Randy,
you are welcome.
Pip,
My wife and I are discussing the trip to Chaco again this morning. We just need to find the time.
The mounds you mentioned are of utmost importance. Unlike the Hopewell- Adena mounds back east, which were built from the ground up, the mounds around here were usually small buttes with the peaks removed and leveled, often mistaken for 'Mexican Flat Tops'. However, there is a distinct difference between a 'Mexican Flat Top' and a Mesoamerican temple mound.
The temple mounds are almost always within eyesight of fresh water, and usually, a well trained observer can easily find traces of what I call the 'Royal Walkway', a limestone, plaster applied to the trail leading up to the temple mound. It's one thing to remove evidence of structure, but just try removing a coat of limestone plaster from a hard, jagged rock outcropping. This stuff doesn't go away without a fight. Chipping off every trace of the walkway would be nearly impossible.
There is a method to the madness. The Spanish/Mexican miners were not guessing. As several of the Mexican maps indicate, many of these locations were originally Mesoamerican, alluvial mining operations. It's not fantasy... it's history.
Laz
(Brad)
general question
Bourke Illustration
By the way,
thanks to Joe for posting the photo of the 'Bourke Drawing', which contains far more relevant detail than one may realize. The 'Aztec' arch is like a fingerprint. It is unmistakable. This style of arch, (corbeled) is indicative of the people and period. If you look at the drawing, you'll notice they had yet to grasp an understanding of the principle behind a keystone.
In fact, I have found a photo of a wonderful example of just such an arch, located in Yucatan, Mexico. I will post it in the 'Members Gallery' (Every Picture Tells a Story), page 3.
Laz
(Brad)
thanks to Joe for posting the photo of the 'Bourke Drawing', which contains far more relevant detail than one may realize. The 'Aztec' arch is like a fingerprint. It is unmistakable. This style of arch, (corbeled) is indicative of the people and period. If you look at the drawing, you'll notice they had yet to grasp an understanding of the principle behind a keystone.
In fact, I have found a photo of a wonderful example of just such an arch, located in Yucatan, Mexico. I will post it in the 'Members Gallery' (Every Picture Tells a Story), page 3.
Laz
(Brad)
-
pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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it seems my access is limited on this site...i can not find the folder of photos you posted...also when i go to the home page..i can not sign in...says i don't have an account...yet here i am...
that lime paste used in meso america is now believed to be the main cause of the fall of the mayan empire...
seems they denuded the lands of trees to cook the lime...loss of crops/farmland due to topsoil washing away in the rain...
that lime paste used in meso america is now believed to be the main cause of the fall of the mayan empire...
seems they denuded the lands of trees to cook the lime...loss of crops/farmland due to topsoil washing away in the rain...
'lime paste'
Pip,
you are absolutely correct about the 'lime paste'. That's the stuff. In fact, I reference the 'deforestation' theory in one of my articles. I have both photographs and small samples, (some with tiny little heel prints).
In fact, I have photos of bags of the stuff left under a tree, which I have promised to donate to the museum at south mountain, which has a display on the subject. The contents of the bags became wet and hardened years ago, and the bags have long rotted away. The result is what looks like little white pillows of stone, with very distinct weaving patterns. I found them along a 'Royal walkway', about halfway down to the water. I won't tell you where, precisely, but the walkway is now a paved boat-ramp. I don't believe they are in any immediate danger of destruction, however. They just don't stand out.
I wonder why you aren't able to open the 'Member's Photo Gallery'? Mine is the 11th file down. It is called 'Every Picture Tells a Story', and the photo on the front is of a 'Cowboy Port-a-John'... (an old, two seat outhouse on the back of a pick-up truck).
Laz
you are absolutely correct about the 'lime paste'. That's the stuff. In fact, I reference the 'deforestation' theory in one of my articles. I have both photographs and small samples, (some with tiny little heel prints).
