general question

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don
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general question

Post by don »

Is believing in the dutchman(in members opinions) more a matter of faith than anything else? is everything weve read,everything weve been told,the stories i presume weve all grown up with enough to justify the belief in the legend? there is circumstancial evidence,to be sure,but is that enough? If the answers yes, are we accepting the legend as it is popularly known...i.e fabulous wealth,rose quartz,millions in gold etc etc etc, or merely a small amount mined,discovered or whatever by an otherwise insignificant "jacob" and an equally ordinary cast of characters ,who would have remained just that if it wasnt for the writings of ,what i would regard as novelists, but some would regard as historians? doubt if this post will be answered ,(a) cos i posted it :lol: (b) cos its perhaps its an inane post....well it is 12.54 a.m..thats my excuse anyhow.
kind regards
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Joe Ribaudo
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Believing.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don,

Speaking only for myself, I believe that Waltz had some kind of mine. While it's possible he only had gold that he had collected over his years of prospecting.......outside of the Superstitions, it seems unlikely that he would tell a story of having a rich mine in the mountains to people who were caring for him in his final days and hours.

I also believe the pit mine we are discussing, is that mine. Not all of the evidence pointing towards that distinct possibility has been presented yet. Some never will be, but I will provide more circumstantial evidence soon.

Nice hearing from you again.

Take care,

Joe
don
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Post by don »

hi joe,
In your opinion,and we all know that much has been fabricated, much exaggerated and all the rest of it,and if we accept for the moment that the mine you mention was waltzs,and if it was ,then obviously he would have extracted some gold from it. but if the true amount of gold taken ,and the worth of that gold known,would the legend be in shakespeares words "much ado about nothing"?
sorry for boring the board with these pretty much unanswerable questions but ive got a lot of time on my hands right now....broke my bloody ankle lol.....ok keep the laughing to a minimum please :(
kind regards
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Spare Time......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don,

Sorry to hear about your accident. Are you trying to say you have some spare time on your........ankles? :)

I think your supposition is probably pretty close to the truth. I doubt the Waltz mine was as rich as he thought it was........despite some opinions that he would have been able to tell.

Extremely rich surface lodes are not uncommon in Arizona's history. You only know how much gold you really have once you have reached the end of the vein. It could have been exactly as he described it, and pinched out after another 20 feet of excavation. That may not be true today, but in Waltz's time I imagine that's how it was.

There are many records of mines being sold that ended up being shallow surface lodes. The Bully Bueno in the Bradshaws is one such case. 8O

It may also be that Waltz found the massacre site early on and picked his ore up there. I will still place my bet on the worked out pit mine we have been discussing.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

I think that both signatures that Randy and I attach to our posts are tied to Don's post. Whatever Waltz had was known to only a few people and the descriptions of it and the perserverance of those who had first hand stories bear out its existence. Folks are pretty apt the not only put their own spin on things, but believe in what they have created.

Faith is all they have really and as long as they have it, all things go well in their individual reality. It is not that they are right or wrong....just what they believe in.

In a surreal way the LDM saga follows "The Good,The Bad and The Ugly" closely.

The description of the pit/mine leaves me with no doubt that there was plenty of gold left behind. Just the last cache would be enough for most of us at this point. I figured it was a pretty good cache in that it would have been a good 3 way split according to Waltz.

The first cache brought Waltz stability. The second was his savings that could of held out very well if not for Julias circumstances and needs. The third probably was as much as the first 2 combined.

As much as we see Julia gaining an advantage of her relationship with Waltz, I believe it was equally an advantage for him. That last cache would have made him a partner in a business which required very little physical effort on his part. He would have had partners he felt he could trust and who would look out for him.

My belief is the LDM is under tons of rock and the chance of discovering that pit and proving it are nearly impossible at this point in time.

I doubt that causes any Dutch Hunter a moments hesitation though.
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well stated...

Post by Cubfan64 »

My belief is the LDM is under tons of rock and the chance of discovering that pit and proving it are nearly impossible at this point in time
I tend to agree with you
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What's Above????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Are there any descriptions of the LDM that indicate the possibility of that type of burial?

