Garry,
"When did Mr. X locate the covered mine?"
I didn't ask him, and he didn't offer any more information than that he was the one who pointed out the location to the person who worked the mine in the 90s.
"What clues led him to this area to even look for a covered mine? If he simply stumbled over it that would be welcome information but I would probably dismiss the Waltz connection and move on to other areas of research."
Once again, I didn't ask and he didn't offer the information.
To be honest, I didn't ask him any questions at all. He offered the information and I passed it along. I think there is little more for me to add, unless I as him the questions you have asked, and see if he will give me an answer.
When I get the chance, I will ask.
Take care,
Joe
LOST OR.....FOUND?
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Joe,
I finally realized I was making some bad assumptions, largely through laziness. I finally decided to go back and reread this thread. I only got to the first page and am now sidetracked again but hopefully my present course will provide me with a better understanding of where everyone is coming from.
You referenced the book, The Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz by Jack San Felice, and that’s what I am looking at now (along with Jack Carlson’s Superstition Wilderness Trails East). I had read the San Felice book a couple of years ago and had spent some time with the Bicknell analysis but glossed over Jack’s “pit mine” story.
When I heard the expressions “covered mine” and “opening up the pit mine”, it conjured up visions of someone filling a 70 foot deep pit up with rocks and then someone else removing all of these rocks.
I now believe it was simply an abandon open mine shaft that had undergone the ravages of time.
Jack writes on page 114;
Jack later refers to this 1997 mine as the Lost Dutchman Mine and/or Lost Soldiers mine. He also calls it the “pit mine”.
Jack also shares several pictures, one of which he calls “The Pit Mine 1990s” (Page 121). He does not credit the photo so we might assume it is a picture Jack took, possibly on his hike in 1997? The photo is apparently before the ladders were installed and the mine explored. There is another photo by Jack Carlson “Ladders in the pit mine c. 2000” which indicates other people were exploring the mine by this time.
It seems that Jack San Felice hints that he stumbled upon the mine and the Dutchman clues came later. In other words, instead of following Dutchman clues to locate the mine he worked backward.
I guess I could infer that Jack is Mr. X?
Hopefully things will become clearer as we proceed.
Garry
I finally realized I was making some bad assumptions, largely through laziness. I finally decided to go back and reread this thread. I only got to the first page and am now sidetracked again but hopefully my present course will provide me with a better understanding of where everyone is coming from.
You referenced the book, The Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz by Jack San Felice, and that’s what I am looking at now (along with Jack Carlson’s Superstition Wilderness Trails East). I had read the San Felice book a couple of years ago and had spent some time with the Bicknell analysis but glossed over Jack’s “pit mine” story.
When I heard the expressions “covered mine” and “opening up the pit mine”, it conjured up visions of someone filling a 70 foot deep pit up with rocks and then someone else removing all of these rocks.
I now believe it was simply an abandon open mine shaft that had undergone the ravages of time.
Jack writes on page 114;
Jack goes on to say that he became busy and forgot about the hike for several years but while doing research on his Silver King Mine book, he discovered new clues and maps to the LDM that allowed him to unravel the mystery of Jake’s mine. “The pieces of the puzzle that were missing 9 years earlier fell into place.”“I, along with several of my contemporaries have searched for the Lost Dutchman for many years, and I have kept copious notes of my searches. About 1997 I followed an old trail in the mountains in search of old abandoned mines I followed it across some high ridges until I saw what appeared to be some an old abandon mine far below. It was in a very rough location and was tough getting to as the Manzanita and catclaw was very think. I had no time to really explore this old mine area as it was getting toward dusk. I hiked back to my vehicle and just made it back before dark. I had the eerie feeling that I was being watched while in the area of the old mine, and though I was armed I could not wait to get out of that place.
When I was at the old mine area, I did not understand the real clues to the Lost Dutchman Mine as I do now.”