In fact, I have photos of bags of the stuff left under a tree, which I have promised to donate to the museum at south mountain, which has a display on the subject. The contents of the bags became wet and hardened years ago, and the bags have long rotted away. The result is what looks like little white pillows of stone, with very distinct weaving patterns. I found them along a 'Royal walkway', about halfway down to the water. I won't tell you where, precisely, but the walkway is now a paved boat-ramp. I don't believe they are in any immediate danger of destruction, however. They just don't stand out.
I wonder why you aren't able to open the 'Member's Photo Gallery'? Mine is the 11th file down. It is called 'Every Picture Tells a Story', and the photo on the front is of a 'Cowboy Port-a-John'... (an old, two seat outhouse on the back of a pick-up truck).
Laz
Reference Material
You know what...
Joe usually does a very commendable job at listing his resource material, which I seldom if ever do.
Therefor, I am going to take a few moments and list some of the reference material for my Mayan/Aztec (mesoamerican) research.
(Books and Publications)
The Maya
Author: Michael D. Coe
Thames and Hudson
Fifth Edition, 1993
Everyday Life of the Maya
Author: Ralph Whitlock
Dorset Press
Unknown Edition, 1987
Maya Ruins of Mexico
Authors: William M. Ferguson, John Q. Royce
Forward by Michael Coe
Oklahoma Press, University of Oklahoma
Second Edition, 1979
The Mayans
Reader's Digest Presents (VHS)
Authors not listed
Released in 1995
Mexico
Authors: Multiple
Lane Publishing
Fourth Edition, 1976
Aztecs of Mexico
Author: George C. Valliant
Doubleday
First Edition, 1941
Mexico Before Cortez
Author: J. Eric Thompson
Scribners
First Edition, 1933
Civilization Past and Present
Authors: Wallbank, Taylor, Bailkey
Foresman and Company
Single Volume Edition, 1962
Architectural History
Prepared by Lester Werthheimer, AIA
ALS
Second Edition, 1983
These books are all part of my personal collection, and does not include information culled from other sources.
While I'm at it, I would also like to thank the Hellman Estate, (Arizona Pioneer Family) for donating so generously to my collection. (Lots of early pioneer stuff).
Laz
(Brad)
Joe usually does a very commendable job at listing his resource material, which I seldom if ever do.
Therefor, I am going to take a few moments and list some of the reference material for my Mayan/Aztec (mesoamerican) research.
(Books and Publications)
The Maya
Author: Michael D. Coe
Thames and Hudson
Fifth Edition, 1993
Everyday Life of the Maya
Author: Ralph Whitlock
Dorset Press
Unknown Edition, 1987
Maya Ruins of Mexico
Authors: William M. Ferguson, John Q. Royce
Forward by Michael Coe
Oklahoma Press, University of Oklahoma
Second Edition, 1979
The Mayans
Reader's Digest Presents (VHS)
Authors not listed
Released in 1995
Mexico
Authors: Multiple
Lane Publishing
Fourth Edition, 1976
Aztecs of Mexico
Author: George C. Valliant
Doubleday
First Edition, 1941
Mexico Before Cortez
Author: J. Eric Thompson
Scribners
First Edition, 1933
Civilization Past and Present
Authors: Wallbank, Taylor, Bailkey
Foresman and Company
Single Volume Edition, 1962
Architectural History
Prepared by Lester Werthheimer, AIA
ALS
Second Edition, 1983
These books are all part of my personal collection, and does not include information culled from other sources.
While I'm at it, I would also like to thank the Hellman Estate, (Arizona Pioneer Family) for donating so generously to my collection. (Lots of early pioneer stuff).
Laz
(Brad)
PWP - If you go to the Home page, you'll see "Members Photo Gallery" on the left hand side under "Main Menu." That's where all the photos are located.pippinwhitepaws wrote:it seems my access is limited on this site...i can not find the folder of photos you posted...also when i go to the home page..i can not sign in...says i don't have an account...yet here i am...
that lime paste used in meso america is now believed to be the main cause of the fall of the mayan empire...
seems they denuded the lands of trees to cook the lime...loss of crops/farmland due to topsoil washing away in the rain...
