the bells came from.
Given more time they may have moved to working metal, but probably would have had a hard time seeing it's value. They could do all they wanted without the extra steps of fashoning tools from metal.
It's hard for us to imagine, but we don't have their perspective in time. Perhaps that mind set is why they faded into history.
Take care,
Joe
It seems possible that the Hohokam were forbidden by their religion from directly taking metal from Mother Earth. They had no problem trading for copper bells, but may not have even realized where the material for the bells came from.
Given more time they may have moved to working metal, but probably would have had a hard time seeing it's value. They could do all they wanted without the extra steps of fashoning tools from metal.
It's hard for us to imagine, but we don't have their perspective in time. Perhaps that mind set is why they faded into history.
Take care,
Joe