LOST OR.....FOUND?

[djui5]

Some interesting history and stats on the Randolf Mining District. This is from a book that was written in 1878. Note the mention of the road to within 2 miles of the mines coming from Phoenix! Did this road run through Barks Draw past the South side of Coffee Flat, or did it come around from the South?


The same mineral belt continnes north-west-erly towards Superstition mountains where in February, 1877, an old Arizonian named Garrett discovered a ledge averaging forty feet in width, probably the largest found in this part of Arizona, and plainly traceable for three miles, which he named the "Randolph". The district is called by this name, and also by that of "Pine Grove", from its proximity (six miles) to large supplies of that timber; it is not likely to suffer for want of names, being also designated the "Reynolds". The district is about ten miles north-west of the Silver King, thirty miles north of Florence, and about the same distance east of Phoenix, from which there is a good road to within two miles of the mines. Shortly after the discovery of the Randolph on which there were recently thirteen locations, another ledge was discovered on the other side of the ridge, which was called the "Sky-Blue" from the color of the ore; and a third in the vicinity was called the "Silver Chief". The ore of all these ledges is high grade and in great quantity. The Randolph crops out in some places twenty five to forty feet in height, and all the croppings show mineral. The ore is perfectly free milling, mostly chlorides and carbonates of silver. Assays are from $100 to $2,000 per ton, and it is claimed average $500. Next north from the discovery claim is the "Kentuck" followed by the "Manhattan" and "Knickerbocker". Several assays from the "Sky blue" and the adjoining "Hidden Treasure" average $460. The Guanajuato assays $3,000; the ledge is 200 feet in width, and the estimated monthly yield seventy-five tons of ore per month, at $2,000 per ton! Mr Kearsing, the assayer of Pioneer district, made several assays from the Randolph district which from $300 to $34 per ton. One quartz mill is contracted for and others are in prospect.

[djui5]

Also to note is how incredibly rich in Silver these mines are! Those are 1878 prices. Imagine what they would be worth these days.

[Cubfan64]

Didn't PWP make mention a few times about a road that used to run out there? I'll have to search for his comments again unless of course he sees this thread.

Isn't it phenomenal that so many of those old books with expired copyrights are being released in different digital and/or downloadable formats!!!???

[pippinwhitepaws]

the old road is still there...mostly...
from silver queen to pinal...mostly along the line of route 60, at pinal, the road went out west...the road is still intact there...from the site of the pyrilite crusher, mr. robbins ran the place when i was a kid, follow out to hewitts ranch...this portion follows queen creek east...then from hewitts to whitlow ranch...from whitlow, through the pass to the west...out onto the flats west to mesa...
on this road, one had to turn north just west of whitow's ranch to get to the bark's ranch house.

the 1900 topographical map has the route marked.

[pippinwhitepaws]

also...there was the proposed, private funded, road to globe...roughly from bark ranch...up randolf...to pinto creek...never completed. in 1870?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

Not everyone may know where you got your quotes, so I will take the liberty of mentioning Richard J. Hinton's 1877 book, "The Handbook to Arizona". The passage you quoted is found on page 140.

I have used the book as a reference many times. My own copy came from the ASU Libraries, and for some reason was released from their ownership. It's a limited edition of 1,000 copies, with the first 50 being bound in deluxe cowhide covers. Mine is number 21, and I feel fortunate to have it.

There are 431 pages, not counting the Appendix and the interesting adds at the end of the book. I can't imagine trying to read this book on the Internet, but I suppose it's been done.

I would reccomend the book to anyone interested in the history of Arizona.

Joe Ribaudo

[Cubfan64]

Randy,

Not everyone may know where you got your quotes, so I will take the liberty of mentioning Richard J. Hinton's 1877 book, "The Handbook to Arizona". The passage you quoted is found on page 140.

I have used the book as a reference many times. My own copy came from the ASU Libraries, and for some reason was released from their ownership. It's a limited edition of 1,000 copies, with the first 50 being bound in deluxe cowhide covers. Mine is number 21, and I feel fortunate to have it.

There are 431 pages, not counting the Appendix and the interesting adds at the end of the book. I can't imagine trying to read this book on the Internet, but I suppose it's been done.

I would reccomend the book to anyone interested in the history of Arizona.

Joe Ribaudo

Strange that the digital copy online has 1878 at the bottom of the title page, but "entered according to Act of Congress in the year 1877 by Richard Hinton." I suppose that could be the difference between writing data and publishing date - no matter I suppose.

It really is amazing how many old books are available to read online now! Not only is it VERY handy, but it's WAY cheaper!!