I don't know what to tell you about your account. Have you tried logging out and then back in?
Pillows
Pip,
earlier, I mentioned finding three old sacks (bags) of the limestone plaster near the remains of a 'Royal Walkway' leading down to the water. I have posted three photos of these 'lime pillows' in 'Member Archive' (Every Picture Tells A Story) Page 3.
Hopefully, you'll solve your difficulties. If not, I can post them elsewhere... like Flickr.com or one of my blogs. I can always send them to your e-mail, for that matter.
Laz
(Brad)
earlier, I mentioned finding three old sacks (bags) of the limestone plaster near the remains of a 'Royal Walkway' leading down to the water. I have posted three photos of these 'lime pillows' in 'Member Archive' (Every Picture Tells A Story) Page 3.
Hopefully, you'll solve your difficulties. If not, I can post them elsewhere... like Flickr.com or one of my blogs. I can always send them to your e-mail, for that matter.
Laz
(Brad)
Inrerior
Back to the question of whether Gold has been found in the Supes. The answer is yes. However...
The so called 'massacre grounds' that Randy spoke of is not within the interior of the mountain, and even if large quantities of loose gold are found in the region, it would not indicate gold within the interior.
The Buckhorn mine sat on the very western edge of the mountain. Other mines, like the Black Queen and the Bluebird sit nearby. There are several mines just outside of the interior. These are all within range of the 'massacre grounds', and could easily account for the source of any loose ore.
There was also an alluvial dig near the top of the flat Iron, which produced some quantities of gold. In addition, I have found a plethora of evidence suggesting ore was transported within the interior. I have found no evidence suggesting any of this ore was Gold that originated within the interior of the mountain.
There is no reason, however, to discount the probability of ore being transported into the interior for safe keeping. However, and this is a pragmatic, no brainer... most of what has been hidden within the interior is located just off the trail, within a short distance of the trailhead.
There are dozens and dozens of markers placed out there for no other reason than distraction. The idea was to confound and confuse, and it worked. We are indeed, confounded and confused. It is obvious they were out there. They couldn't hide the evidence to that effect. Therefor, to protect their interests, they blurred their activities. It's not rocket science.
Could someone, like say... Randy, locate a large cache within the interior. Yes. Are we apt to find the source? Not in there, we won't.
Laz
The so called 'massacre grounds' that Randy spoke of is not within the interior of the mountain, and even if large quantities of loose gold are found in the region, it would not indicate gold within the interior.
The Buckhorn mine sat on the very western edge of the mountain. Other mines, like the Black Queen and the Bluebird sit nearby. There are several mines just outside of the interior. These are all within range of the 'massacre grounds', and could easily account for the source of any loose ore.
There was also an alluvial dig near the top of the flat Iron, which produced some quantities of gold. In addition, I have found a plethora of evidence suggesting ore was transported within the interior. I have found no evidence suggesting any of this ore was Gold that originated within the interior of the mountain.
There is no reason, however, to discount the probability of ore being transported into the interior for safe keeping. However, and this is a pragmatic, no brainer... most of what has been hidden within the interior is located just off the trail, within a short distance of the trailhead.
There are dozens and dozens of markers placed out there for no other reason than distraction. The idea was to confound and confuse, and it worked. We are indeed, confounded and confused. It is obvious they were out there. They couldn't hide the evidence to that effect. Therefor, to protect their interests, they blurred their activities. It's not rocket science.
Could someone, like say... Randy, locate a large cache within the interior. Yes. Are we apt to find the source? Not in there, we won't.
Laz
'sacbe'
Update:
The 'stone alter' in my photo (Every Picture Tells A Story) is sometimes referred to as a 'stone disc'. Indeed these stones were used for a variety of rituals, all involving human sacrifice.