Jack later refers to this 1997 mine as the Lost Dutchman Mine and/or Lost Soldiers mine. He also calls it the “pit mine”.
Jack also shares several pictures, one of which he calls “The Pit Mine 1990s” (Page 121). He does not credit the photo so we might assume it is a picture Jack took, possibly on his hike in 1997? The photo is apparently before the ladders were installed and the mine explored. There is another photo by Jack Carlson “Ladders in the pit mine c. 2000” which indicates other people were exploring the mine by this time.
It seems that Jack San Felice hints that he stumbled upon the mine and the Dutchman clues came later. In other words, instead of following Dutchman clues to locate the mine he worked backward.
I guess I could infer that Jack is Mr. X?
Hopefully things will become clearer as we proceed.
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Garry,
"I guess I could infer that Jack is Mr. X?"
You could infer that, but Jack is not the one who told me that he showed Mr. Y the mine. Jack specifically told me he had not been in the Pit Mine, so how did he come up with the drawing?
Take care,
Joe
"I guess I could infer that Jack is Mr. X?"
You could infer that, but Jack is not the one who told me that he showed Mr. Y the mine. Jack specifically told me he had not been in the Pit Mine, so how did he come up with the drawing?
Take care,
Joe
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Joe,
Larry Hannah pointed me to an old thread from 2008 that appeared on the now defunct Esposito forum. It was started by Greg Davis and entitled “Hiking Rogers Ridge”. Nice thread!
After reading Jack San Felice’s account, I suggested that Jack was the locator (Mr. X) of the “pit mine” and things proceeded from there (1997).
Your posts in Greg’s thread push the time frame back much earlier.
You wrote:
You also reiterate that the pit mine was closed at that time (1985).
While we may be dealing with semantics, regarding what closed means, it does give me pause and I may be changing my mind yet again. You can’t accuse me of not being flexible.
In Greg’s 2008 thread, he offers the following comment.
Right now my quandary is, what transpired at the mine site between 1985 and 1997? The description and possible picture from the 1990s, published in Jack’s book, doesn’t seem to jive with the description in 1985. At least in my mind.
Anyway we will keep plugging away and I’m sure my mind will change several more times before we are finished.
Garry
Larry Hannah pointed me to an old thread from 2008 that appeared on the now defunct Esposito forum. It was started by Greg Davis and entitled “Hiking Rogers Ridge”. Nice thread!
After reading Jack San Felice’s account, I suggested that Jack was the locator (Mr. X) of the “pit mine” and things proceeded from there (1997).
Your posts in Greg’s thread push the time frame back much earlier.
You wrote:
I assume two of these gentlemen were either Mr. X, Mr. Y, or Mr. Z and Jack San Felice was not one of the original three.I had dinner a week ago Saturday, with two gentlemen who had visited the mine, we have been discussing on the LDM Forum, back around 1985. They examined both caches, which had been cleaned out and took a good look at the mine. It was still covered at that time. While I have no iron-clad proof, it appears that the people who cleaned out the caches came back in 1997 and reopened the mine. IMHO, the Silver Chief "Notice of Location" does not conform with the location of that mine.
The mine in question had fairly extensive work done in 1997-99.
You also reiterate that the pit mine was closed at that time (1985).
While we may be dealing with semantics, regarding what closed means, it does give me pause and I may be changing my mind yet again. You can’t accuse me of not being flexible.
In Greg’s 2008 thread, he offers the following comment.
If I’m reading this correctly, it appears that between 1999 and 2008 the pit had filled significantly in nine years due to natural erosion It went from 90 feet deep to 30 feet deep in nine years. When the mine was viewed in 1985, it may not have been worked for decades and if the present rate of filling die to erosion is anywhere close, I can believe the mine hole, was for all practical purposes, “closed” in 1985.The shaft has collapsed and the sides of the area are caved in creating a large pit like hole. The mine cave-in hole now measures from between 25 to 30 feet deep. The original shaft was still intact and about 90 feet deep when Jack and I first saw it in 1999. Like with the World Beater, the Silver Chief is being cover up by natural erosion from the loose gravel and dirt on the very steep hillside above and behind the mine shaft. Good Silver Ore samples are still plentiful on the mine dump.