Joe
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Post by zentull »

yes..................
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Many thanks......
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Post by zentull »

Interesting sidenote are the dozens of stories that came via Herman Petrasch. Herman almost as a rule added the caveat"Now if you just tell the story as I told it to you...." or something along that line. Each story varies and some include descriptions of something and others have descriptions of something else. Add those stories together and they never contradict one another.

I figure most folks left stuff out they hadn't heard about so they had inside information, not thinking Herman was telling everyone else. Today we have better resources and those tangents from their sources are pretty revealing. Just damn difficult to find every snippet.

What I was very intrigued about was Herman mentioned old mines in the area of the current possible LDM or however you want to call it. Garman chased that area more than the actual area Herman appears to believe the LDM was in. In fact some of the claims on the "Silver Chief" were witnessed by one Herman Petrasch.............If you take Hermans words concerning these other mines, it seems he had an idea about that site or general area beforehand. Just when he figured it out or why he did not act on it is beyond me.

The great advantage we have today is not just the resources, but the ability to cut and paste things from various sources.
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

"What I was very intrigued about was Herman mentioned old mines in the area of the current possible LDM or however you want to call it..."

i know a person who was repeatedly stopped an made to dump gold ore he had aquired out in that area...i always wondered why Magma didn't have him arrested? why could magma engineers force anyone to dump anything, unless it was their patent?
not attempting to cause trouble...just a snippet of reality.
curious things happen out in that triangle...
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Post by Cubfan64 »

zentull wrote:Interesting sidenote are the dozens of stories that came via Herman Petrasch. Herman almost as a rule added the caveat"Now if you just tell the story as I told it to you...." or something along that line. Each story varies and some include descriptions of something and others have descriptions of something else. Add those stories together and they never contradict one another.

I figure most folks left stuff out they hadn't heard about so they had inside information, not thinking Herman was telling everyone else. Today we have better resources and those tangents from their sources are pretty revealing. Just damn difficult to find every snippet.

What I was very intrigued about was Herman mentioned old mines in the area of the current possible LDM or however you want to call it. Garman chased that area more than the actual area Herman appears to believe the LDM was in. In fact some of the claims on the "Silver Chief" were witnessed by one Herman Petrasch.............If you take Hermans words concerning these other mines, it seems he had an idea about that site or general area beforehand. Just when he figured it out or why he did not act on it is beyond me.

The great advantage we have today is not just the resources, but the ability to cut and paste things from various sources.
Wayne - I spent some time looking through the Herman Petrasch file while I was in Arizona and noticed as well that he was "witness" to quite a few claims in that area. not being familiar with mining claims, what exactly is the role of the witness? Does that mean they physically had to have seen the claim, does it mean they were a partner in it, or just that they happened to be present when the claim was being filed and signed off on it?

I picked up a copy of Al Morrow's "manuscript" from the SMHS museum and found it odd that if what Al says is true, Herman claimed a number of times that he and Rhiney remembered spending time with and hearing Waltz's clues as young kids - I asked Greg about that because I was under the impression that Herman never met Waltz and only got involved after Rhiney and Julia convinced him to come out and help look. Greg mentioned that there have been some concerns about Al's "manuscript" and who actually wrote it because it appeared after his death - could be his family wrote it and just added things to embelish it.

It did make me start to wonder if Herman was a little "nutty" though - which of course causes one to start wondering how much of anything he said could be trusted.

I did note that in Morrow's paper and discussions with Herman, your comment about Herman saying "just write down exactly what I say and you'll have the true story" is right on the mark.
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Post by zentull »

"I did note that in Morrow's paper and discussions with Herman, your comment about Herman saying "just write down exactly what I say and you'll have the true story" is right on the mark."

I think you will find that statement in Garmans book, the 1954 interview before his death, etc.......

In each case the story is slightly different.

Was Herman a bit nutty? No more than most and a bit cagier than expected. I believe he incorporated elements from other stories to his....same thing that happened with the Holmes story. I did note that Herman alternates from saying"this is all my brother knew" to "this is all my brother told me" on occasion. Semantics perhaps, but the Petraschs both were always up to some antics I believe.