As for the 'royal walkway' the Mayan word is 'sacbe', which translates to 'white road'. The lime plaster is called 'sahcab', (which hardens when wet). Sometimes these walkways were over a mile in length.
Although the Maya are not believed to have traveled this far north, examples of 'sacbe' can be found throughout the state of Arizona.
Laz
The 'stone alter' in my photo (Every Picture Tells A Story) is sometimes referred to as a 'stone disc'. Indeed these stones were used for a variety of rituals, all involving human sacrifice.
As for the 'royal walkway' the Mayan word is 'sacbe', which translates to 'white road'. The lime plaster is called 'sahcab', (which hardens when wet). Sometimes these walkways were over a mile in length.
Although the Maya are not believed to have traveled this far north, examples of 'sacbe' can be found throughout the state of Arizona.
Laz
Clarification
Clarification:
In order to avoid confusion, I'll explain a little more about the temples, and human sacrifice.
Not every mesoamerican temple was built with murder in mind. Temples used for human sacrifice have steps leading to the top, providing a good view, but lacking the ability to use the sun and shadows to any real effect. Thus, the 'stone discs', which were actually used far more often than the temple rooftops.
The illustration depicts a temple sacrifice. The purpose was slightly different, but the end result was the same. Sometimes over a hundred victims were sacrificed on the same disc on the same day, one after another, like an assembly line.
Oh, and yes...
the disc in the photo is located at a mesoamerican alluvial mine site. If you know what you are doing, you can stop the car, pick a rock up off the ground, take it home, and break the gold out. Easy as that!
Brad
In order to avoid confusion, I'll explain a little more about the temples, and human sacrifice.
Not every mesoamerican temple was built with murder in mind. Temples used for human sacrifice have steps leading to the top, providing a good view, but lacking the ability to use the sun and shadows to any real effect. Thus, the 'stone discs', which were actually used far more often than the temple rooftops.
The illustration depicts a temple sacrifice. The purpose was slightly different, but the end result was the same. Sometimes over a hundred victims were sacrificed on the same disc on the same day, one after another, like an assembly line.
Oh, and yes...
the disc in the photo is located at a mesoamerican alluvial mine site. If you know what you are doing, you can stop the car, pick a rock up off the ground, take it home, and break the gold out. Easy as that!
Brad
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
blood sacrifice is based on the mythology that the deities, the mythical twins...gave their lives to create the world...the result, the blood sacrifice tribes in the Americas gave back blood to appease/show respect for the gods...
not all victims of sacrifice were unwilling. many anthropologist believe that after a "ball game", the winners were awarded top place in the sacrifice that followed the game.
minimalist explanation...
not all victims of sacrifice were unwilling. many anthropologist believe that after a "ball game", the winners were awarded top place in the sacrifice that followed the game.
minimalist explanation...
Death Ritual
Pip,
as usual, you are correct.
They even gave themselves non life-threatening wounds for bonus credit with these deities.
There are ball courts located right within Phoenix city limits... at the Pueblo Grande Indian Ruins on east Washington. How our Indians learned their games is still a matter of conjecture.
I made it a point to go back and re-read some of this stuff, just to make sure I hadn't gone off the deep end. So far, so good.
There is a really crazy ritual involving the 'stone disc' in which the 'greatest warrior' stood on the disc and attempted to fend off other warriors using only a useless stick. The others used obsidian knives, so this almost always resulted in the 'great warrior's' demise.
As you stated, sacrifice was not always involuntary. In fact, they even used a localized (topical) anesthetic to kill the pain prior to some death rituals.
Brad
as usual, you are correct.
They even gave themselves non life-threatening wounds for bonus credit with these deities.
There are ball courts located right within Phoenix city limits... at the Pueblo Grande Indian Ruins on east Washington. How our Indians learned their games is still a matter of conjecture.