Right now my quandary is, what transpired at the mine site between 1985 and 1997? The description and possible picture from the 1990s, published in Jack’s book, doesn’t seem to jive with the description in 1985. At least in my mind.
Anyway we will keep plugging away and I’m sure my mind will change several more times before we are finished.
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Garry,
X, Y, and Z were all on that trip. As far as I know, just the three of them made the ride. They did not mention anyone else. Since two of the people were in front of me, and each confirmed the story, I do not question it.
Since I have never been to the pit mine, I can't vouch for any changes that may have occurred.
As I have said before, I was gifted the pictures and the story by a good friend. He gave me his permission to post them. I have done some research on my own, and have added some information, such as the above mentioned trip to the mine and the pictures of the ore, which Mr. Z told me he took and assured me the pieces came from the pit mine.
At the end of the tunnel there is a large room that has been blasted out of solid rock. I posted that picture earlier. The thought has come to me that the room was used as a lagre cache for ore mined elsewhere.
One thing, in my mind, is certain.......Something of value was in that mine and I doubt it was silver.
Take care,
Joe
X, Y, and Z were all on that trip. As far as I know, just the three of them made the ride. They did not mention anyone else. Since two of the people were in front of me, and each confirmed the story, I do not question it.
Since I have never been to the pit mine, I can't vouch for any changes that may have occurred.
As I have said before, I was gifted the pictures and the story by a good friend. He gave me his permission to post them. I have done some research on my own, and have added some information, such as the above mentioned trip to the mine and the pictures of the ore, which Mr. Z told me he took and assured me the pieces came from the pit mine.
At the end of the tunnel there is a large room that has been blasted out of solid rock. I posted that picture earlier. The thought has come to me that the room was used as a lagre cache for ore mined elsewhere.
One thing, in my mind, is certain.......Something of value was in that mine and I doubt it was silver.
Take care,
Joe
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
IF this pit is the lost Dutchman...regardless if this pit is the Dutchman....
the people who ravaged that area in a greedy search for wealth...are pond scum
perhaps this is why old jack gave me one nasty comment at the dons camp...then acts like I didn't exist.
go clean up your mess you self righteous asshole.
the people who ravaged that area in a greedy search for wealth...are pond scum
perhaps this is why old jack gave me one nasty comment at the dons camp...then acts like I didn't exist.
go clean up your mess you self righteous asshole.
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
oops..sorry..i thought I was in first amendment forum...oops.
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Hey Joe,
Just working out a theory, but what do you think of Ted Cox being our Mr. W?
Best - Mike
Just working out a theory, but what do you think of Ted Cox being our Mr. W?
Best - Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Hi Mike,Mike McChesney wrote:Hey Joe,
Just working out a theory, but what do you think of Ted Cox being our Mr. W?
Best - Mike
What's a "Mr. W?
Mind ain't what it used to be. Give me a little more to go on. Really good meeting you at the Rendezvous. You're a good guy!
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Donald,pippinwhitepaws wrote:IF this pit is the lost Dutchman...regardless if this pit is the Dutchman....
the people who ravaged that area in a greedy search for wealth...are pond scum
perhaps this is why old jack gave me one nasty comment at the dons camp...then acts like I didn't exist.
go clean up your mess you self righteous asshole.
That's being pretty harsh on Jack. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that he was involved with the work done on the Pit Mine.
Many folks involved with the LDM legend's are said to be somewhat full of themselves, may have been said about myself now and again, but beneath that veneer are good people. We are so often attacked for our outspoken opinions, that it becomes a natural posture of defense to be viewed as being in a belligerent mood.