Utilizing his references to the mine/pit it is obvious that they were frustrated they could not find it. They knew what it looked like and how to approach it, but were lost in the middle of the directions.

Part of my point was that Herman probably knew more than he let on. Very similar to those today who clue you in enough to find it on your own.
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Zen

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

tell me more about the pit they were searching for, and I'll post a photo of it.

Laz
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Zen

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

you wrote:

"Herman mentioned old mines in the area of the current possible LDM"

They're featured on the Stone Maps.

Laz
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Post by zentull »

This could take a while, so I will see if it gathers any interest before going into details.....

The LDM is a pit with the big end up and goes down at an angle

The LDM is on a slope and could be seen from above, but not below.
Waltz did not like working the area because the pit was open to the higher ridgeline and offered no cover. He would not know if he had visitors until he came up out of the mine. This to me also explains the pit shaped like a funnel that sloped due to the terrain.

You could pass within 200 yards of it and not see it. This seems a contradiction, but I believe it means from below. That would mean the terrain, brush and trees would create a natural cover. I also believe it means the area would not get most folks interest......it would seem a dead end. This also means he could see the trail in the canyon below without being seen.

You approach the mine from above, but there is no passage for animals. I would take this as the approach is too steep and impassable to horses or Mules. Waltz said he hobbled the pack animals at his camp and rode to the mine and tied his horse above the mine. This also indicates the camp was a fair distance from the mine.

Oddly enough this correlates Deerings trail as well....he mentions a hole, but then changes it to a trick?

The loose earth washed into the mine because of the angle and the higher ridges around. This indicates it is in an arroyo, ravine and possibly small narrow canyon. Almost all accounts use these terms to describe the LDM.

You have to travel one way through the canyon and take the trail up and backtrack to the path leading to the mine. Again, this is pretty much the same as Holmes and Deerings accounts as we know them. Of course the tricky thing is that it is in a North to South trending canyon, but the Arroyo/canyon/ravine also seems to run North and South?

There are some peaks above the mine and this is the frying pan clue. There should be a major peak to the south(usually believed to be Weavers Needle) and supposedly Waltz could see Miners needle from the mine as well by description. There should be a series of peaks to the north as well. Waltz never mentions Weavers Needle by name, so it could be the south peak is one and the same as the peak with a hole. Remember the clues are from varied tellings and may not be separate entities.

There is water near the mine, but Waltz camped off aways.

Waltzs tools should be near by. Well, probably not anymore.....theres a good chance those tools have been discovered, but the lucky guy had no clue what he had found. I believe the tools in the saddle could be suspect on Waltzs having to drag them up and just leave them there? Why not leave themn in the pit? Petrasch just says that Waltz mentioned his tools were still there but they wouldn't need them.

Of course you now have a ravine going north/south in a north/south canyon that the afternoon sun shines down into....in the winter?

thats a start........

Paul,

You ever notice there is crazy folk out there that make no sense cause you aren't really listening to what they mean, but are following on what you think they mean? Later you suddenly realize it makes sense if you see it in a different light or from another angle? I believe Herman liked to tell a tale, but also wasn't going to give anyone directions to the LDM. Since he became the only survivor of the first searchers, he adapted and embellished his tale much like Dick and Brownie Holmes did. One thing we do not know is whether Herman and/or Gottfried came to Phoenix with Helene, George and Rhiney. Most indications point to no, but then did they visit before Helenes departure for the east? There seems to be a bit of a mystery with the comings and goings of the 3 Petrasch men. Jim Bark liked Gottfried enough to hire him on and Sims Ely seemed to have only good words concerning Herman. It is unfortunate we have nothing of personal accounts by these 3 from a neutral source or from their own hands. They probably had good reason to leave no paper trail.......
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Zen

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

That's the LDM you just described to the 't'. That and the 'vertical pit' are in different locations, but along the same vein.


Brad
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Zen

Post by lazarus »

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Zen

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

great description. Perfect, in fact.

"The loose earth washed into the mine because of the angle and the higher ridges around. This indicates it is in an arroyo, ravine and possibly small narrow canyon. Almost all accounts use these terms to describe the LDM.