I made it a point to go back and re-read some of this stuff, just to make sure I hadn't gone off the deep end. So far, so good.
There is a really crazy ritual involving the 'stone disc' in which the 'greatest warrior' stood on the disc and attempted to fend off other warriors using only a useless stick. The others used obsidian knives, so this almost always resulted in the 'great warrior's' demise.
As you stated, sacrifice was not always involuntary. In fact, they even used a localized (topical) anesthetic to kill the pain prior to some death rituals.
Brad
Discrepancies
Pip,
are you starting to notice the glaring discrepancies in the 'official' academic conclusions?
Brad
are you starting to notice the glaring discrepancies in the 'official' academic conclusions?
Brad
Pueblo Grande
Pip,
I can be such an idiot.
I have probably visited Pueblo Grande over a dozen times, and yet, I have never photographed the 'ball court'.
In fact, when I was a kid, I used to ride my bicycle from 16th street and Indian School Road, down the canal bank, all the way to Pueblo Grande, about six miles, I believe. It was free in those days, but I was under-age, and they weren't supposed to let me in without adult supervision. They always let me in.
I guess I've been fascinated by the subject for some time now.
In fact, for those of you interested, Pueblo Grande, located in east Phoenix, is always free on Sundays. If you have never been there, rest assured, it's well worth your time.
I just might go shoot the ball court right now.
Brad
I can be such an idiot.
I have probably visited Pueblo Grande over a dozen times, and yet, I have never photographed the 'ball court'.
In fact, when I was a kid, I used to ride my bicycle from 16th street and Indian School Road, down the canal bank, all the way to Pueblo Grande, about six miles, I believe. It was free in those days, but I was under-age, and they weren't supposed to let me in without adult supervision. They always let me in.
I guess I've been fascinated by the subject for some time now.
In fact, for those of you interested, Pueblo Grande, located in east Phoenix, is always free on Sundays. If you have never been there, rest assured, it's well worth your time.
I just might go shoot the ball court right now.
Brad
Correction
Well, I didn't get far...
it seems Pueblo Grande is not always free on Sunday. In fact, during summer (May through September) it's closed on Sunday. Shows you what I know.
I was just there a few weeks ago for Summer Solstice. I guess it didn't fall on a Sunday...
Brad
it seems Pueblo Grande is not always free on Sunday. In fact, during summer (May through September) it's closed on Sunday. Shows you what I know.
I was just there a few weeks ago for Summer Solstice. I guess it didn't fall on a Sunday...
Brad
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
there is another ruin in the area....out on brown and mckellips area...i used to ride my dirt bike over the top..great air...
one time i fell into a trench...someone was robbing the site...owned by jack ross...old phx family...i spoke to him, and he actually fenced the area off...the site is actually larger than pueblo grande.
many of my friends lived in the same area as you laz...my first girlfriend used to live at 32 and thomas...
tower plaza was the place to go then...lol.
one time i fell into a trench...someone was robbing the site...owned by jack ross...old phx family...i spoke to him, and he actually fenced the area off...the site is actually larger than pueblo grande.
many of my friends lived in the same area as you laz...my first girlfriend used to live at 32 and thomas...
tower plaza was the place to go then...lol.
Red Devil
Pip,
my wife now works at Red Devil. It's a small world!
The ruins on Brown are still fenced off, but someone has been doing some excavation at the site. Get this... the hospital across the street is closed.
I have a very close friend about three blocks from there, just on the opposite side of the golf course, which they are turning into a water park. In fact, he just called me right now, from the golf course. How strange is that?
Brad
my wife now works at Red Devil. It's a small world!
The ruins on Brown are still fenced off, but someone has been doing some excavation at the site. Get this... the hospital across the street is closed.
I have a very close friend about three blocks from there, just on the opposite side of the golf course, which they are turning into a water park. In fact, he just called me right now, from the golf course. How strange is that?