And Joe - rest assured it WILL be read online by at least one person (and probably at least 2)

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

I noticed the 1878 date on the title page, but the book was first published in 1877.

I will be happy to provide you with the information you asked for.

Take care,

joe

[djui5]

Randy,

Joe Ribaudo

Yeah, that's the book. The copyright expired on the book and it is now available online. Fascinating reading to say the least:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ewINAA ... =1#PPP1,M1

[lazarus]

Joe,

I found out a great deal more about the chapel on Jackson. No doubt about it.

'Air Lane' is Jackson Street, by the way, and Jackson was the first street in the valley named (re-named) by the new residents (Swilling-Dupa).

I often forget that you don't actually live in the valley. It's easy to understand why someone not intimately familiar with the area might not see the whole picture.

Early in the game, you questioned why anyone would settle in such a barren location. It was nothing of the sort. In fact, Jackson was indeed the closest trail to the river, with a river crossing nearby. The area was already heavily populated with both, Indian and Mexican residents when Swilling and company arrived, thus the area could not be annexed for that very reason... it was already a community. (El Salado)

Ultimately, the chapel proved too close to the river, and was repeatedly damaged by floods until little remained but the foundation, and a partially collapsed bell tower. The area was already slum dwellings, and following yet another flood, (1931 I believe,) the entire section, including the railroad tracks, was washed away. The area was later cleared as part of the Federal Slum Removal Act, which documented evidence of both Indian and Mexican construction at the site.

In fact, the Pueblo Grande museum, located just down the street, along the same old trail, is currently running an exhibit called 'Beneath the Runways' on Indian and Mexican ruins found along that stretch. ( Dutch Ruin & Pueblo Salado)

http://phoenix.gov/PUEBLO/exairarc.html

As for the bell, it was repaired in a machine shop, probably right there in the area. The wedding chapel was constructed from the ruins, not by some teenager, but close enough... the Junior Chamber of Commerce.

The real value of my research into the chapel has been a greater understanding of how events unfolded along the riverbanks, and subsequent trails. I don't mind you jacking my chain on the subject at all, as it helped keep it fresh in my mind. Like it or not, without pressure from you, I probably would have never chased it down as thoroughly.


Brad

[lazarus]

Joe,

by the way,
thanks for visiting my blogs.


Laz

[JeffM]

I am a new guy here and I must say that I was sad to read the last post. For some reason I wanted to hear much more on the is subject. At first I was kind of bummed that this just may be the LDM. But I did get over it. I know some don't want to talk about the pit mine, however, I do have a question. Where would one cash in the gold without being questioned? Is ther any other info available about this dig anywhere else?

[Joe Ribaudo]

JeffM,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

I would imagine you would find a gold mine for sale, buy it, and find a new vein. You can figure out the rest on your own.

There is no other information available on this particular pit mine, unless you buy the story that it is the Silver Chief.

Joe Ribaudo

[JeffM]

Thanks Joe. I know some are not sharing everything they know about this, however, no one saw anyone working that mine in those three years? How did it get pinpointed to 97,98 and 99? They only worked it in the summer because there was less traffic, as in hikers?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Jeff,

I would say you are correct about hikers, but there is another reason as well.........

The timeline was figured out by dates on the trash they left. It's possible that those dates are inaccurate, but they are close.

I have never been to the mine and have no personal knowledge that I could call "fact". I was gifted the pictures, the timeline, inside information and created my own conjecture.

In the final analysis, I believe I have come pretty close to the truth here. There is other evidence, which I developed/found on my own, and that will remain with me.

Joe Ribaudo

[CLD]

Just a couple question's Joe. Did he find enough gold to make 20 men millionares ? Was there a vein of oxidized hematite? Was the mine in a "hidden valley" ?

[Joe Ribaudo]

CLD,

"I have never been to the mine and have no personal knowledge that I could call "fact". I was gifted the pictures, the timeline, inside information and created my own conjecture."

I don't believe every "clue" that has come down the pike, concerning the LDM. If they were all true, it would have been found shortly after Waltz's death.

"New" clues are surfacing every day. Having never searched for the LDM, on my own, I will leave it to others......like you, to follow those many clues.

Good luck!

Joe Ribaudo

[CLD]

Joe,
oops...better start reading the whole shebang before I chime in with my two cents worth. I was trying to cite clues directly attributed to Jacob Waltz and not others who gave their own "supposed" clues to the mine. There is gold and silver all over the Supes if you look for gold and silver and not just for silly landmarks. That mine could have been in a dozen different locations. A guy could get rich from maybe 20 that I know of...if he wanted to circumvent the law that that old fox C-or-bin had pushed through. Oh oops, I guess he was AGAINST that law going through. hee hee "Just some good old boys" I think is how the song goes. Peace in the new year

[Joe Ribaudo]

CLD,

The post where I made that statement was only four posts ago, but it's no big deal.

No one can say for sure what Jacob Waltz ever said......directly. It's constantly proved on this Forum and elsewhere, that history gets changed one word at a time. Eventually Waltz becomes a cross-dresser.

In my opinion, you can't do much better than what Julia and Rhiney told Jim Bark, and you can probably discard some of that. The story just gets bigger every year.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

One of the things I find interesting about this particular mine, is how it seems to be located in a couplle of different places. The same thing happened to another historical mine......The Bully Bueno. I believe it is shown on maps or described, in different documents, in at least three locations in the Bradshaw Mountains. In all of that, I have not seen it's actual location indicated once.

In that respect, the LDM must be the grandaddy of all multiple locations. It has been found so many times and in so many locations that it makes your head spin trying to keep up with them all. It continues today, with even a few of our own members "finding" Jake's mine on a semi-regular basis.

Two members of my own family "found" the LDM. Both convinced others that they had the real thing. Neither produced a speck of pay-dirt. Relatively speaking, their claims weren't all that far apart, but many others have left the Superstition Range altogether for their "find".

Has anyone here ever thought they had found the LDM, only to find out it was a barren, worthless hole? Would you admit it if you had? I can laugh at my own Jesuit Treasure search, and have no trouble telling the story. We all do foolish things in our lives.

Those are the kinds of stories that can make us all smile.

Joe Ribaudo

[Cubfan64]

Hi Joe - sorry to be such a strangerer lately, but life is REALLY interfering with my hobbies as of late!! I still find the time to read posts, but can't seem to find the time to give any well thought out responses.

Something you said sort of struck me:

Has anyone here ever thought they had found the LDM, only to find out it was a barren, worthless hole? Would you admit it if you had?

I'd be willing to bet that a good portion of the people who "found" the location of the Lost Dutchman only to find it empty and barren still believe they found the mine. They just believe they found it too late and it was cleaned out by someone else. It's a rare person imho who can spend years following a lead only to come to the conclusion that it was a false one from the start.

Pride gets in the way and those people just can't allow themselves to think that they may have "wasted" much of their lives based on a false premise. My only hope is that most of them can look back and feel that the pursuit and adventures along the road are what the real treasures were and that NOTHING was ever truly wasted.

Despite my age, I'm still on my first few footsteps of that adventure

[don]

To re-find something,you have to ASSUME it was there in the first place.Sounds a rather obvious thing to say,of course....so why did I say it?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

Hope all is well with you and the family.


I would say you are probably making a good bet there. However, the mine in question in this thread had something left for the people who found it. I have serious doubts it was silver, as the price was just too low for the risks that were taken. On my friends ride up there in 1985, the two caches were presented as.....just that.

I look back at the time I spent in the Superstitions as one long adventure. Knowing what I know now, I would do it all over again. Not one day was ever "wasted" in those mountains, as you are beginning to learn. I envy your "first few footsteps" and the things you will see for the first time.

Looks like no one is willing to share their "I found it" stories.

I know your work load is heavy these days, but many people have bigger problems......like not having a job at all. Consider yourself blessed.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

I have serious doubts it was silver, as the price was just too low for the risks that were taken.

You seem to have more faith than I do my friend. Not knowing what was taken out of the mine is a big kicker for me. Coulda been a thousand things. What if it was Platinum? Worth a lot of money, yet still not the Gold we seek in the LDM Even large amounts of Silver could warrant that kinda work.

Looks like no one is willing to share their "I found it" stories.

Joe

I haven't found anything personally, so no story here If I ever do I'm not sure I'd tell anyone publicly. Too many people out there want to steal things. Could you imagine the stampede that would incur had you stated publicly you found the LDM with ore to match? I'd be willing to bet 50,000 people would flock to the site in a years time. What a nightmare.

Glad to hear your still alive and kickin Paul. Tell the Mrs. I said hello.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

Good to hear from you. I trust all is well with you and the family. Carolyn and I are doing fine, although I have gone through a few rough spots lately. Feeling pretty good now, and expect to be fine on the 4th.

Faith beats "coulda" for me, especially when there is hard evidence to back it up. Sometimes the way a story is denied tells as much as a confession.

I was not asking for stories of success, but stories of failure. I reckon they outnumber success' 1,000 to 1. When we found that outcropping in Little Boulder, and that detector pegged, we all thought we had found the true end of the Stone Map Trail. Since it was in the middle of the physical triangle, It seemed a no-brainer.


You are probably right. It was likely Silver, Platinum or maybe even......Diamonds.

Take care,

Joe