You have to travel one way through the canyon and take the trail up and backtrack to the path leading to the mine. Again, this is pretty much the same as Holmes and Deerings accounts as we know them. Of course the tricky thing is that it is in a North to South trending canyon, but the Arroyo/canyon/ravine also seems to run North and South? "


You also wrote:

"The LDM is on a slope and could be seen from above, but not below.
Waltz did not like working the area because the pit was open to the higher ridgeline and offered no cover. He would not know if he had visitors until he came up out of the mine. This to me also explains the pit shaped like a funnel that sloped due to the terrain.

You could pass within 200 yards of it and not see it. This seems a contradiction, but I believe it means from below. That would mean the terrain, brush and trees would create a natural cover. I also believe it means the area would not get most folks interest......it would seem a dead end. This also means he could see the trail in the canyon below without being seen."


Again, this is correct. The photo was taken from the ridge, just above the pit... indeed, Jake would have been in dire trouble, had someone approached the pit from above while he was inside.

Laz
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The 'Trick'

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

You wrote:

"You approach the mine from above, but there is no passage for animals. I would take this as the approach is too steep and impassable to horses or Mules. Waltz said he hobbled the pack animals at his camp and rode to the mine and tied his horse above the mine. This also indicates the camp was a fair distance from the mine.

Oddly enough this correlates Deerings trail as well....he mentions a hole, but then changes it to a trick?"



The ‘trick of the trail’ has baffled ‘Dutchman Hunters’ for more than a century, without much of an explanation. I’ll try to demystify the concept as best I can.

The ‘trick of the trail’ consists of a simple barricade made of large stones too heavy for one or two men to move.

These stones are arranged to create a garrison, or defensive wall around a protected area, in this case, the upper shaft of the mine. The builders allow for only one small opening, a hole, so to speak, at ground level, just large enough for a man to crawl through, but not large enough for pack animals. Guards wait just inside the opening, thus any unwelcome interlopers are apt to find themselves in the undesirable position of poking their heads through the hole and being greeted by someone with an agenda.

This system was actually devised and employed by ancient native American cultures for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and examples of such holes or entrances can still be found among the ruins of these past civilizations.

I have attached a link leading to a photo of a ‘safe room’, with an example of the kind of hole described in ‘Dutchman’ lore. The photo was taken at the Pueblo Grande Indian Ruins on East Washington in Phoenix.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2183/252 ... 4872_b.jpg

Once inside the garrison the trail becomes a foot trail that intentionally wanders off in the wrong direction, leading nowhere, thus further confusing anyone who may have made it to this point.

Of course, by the time Jake arrived, there wasn’t anyone guarding the garrison, so the ‘hole’ and the ‘trick trail’ didn’t really apply. This should help explain his comments regarding the subject.

Lazarus
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The 'Trick'

Post by lazarus »

Zen,

You wrote:

"You approach the mine from above, but there is no passage for animals. I would take this as the approach is too steep and impassable to horses or Mules. Waltz said he hobbled the pack animals at his camp and rode to the mine and tied his horse above the mine. This also indicates the camp was a fair distance from the mine.

Oddly enough this correlates Deerings trail as well....he mentions a hole, but then changes it to a trick?"



The ‘trick of the trail’ has baffled ‘Dutchman Hunters’ for more than a century, without much of an explanation. I’ll try to demystify the concept as best I can.

The ‘trick of the trail’ consists of a simple barricade made of large stones too heavy for one or two men to move.

These stones are arranged to create a garrison, or defensive wall around a protected area, in this case, the upper shaft of the mine. The builders allow for only one small opening, a hole, so to speak, at ground level, just large enough for a man to crawl through, but not large enough for pack animals. Guards wait just inside the opening, thus any unwelcome interlopers are apt to find themselves in the undesirable position of poking their heads through the hole and being greeted by someone with an agenda.

This system was actually devised and employed by ancient native American cultures for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and examples of such holes or entrances can still be found among the ruins of these past civilizations.