Brad
Jack Ross
Pip,
I am just old enough to remember Jack Ross, and his lovely wife, Acquanetta. Wallace and Ladmo used to do a pretty funny send-up of them, with Wallace as Jack, and Ladmo as Acquanetta. No wonder we all grew-up so left of center.
Brad
I am just old enough to remember Jack Ross, and his lovely wife, Acquanetta. Wallace and Ladmo used to do a pretty funny send-up of them, with Wallace as Jack, and Ladmo as Acquanetta. No wonder we all grew-up so left of center.
Brad
Mesa Grande
PIp,
I shot some photos of Mesa Grande last night, but now I can't get the photo archive to function correctly. They have been having more problems with this website lately than is really acceptable.
Brad
I shot some photos of Mesa Grande last night, but now I can't get the photo archive to function correctly. They have been having more problems with this website lately than is really acceptable.
Brad
Re: Mesa Grande
I'm really worried that the day is going to come where this website is discontinued - there is alot of worthwhile information here that I would hate to see lostlazarus wrote:PIp,
I shot some photos of Mesa Grande last night, but now I can't get the photo archive to function correctly. They have been having more problems with this website lately than is really acceptable.
Brad
Research
Cubfan,
it would indeed be a tragic loss. The amount of information gathered here is astounding.
I have always admired the depth of research some of these guys have done. Quite impressive.
With that in mind, I should probably send you a PM with my e-mail address.
Laz
it would indeed be a tragic loss. The amount of information gathered here is astounding.
I have always admired the depth of research some of these guys have done. Quite impressive.
With that in mind, I should probably send you a PM with my e-mail address.
Laz
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
i agree with you cubbie..lost information is good to none.
too bad greed gets in the way.
all that information, and no discovery.
an you guys have it all. well..except for the mexican side of the story...and not to be a smartiepants...it was a mexican mine.
the same families live in the region...
laz...behind jack ross lincoln mercury, was a yaqui village...my friends all lived by motorola..and we would run through the village everyday...wild kids...no video games...there was one mans house...carlos castanada describes the house, or one identical to it...was twenty years later i read castanada, and began to come to grips with some events i walked into as a child.
one of our favorite games was to sneak into the POW camp at papago buttes, climb the rock...sown the other side..peak into the window of the command center, cross mc dowell, and climb above hole in the rock....back down and well...wild child...
too bad greed gets in the way.
all that information, and no discovery.
an you guys have it all. well..except for the mexican side of the story...and not to be a smartiepants...it was a mexican mine.
the same families live in the region...
laz...behind jack ross lincoln mercury, was a yaqui village...my friends all lived by motorola..and we would run through the village everyday...wild kids...no video games...there was one mans house...carlos castanada describes the house, or one identical to it...was twenty years later i read castanada, and began to come to grips with some events i walked into as a child.
one of our favorite games was to sneak into the POW camp at papago buttes, climb the rock...sown the other side..peak into the window of the command center, cross mc dowell, and climb above hole in the rock....back down and well...wild child...Pip,
Wow!
Very, very cool!
I have some recent photos taken over at the 'POW' camp. There is still some amazing stuff just laying around on the ground. Nobody seems to care.
I grew up along the canal bank, and I believe that was how I originally became interested in the subject of the Indians.
By the way,
since I was unable to post the photos of Mesa Grande in the Member's Achive, I posted them, along with a few words by John Bartlett, at:
http://destinationarizona.blogspot.com/ ... ruins.html
Brad
Wow!
Very, very cool!
I have some recent photos taken over at the 'POW' camp. There is still some amazing stuff just laying around on the ground. Nobody seems to care.
I grew up along the canal bank, and I believe that was how I originally became interested in the subject of the Indians.
By the way,
since I was unable to post the photos of Mesa Grande in the Member's Achive, I posted them, along with a few words by John Bartlett, at:
http://destinationarizona.blogspot.com/ ... ruins.html
Brad
-
pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm