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pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i hope laz found the site... :D
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Cubfan64

Post by lazarus »

Cubfan64,

The wall in front of me hides the mine from view of those below, and prevents us from falling off the ledge to our deaths. it is not the garrison wall described in the earlier post. It is along the edge of the pit.

Pip is correct. The hole in the wall of the 'safe room' photo is just large enough for a small man to crawl through. The walls in the photo are ruins, no more than a couple feet high.

Lazarus
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Re: Cubfan64

Post by Cubfan64 »

lazarus wrote:Cubfan64,

The wall in front of me hides the mine from view of those below, and prevents us from falling off the ledge to our deaths. it is not the garrison wall described in the earlier post. It is along the edge of the pit.

Pip is correct. The hole in the wall of the 'safe room' photo is just large enough for a small man to crawl through. The walls in the photo are ruins, no more than a couple feet high.

Lazarus
Gotcha - I can visualize them both now. Thanks
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

The answer to the 'Big Question' will have to wait for now, other than yes.


i really have an entire series of "little" questions about the site...buttons and bones...tools...historic rock art? :D

the big question is none of my business...
lazarus
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Shoot

Post by lazarus »

Shoot.
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

well... according to apache ledgend...there should be the remains of several people up there, in the pit.... tools and other camp goods in the area?...packs, saddles sturrips...the detruis of a large party of miners leave at least beer bottles...even if they are low fired clay...

i must say i only partially believe the apache accounts...they are such individualists, it is difficult to believe that a large party would gather together to "fill" a mine is bordering on science fiction...
gather for war..yes...gather for a religious event...yes...but, even with the most devout, manual labor is not the most sought after spiritual state...

yet the account states that the apache threw the bodies and mining materials into the shaft(s) and filled in?
these materials...perhaps some texts? notes? parchment would survive in an enviroment like that...
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Who knows how much of the legends are true...

Post by Cubfan64 »

But I have to believe that a thorough search with a metal detector within a reasonable range outwards from the pit mine should pick up a fair number of artifacts. I wouldn't expect to find anything like a money clip with the initials JW on it or anything, :wink: but with the activity that supposedly took place there over many years, one would expect to find things like buttons, bullet casings, tools or parts thereof, etc...

Not necessarily enough evidence to pinpoint who was there, but enough to make an educated guess as to dates of activity.

I'd be more than happy to offer my services to detect the area around the site Laz :wink:

Seriously, I look forward to hearing more from you about this site as you're able to give out information.
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Not necessarily enough evidence to pinpoint who was there, but enough to make an educated guess as to dates of activity.

that is my point, though not just when...tools at that time were often marked by the manufacture...even if it was a blacksmith...leather work, spurs...all leave a fingerprint a historian could follow...

ceramic's could date the site...and the location of the merchant who sold the goods to the mining party... :D
i really am a historian.
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artifacts

Post by critter »

Laz,

Maybe you should post a few pics of the artifacts

Critter
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i am not asking for public disclosure in a forum that loves to pick at nits...pic's, descriptions sent to my email...i will abide by privacy issues.
[email protected]
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PWP

Post by lazarus »

PWP,

fortunately, we have not uncovered any evidence of human remains in the pit or shaft. No, bones, teeth, etc.

Critter,
I have been mulling what to present next, but as you recall, the last time we posted photos of artifacts, we caused a 'virtual' riot. (That was intended as a pun, but I won't push it)

I will state, however, that a stone deity was discovered in a small pocket of an apparent 'mine shrine' located along the ledge, directly beneath the spot I described in an earlier post as the 'trick of the trail'.

The authenticity of the 'deity' has been hotly debated, but no-one has presented any evidence suggesting it is somehow the product of fraud. Personally, I have no doubts as to it's orIgin. I might be persuaded to re-post those photos, if not here, then perhaps on one of my blogs. Either way, I'll talk with Critter privately, and we'll put something together.

Laz
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

thanks laz...
is this the same effigy posted on the other dutchman's site?
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Post by Cubfan64 »

I think I recall hearing about that item, but never saw any photos of it - I'd like to see it as well.

As an aside, I've always found it curious that Treasure Hunters quite often have to be pretty open-minded by nature, and yet at the same time they can be so close-minded when it comes to other people's theories and ideas.

I suppose most of it is explainable when one takes into consideration the amount of research, investigation and exploring one has to do on one's own theories. I imagine all that effort convinces them of the truth of their theory and it's difficult to keep an open mind that perhaps they are wrong.

I guess we all fall into that trap - I'm fortunate in the respect that I still consider myself to be on the ground floor of all this.

Anyways - Laz, if you ever post the photos again somewhere, drop me a PM here if you think of it - I'd like to see them.
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

people are strange...

my agenda is locating a mission that would have supported the large party doing the mining. a treasure to me would be those melting adobe walls...it lay somewhere along the mouth of the san pedro...but then we fall into tales and supposition...there is a lost period in arizona history...between about 1750...(jesuits suddenly become shoddy archivists?). early anglo interface is mostly military officer diary/daily reports...don dedra once mentioned a diary still in private hands from a one of the first ranchers...

sparce documentation...then legends grow...

don't hear much that the first military survey of southern arizona was welcomed by apache warriors...who then ran with the mounted troops the day long...laughing and meeting new friends....lets go kill mexicans guys was the drift...
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PWP

Post by lazarus »

PWP,

The answer is no,
this is not the same as anything posted elsewhere. Give me a few hours to mull my options.


laz
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Post by Scott »

Laz , I am also very interested is seeing the pictures you have and any other info you would like to share.
PWP ,I have seen 2 filled mine shafts. They were filled by Indians . I dont know how you would tell if they were Apaches . But they were both very hard to fill and not just filled and covered a few paces- but erased from view -almost . These areas can be very hard to reach , The open areas near the river show no signs of missions or any settelment / camps. But they could be under the lakes.
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

thanks scott,
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The Salt River......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Scott,

Someone who travelled along both sides of the Salt in the early 1870s, was John Gregory Bourke. He wrote extensively about everything he saw along the way. His narrative can be found in "The Diaries Of John Gregory Bourke". Edited and Annotated by, Charles M. Robinson III.
If you are unable to find it in a local library, it is well worth buying on the Internet.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Scott »

Thank You Joe, That will be a good read. PWP , There could have been a Spanish cross that was carved on the cliff face thats inline with one of the mines . But it looks like it was "erased" from the wall . All the tailing's , waste rock, trails and arasta's were removed . There is not even one piece of waste rock to be found , except for some - possible pieces dropped over a steep face into the river/ water way below . There is one main marker still present. Cant say who or when it was placed , But it resembles the old ones we've seen before. Why was left after such a clean up? The fill was brought up from about 1/4 mile or more away. So There is proof they were filled and hidden. Our impressions are the workers were women and children .
Joe , It would be interesting to read about those travels . Its impossible to tell if the trails were started by men or if men followed the game trails. Always keeping an eye out for sign. Scott.
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Post by don »

I grew up with the tale,believed it implicitly through the years, like people sometimes tend to as they are growing up.It was only as I dug deeper,that little by little my belief waned,until now ,and for some years past I find it hard to accept there ever was a mine,or cache associated with Waltz...at least not in the sense that the legend says.At the very least I dont see any concrete evidence of its existence.
Im of the opinion that all we have is words..the words of waltz ,julia thomas, petrasch etc.We cant know at this late stage whether waltz bullshitted julia and the others..or for that matter whether julia thomas bullshitted everyone else.The words of others who have written on the subject mean very little in my opinion,they are people who havent seen the mine merely parroting the words of others who havent seen the mine either :roll:
Does it really come down to whether waltz or julia thomas told the truth?How can we know they did?...or didnt?
Circumstancial evidence is mostly I feel all there is..not circumstancial evidence that makes waltzs mine likely,but merely makes it possible..but anything is possible .
After all if I said Id found the mine,myself, yesterday,nobody would believe me just on the basis of my words, so why believe 2nd hand recollections of what Waltz MIGHT have said 120 years ago without anything to support those words?....apart from more words from others who,even with directions,found zero.
regards
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Post by Cubfan64 »

don wrote:I grew up with the tale,believed it implicitly through the years, like people sometimes tend to as they are growing up.It was only as I dug deeper,that little by little my belief waned,until now ,and for some years past I find it hard to accept there ever was a mine,or cache associated with Waltz...at least not in the sense that the legend says.At the very least I dont see any concrete evidence of its existence.
Im of the opinion that all we have is words..the words of waltz ,julia thomas, petrasch etc.We cant know at this late stage whether waltz bullshitted julia and the others..or for that matter whether julia thomas bullshitted everyone else.The words of others who have written on the subject mean very little in my opinion,they are people who havent seen the mine merely parroting the words of others who havent seen the mine either :roll:
Does it really come down to whether waltz or julia thomas told the truth?How can we know they did?...or didnt?
Circumstancial evidence is mostly I feel all there is..not circumstancial evidence that makes waltzs mine likely,but merely makes it possible..but anything is possible .
After all if I said Id found the mine,myself, yesterday,nobody would believe me just on the basis of my words, so why believe 2nd hand recollections of what Waltz MIGHT have said 120 years ago without anything to support those words?....apart from more words from others who,even with directions,found zero.
regards
Don - you're where alot of us have been at one time or another on the LDM legends.