You may also recognize yourself in that group as well.
Hope all is well with you,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Thanks very much Joe. It was a pleasure to meet you and your wife. I knew you were a good guy all along (if not opinionated as are we all LOL).
I was referring to Garry's evolution of people involved with the Pit Mine (Mr. W, Mr. X, Mr. Y). MrW being the man that originally worked the mine many years ago.
From what I know about the Pit Mine vs what I know about the H.E.A.T. Dig (which I must admit is decidedly limited for both subjects), they seem to be remarkably similar. For instance:
1. Both are referred to by everybody involved as the LDM.
2. Both seem to be located in the same general area.
3. Both have two cache sites nearby that had previously been emptied out.
4. Both are in hard to access places.
The differences that may be telling though (but I can't say for certain because of a lack of detailed knowledge) are:
1. The Feldmans believe the HEAT Site was nothing but a storehouse for mined ore and bullion, while the "Pit Mine" was an actual mine.
2. While there was no mention of a spring in the "Pit Mine", the pictures show what looks like white PVC Piping to the right of the ladder. So it may be that both have water at depth.
Now, I don't know any names of the people involved in the "Pit Mine" Dig, we know that the Feldmans were the folks in charge of the HEAT Dig. Please understand that I am in no way trying to cast any aspersions on the Feldmans, but "IF" they were involved in the earlier "Pit Mine" Dig, would there be any better way to legitimize anything found in an "off the books" dig?
Best - Mike
I was referring to Garry's evolution of people involved with the Pit Mine (Mr. W, Mr. X, Mr. Y). MrW being the man that originally worked the mine many years ago.
From what I know about the Pit Mine vs what I know about the H.E.A.T. Dig (which I must admit is decidedly limited for both subjects), they seem to be remarkably similar. For instance:
1. Both are referred to by everybody involved as the LDM.
2. Both seem to be located in the same general area.
3. Both have two cache sites nearby that had previously been emptied out.
4. Both are in hard to access places.
The differences that may be telling though (but I can't say for certain because of a lack of detailed knowledge) are:
1. The Feldmans believe the HEAT Site was nothing but a storehouse for mined ore and bullion, while the "Pit Mine" was an actual mine.
2. While there was no mention of a spring in the "Pit Mine", the pictures show what looks like white PVC Piping to the right of the ladder. So it may be that both have water at depth.
Now, I don't know any names of the people involved in the "Pit Mine" Dig, we know that the Feldmans were the folks in charge of the HEAT Dig. Please understand that I am in no way trying to cast any aspersions on the Feldmans, but "IF" they were involved in the earlier "Pit Mine" Dig, would there be any better way to legitimize anything found in an "off the books" dig?
Best - Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
I believe you have a fairly good handle on what has taken place at both locations. Are they connected, perhaps. Don't believe the Heat site was ever thought to be the LDM. I could, of course, be wrong.
Good luck,
Joe
I believe you have a fairly good handle on what has taken place at both locations. Are they connected, perhaps. Don't believe the Heat site was ever thought to be the LDM. I could, of course, be wrong.
Good luck,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Thanks Joe,
I thought there seemed to be too many similarities between the two to be a mere coincidence!
Here is a quote from DutchHunter.com:
Best - Mike
I thought there seemed to be too many similarities between the two to be a mere coincidence!
Here is a quote from DutchHunter.com:
From going through the dutchhunter.com site, it seemed from the various mentionings that the HEAT Folks believed that Waltz got his gold from this cave that was not a mine, but an underground storage cave balsted from solid rock solely for the purpose of warehousing already mined gold ore and dore bullion.The Lost Spanish Mine is believed to be one of the Peralta mines and one of the sources of Jacob Waltz's gold and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, the most famous lost mine in the world. Also, evidence uncovered during the expedition suggests that the mine site may also be the location of the legendary Geronimo's Ransom Cave.
Best - Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
.............. and if that is the case, then I still think the LDM is STILL lost. Waltz spent WAAAAAY too much time time talking about his "MINE" to Reinhart and Julia. To my way of thinking, even if many of the old timers made up the majority of the clues in existence, to keep outsiders looking in the wrong part of the Supers, I don't think Reiney had the werewithall (mentally) to think to change that one word of what the waltz told him to throw people off.
Best - Mike
Best - Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,Mike McChesney wrote:Thanks Joe,
I thought there seemed to be too many similarities between the two to be a mere coincidence!
Here is a quote from DutchHunter.com:
From going through the dutchhunter.com site, it seemed from the various mentionings that the HEAT Folks believed that Waltz got his gold from this cave that was not a mine, but an underground storage cave balsted from solid rock solely for the purpose of warehousing already mined gold ore and dore bullion.The Lost Spanish Mine is believed to be one of the Peralta mines and one of the sources of Jacob Waltz's gold and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, the most famous lost mine in the world. Also, evidence uncovered during the expedition suggests that the mine site may also be the location of the legendary Geronimo's Ransom Cave.
Best - Mike
I do believe it is a place for a cache, but also believe it may have been a worked out silver mine. This is all the way at the back of the mine:
Seems like a great place to store some goodies. Believe the pipe was for clearing the air in the mine, but I could be wrong.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread about two men riding up to the Pit Mine with the man who eventually opened it up. I have no doubt that the story is true.
There were two (empty) caches below the mine, but I don't recall having heard that concerning the Feldman dig. If you could talk to those two men, as I did, it would go a long way towards knowing what took place, although neither man worked on the mine. Just good background information.
Hope to see this site come back to life soon. I am really tired of the little general over on TNet.
Take care,
Joe
I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread about two men riding up to the Pit Mine with the man who eventually opened it up. I have no doubt that the story is true.
There were two (empty) caches below the mine, but I don't recall having heard that concerning the Feldman dig. If you could talk to those two men, as I did, it would go a long way towards knowing what took place, although neither man worked on the mine. Just good background information.
Hope to see this site come back to life soon. I am really tired of the little general over on TNet.
Take care,
Joe
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
The Feldman Treasure Trove site isn't a difficult location at all to get to Mike, and I never heard any stories or rumors about any cache's being located nearby.
Most folks I've listened to talk about the Treasure Trove location believe it was just a spring location that had been built up years ago to keep it running and eventually collapsed. I personally don't know for sure as I never saw it or heard any formal talk by those folks involved in the actual dig.
Most folks I've listened to talk about the Treasure Trove location believe it was just a spring location that had been built up years ago to keep it running and eventually collapsed. I personally don't know for sure as I never saw it or heard any formal talk by those folks involved in the actual dig.
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Hey Buddy,
That is not right at all. If it was just a collapsed spring, then why would the GSA/USFS grant them a Treasure Trove Permit?
A lot of what they got was based on the journals of one Ted Cox, who first worked the HEAT Dig Site in 1958. The history of the site is gone into a bit, but stops just short of talking about what was found. We are led to believe (by other parts of the site) that human remains and gold bullion are found in the Cox Dig from 1958. Its not all from the same page on the site. You have to read it over several times skipping from one page to another, and even then have to pay very close attention.
Since I have never personally been to the HEAT Site, I can only go by their website that it is hard to get to.
Best - Mike
That is not right at all. If it was just a collapsed spring, then why would the GSA/USFS grant them a Treasure Trove Permit?
dutchhunter.comIn 1958, bullion was found in what is now called the "main drift." There is also a left drift that Cox never excavated, but believed it, too, contained bullion.
A lot of what they got was based on the journals of one Ted Cox, who first worked the HEAT Dig Site in 1958. The history of the site is gone into a bit, but stops just short of talking about what was found. We are led to believe (by other parts of the site) that human remains and gold bullion are found in the Cox Dig from 1958. Its not all from the same page on the site. You have to read it over several times skipping from one page to another, and even then have to pay very close attention.
Since I have never personally been to the HEAT Site, I can only go by their website that it is hard to get to.
Best - Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Cubby,
Actually, you made my point for me. If there WAS NOTHING at the HEAT Site, then that would be a great way to legitimize anything they dug up several years earlier at the "Pit Mine" Site. Say you have all this gold from an illegal dig. You have to hide the sale from Uncle Obama (not very easy if a very large amount). Get a team together, and get a Gvt Employee on your side, take these memoirs with your evidence (? ?) and get a Treasure Trove Permit. Use your gold from the illegal dig site to salt your treasure trove site, and your illegal gold is all fresh and legal. Pay your taxes and all is well.
Mike
Actually, you made my point for me. If there WAS NOTHING at the HEAT Site, then that would be a great way to legitimize anything they dug up several years earlier at the "Pit Mine" Site. Say you have all this gold from an illegal dig. You have to hide the sale from Uncle Obama (not very easy if a very large amount). Get a team together, and get a Gvt Employee on your side, take these memoirs with your evidence (? ?) and get a Treasure Trove Permit. Use your gold from the illegal dig site to salt your treasure trove site, and your illegal gold is all fresh and legal. Pay your taxes and all is well.
Mike
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike - I believe whether they will admit it in public or not, that's almost exactly the theory a number of folks who believe the "pit mine" was/is the LDM suspect.Mike McChesney wrote:Cubby,
Actually, you made my point for me. If there WAS NOTHING at the HEAT Site, then that would be a great way to legitimize anything they dug up several years earlier at the "Pit Mine" Site. Say you have all this gold from an illegal dig. You have to hide the sale from Uncle Obama (not very easy if a very large amount). Get a team together, and get a Gvt Employee on your side, take these memoirs with your evidence (? ?) and get a Treasure Trove Permit. Use your gold from the illegal dig site to salt your treasure trove site, and your illegal gold is all fresh and legal. Pay your taxes and all is well.
Mike
I wonder if someday the truth will get out. I imagine the only real evidence that would convince most people is if ore and assays of ore taken out of that pit mine match what's commonly thought of as the ore that came from under Waltz's bed.
That said, I'm sure there are folks who could come up with reasons for not believing it.
As to the Treasure Trove site and what it was or was not. I've only looked at the Ted Cox notes a little bit - it's on my list of things to do, but that guy was a PROLIFIC writer I'm telling you!!! And his print is not particularly easy on the eyes to read - it would take some time to really dig through it all. What if the area Ted Cox was working wasn't really the Roger's Spring site, but was actually the Pit Mine???
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,Mike McChesney wrote:Hey Buddy,
That is not right at all. If it was just a collapsed spring, then why would the GSA/USFS grant them a Treasure Trove Permit?
dutchhunter.comIn 1958, bullion was found in what is now called the "main drift." There is also a left drift that Cox never excavated, but believed it, too, contained bullion.
A lot of what they got was based on the journals of one Ted Cox, who first worked the HEAT Dig Site in 1958. The history of the site is gone into a bit, but stops just short of talking about what was found. We are led to believe (by other parts of the site) that human remains and gold bullion are found in the Cox Dig from 1958. Its not all from the same page on the site. You have to read it over several times skipping from one page to another, and even then have to pay very close attention.
Since I have never personally been to the HEAT Site, I can only go by their website that it is hard to get to.
Best - Mike
In the Feldman's agreement with the government they were to open up the spring for wildlife that frequent that area. The site was to be left in better shape than when they started.
As for what Ted Cox wrote, most of the old timers who knew him personally, had some doubts as to his veracity.
On the other hand, his brother was held in higher esteem. The people who worked the Pit Mine had a very well thought out plan. I believe it included someone from inside the Forest Service. That belief is not unfounded.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
Forgot to ask........"In 1958, bullion was found in what is now called the "main drift." There is also a left drift that Cox never excavated, but believed it, too, contained bullion."