I have attached a link leading to a photo of a ‘safe room’, with an example of the kind of hole described in ‘Dutchman’ lore. The photo was taken at the Pueblo Grande Indian Ruins on East Washington in Phoenix.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2183/252 ... 4872_b.jpg

Once inside the garrison the trail becomes a foot trail that intentionally wanders off in the wrong direction, leading nowhere, thus further confusing anyone who may have made it to this point.

Of course, by the time Jake arrived, there wasn’t anyone guarding the garrison, so the ‘hole’ and the ‘trick trail’ didn’t really apply. This should help explain his comments regarding the subject.

Lazarus
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Gotta wait till I get home to view your pictures Lazarus...

Post by Cubfan64 »

It sounds from the tone of your posts however that you feel pretty confident that you've seen the location you believe to be the source for Waltz's ore.

Does the pit area appear to still be completely filled in, or is there any appearance that it was ever re-dug out in the past? (I'm not sure how one would know, but it's one of the first questions that popped into my head).

Did you find the location by following directions, or were you in the area due to following directions and eventually just sort of "came across" the specific site by exploring the area?

Once you found the spot, were you able to go back to sort of "reverse engineer" things to make sense of the many past clues and hints?

The big question of course - did you find anything that might link the site to Peraltas or Waltz specifically? Evidence such as artifacts or possible even a small sample of ore or quartz matrix that could be tested?

Lots of questions, and I haven't even seen the pictures yet :) At least you got my attention!

As a side note, I meant to ask you awhile ago what was the name of the band you played in that performed in Nashua New Hampshire? I was going to ask around work one of these days and see if anyone remembers the name. I know you told me at the Rendevouz, but I never wrote it down and forgot it by the time I got back home.
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Cubfan64

Post by lazarus »

Cubfan64,

These are good questions.

The pit was perhaps two thirds full with rock and debris. It did not appear to have been dug out for some time, although I cannot say precisely. It had settled enough to expose the 'north trending shaft', also mostly filled with rock and debris.

I found the location by following directions.

Reverse engineering is a reasonable term for the process. There are no discrepancies.

The answer to the 'Big Question' will have to wait for now, other than yes.

The name of the band was Skate the Razor. I believe the name of the club was Red Square.

Lazarus
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Re: Cubfan64

Post by Cubfan64 »

Cubfan64,

These are good questions.

The pit was perhaps two thirds full with rock and debris. It did not appear to have been dug out for some time, although I cannot say precisely. It had settled enough to expose the 'north trending shaft', also mostly filled with rock and debris.

I found the location by following directions.

Reverse engineering is a reasonable term for the process. There are no discrepancies.

The answer to the 'Big Question' will have to wait for now, other than yes.

The name of the band was Skate the Razor. I believe the name of the club was Red Square.

Lazarus
I like the photo! Is the stone "wall" in front of you the one you are describing as the barricade? It surely looks man made, but it seems like it's too low to really provide any kind of barrier to anything on the other side. It's hard to tell from just the photo, but I could envision it being higher at one time and that it's mostly just tumbled down now.

I'm having a tough time with the "safe room" photo as I can't figure out how to scale it. It almost looks like it's a model of what you are describing and not the real thing - if I try to compare it to the tree just to the back of the photo, the hole doesn't look like it's any bigger than enough to fit my arm through. The concept makes perfect sense - it's just that certain photo that I can't get my mind around.

I HATE waiting for the answers to the big questions!! (hehe) - those are always the MOST IMPORTANT answers! I can tell you that it's tough reading about all these areas I want to explore when I'm on the whole other side of the country!

Well, as much as I hate to, I'll just have to wait for your answer to my last question. I hope you've discovered something of importance though - it would be darn exciting!

I'll ask around about your band, although I did a quick look for a club called "Red Square" in Nashua and didn't come up with anything. That means little or nothing though since most clubs don't last real long. I forgot to ask you what years you were playing out this way too.

Take care, and hopefully if you come to the Rendevouz again this fall you'll have something to answer my "big question" with :)
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

that photo is of a ruin...adobe walls...stabilized by a layer of stucco...the walls there are about two feet, approx. that hole is about large enough for a full grown person to squeeze through...not one of the 'i need a caddie' size...tiny crawl, hands and knees...
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