What it comes down to for me is Waltz's word - if he was lying or exaggerating things, everything falls apart - and as you said, at this stage of the game there's just no way to know the answer to that question.

As to whether Julia or Holmes were BS'ing, I personally believe they thought there was a mine or cache out there. There's too much evidence of them actually spending significant amounts of time and money searching - I just don't see anyone doing that unless they have reason to believe there's something to the story.
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Post by don »

hi cubfan
Maybe Im just getting old and cynical......or wiser...Im not sure :wink:
regards
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Post by djui5 »

don wrote:I grew up with the tale,believed it implicitly through the years, like people sometimes tend to as they are growing up.It was only as I dug deeper,that little by little my belief waned,until now ,and for some years past I find it hard to accept there ever was a mine,or cache associated with Waltz
Don,
There are many who have found Gold back in those mountains. In the middle 1800's we have a discovery of a large party of Mexicans murdered by Indians and Gold scattered all over the place. Deering discovered an extremely rich mine deep in the mountains. The 2 Soldiers also found extremely rich Gold back there. It's not just Waltz we are relying on. Maybe all of these people didn't locate the same mine, but at the least it proves there is RICH Gold veins back in those mountains somewhere. I have no reason to believe Waltz lied.

You also have to look at the actions of people who personally knew Waltz. Do you really think someone as level headed and intelligent as Rhiney would spend the rest of his life hunting some lost mine if Waltz had lied to him? He would have most certainly figured it out eventually.

Then we have the Gold that was under Waltz's death bed. Not only that but he paid for Julia's debts with Gold ore. None of this ore seems to come from a known source in Central AZ mines. Where do you suppose he got it from if there was no mine? Ask yourself, why would he lie Rhiney and Julia? What was in it for Waltz?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
don
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Post by don »

djui5 wrote:
don wrote:I grew up with the tale,believed it implicitly

Don,
There are many who have found Gold back in those mountains. In the middle 1800's we have a discovery of a large party of Mexicans murdered by Indians and Gold scattered all over the place. Deering discovered an extremely rich mine deep in the mountains. The 2 Soldiers also found extremely rich Gold back there. It's not just Waltz we are relying on. Maybe all of these people didn't locate the same mine, but at the least it proves there is RICH Gold veins back in those mountains somewhere. I have no reason to believe Waltz lied.

You also have to look at the actions of people who personally knew Waltz. Do you really think someone as level headed and intelligent as Rhiney would spend the rest of his life hunting some lost mine if Waltz had lied to him? He would have most certainly figured it out eventually.

Then we have the Gold that was under Waltz's death bed. Not only that but he paid for Julia's debts with Gold ore. None of this ore seems to come from a known source in Central AZ mines. Where do you suppose he got it from if there was no mine? Ask yourself, why would he lie Rhiney and Julia? What was in it for Waltz?
Hi djui5,
Deerings story is pretty much just a story...the two soldiers tale is much the same,are you saying those two tales are factual?Can you show them to be anything other than "campfire tales"?The remains of a massacre in the mountains could be said to have happened,but to say gold was strewn all over the place,in the manner of which you are saying it,is altogether beyond the truth . But that aside ,the presence of rich mines in the area doesnt prove that Waltz had such a mine does it?,In fact ,as far as I can see theres isnt any incontrovertible proof that Waltz had any gold at all.
As for rhiney spending the rest of his lefe searching,,,well thats no real proof of anything....its easy to be fooled,many have spent decades of their life searching for such things as the loch ness monster, sasquatch, fairies ,elves and atlantis. :lol:
Was the gold supposedly under waltzs bed a reality?Im not sure its been proved to be.
What was in it for waltz,?would he have lied? people DO lie, people HAVE lied,people ARE taken in by all manner of things,for all manner of reasons......Im not a psychiatrist ,so Im unable to answer.
regards
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

not only is the area mineralized...there is the fact what mines have been proven are of a unique nature...the bubble of silver at the silver king...the polymetallic nature of superior...an examination of the vast mineral body over in ray will leave anyone speechless for a moment...think the grand canyon is beautiful? go look at the pretty blues and greens exposed in that mine...azurite and other copper compounds outcrop out by Florence...

there could be a vent in the most unlikely place...
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