Have you seen any evidence or documentation that would support that claim? I saw the same story that you did, and believe it was just a story.
Take care,
Joe
Forgot to ask........"In 1958, bullion was found in what is now called the "main drift." There is also a left drift that Cox never excavated, but believed it, too, contained bullion."
Have you seen any evidence or documentation that would support that claim? I saw the same story that you did, and believe it was just a story.
Take care,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,
Forgot to ask........"In 1958, bullion was found in what is now called the "main drift." There is also a left drift that Cox never excavated, but believed it, too, contained bullion."
Have you seen any evidence or documentation that would support that claim? I saw the same story that you did, and believe it was just a story.
Take care,
Joe
Hey Joe,
That all plays very neatly into my theory. I think that as the years progressed the group would have processed the ore from the Pit Mine into rough dore bars to make it easier to store. Then, used The Cox notes and maybe one of their bars as evidence to get the Treasure Trove Permit. Dig themselves deep into the HEAT Site, open up that left drift mentioned in the Cox Notes, and "find" a bunch of dore bars. As long as everything found was accounted for, and all the proper fees and taxes paid, Uncle Sam would have no reason to test the bars or worry about any previous digs. All they care about is that everything is accounted for and taxes paid. Case closed.
My personal theory as to what happened from the 1990s Pit Mine Dig was that once they got all that gold/silver/platinum/fairy dust/etc, they realized just how hard it would be to keep the whole thing under the table once they tried to unload all the product. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that the location of the Pit Mine meant that if their secret was found out, they stood to lose EVERYTHING (and possibly spend time in jail). When you have everything in front of you, that is the time to do a COST/BENEFIT Analysis of whether to maximize profits and keep everything a secret (and risk losing everything possibly going to jail), or maximize security and negotiate a deal with Uncle Sam. You come away with a lot less, but you don't have to worry about losing the lot or jail time.
Best - Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
Mike,
Good theory! Here's some more:
What if they found a NEW vein in an existing mine that they owned? What if they sold the gold to a private buyer.....no paperwork or income reports to the IRS?
The prospectors in the AJ area are a fairly close knit society. They meet on a regular basis for breakfast......say once a week or so. Newcomers may find them to be too closely knit for them to get their foot in the door. I am outside that little club, but do know about it.
I have heard that there were a number of private buyers and meetings prior to 1976.
Take care,
Joe
Good theory! Here's some more:
What if they found a NEW vein in an existing mine that they owned? What if they sold the gold to a private buyer.....no paperwork or income reports to the IRS?
The prospectors in the AJ area are a fairly close knit society. They meet on a regular basis for breakfast......say once a week or so. Newcomers may find them to be too closely knit for them to get their foot in the door. I am outside that little club, but do know about it.
I have heard that there were a number of private buyers and meetings prior to 1976.
Take care,
Joe
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Mike McChesney
- Expert
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
- Location: Arizona Vagrant
Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?
I like it other than: Why do the Treasure Trove Permit hassle, when everything was already sold, and the HEAT Site was known to be simply a caved in spring?
If there were a new vein, in an existing mine, they wouldn't need a treasure trove permit. Law states that if a new vein is found in an existing mine, then a person may legally claim that mine even if its in a wilderness, National Forest area. As long as it is in an existing mine.
I would think that if they found the LDM (beyond doubt), that all they would have to do is file a new claim on an existing mine.
Unless I am mistaken.
Mike
If there were a new vein, in an existing mine, they wouldn't need a treasure trove permit. Law states that if a new vein is found in an existing mine, then a person may legally claim that mine even if its in a wilderness, National Forest area. As long as it is in an existing mine.
I would think that if they found the LDM (beyond doubt), that all they would have to do is file a new claim on an existing mine.
Unless I am mistaken.
Mike