LOST OR.....FOUND?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply

IS THIS THE LDM?

YES
7
28%
NO
18
72%
 
Total votes: 25

User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

Glad you are doing well Joe :) Everything is fine here. Just brought home a 1974 Jeep CJ-6. Quite the rare beast. Gonna restore it. Should be fun.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Post by zentull »

Best I got was some guys in their early twenties around the mid to late seventies had a map. How and where they acquired it I can only guess. I never saw the map. They searched around Weavers Needle around the base and had a few shots fired at them in the process. They were pretty secretive and I had no real idea what they were looking for, but found out years later from one of the guys brother that they were sure they were really close. They were big on the whole Piper/Jones stuff at the time.

I had to be around 11 or 12 when they were up there and didn't believe much in the LDM or most of the campfire stories. I do remember we camped at Pinon one time and they had some dynamite, but I stuck around camp. I believe I had a little common sense when I was younger. The same 2 guys were back onto another LDM years later and we had a good laugh at their claim that they were right this time! That was at least 10 years later and they were around Squaw at that point. I believe Jake gave them that info, since they lived around metro center and that was where the source had been. That was the end of their joint search cause they had a falling out after that.

There were a bunch of Delta pilots that thought they had it and were going to write a book, but I haven't been able to track down the story any further. This was in the late sixties or early seventies. My Dad can't remember where they were camped and none of them seem to be around anymore. There is a chance that Monte was involved with that group. My Dad said they had a few trailers to stay at when they came in to town for their searches.

There were a couple of guys up in Pistol canyon I remember, but they never seemed to move from camp unless nature called. They pointed up the canyon and said the LDM was where they thought it was, but didn't know how to clear it cause they were being watched 24-7. I never saw anyone watching them, but since it was a nice spot for a free meal and a campfire, I never pushed it much.

People were pretty secretive in their failures the way I remember it.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Good Bad Stories......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

To be honest, you are the one I expected to hear some stories from. Most people can't really laugh at themselves. I suppose it has something to do with how much of their lives they invest in their dreams.
Personally, I never let my hobbies or dreams interfere with my life. Reality seldom lives up to the fantasies. I expect you have kept your own priorities in line as well.

There are many stories of treasure on the north side of Weaver's Needle. I believe Bob Brady's cave of gold bars was actually on the west side of Needle Canyon rather than on Bluff Spring. One of the Stone Map X's also ends up over there as well as Dale Howard's cave. Wherever you can make a little smoke, you can build a fire.

Must be thousands of those kinds of stories for the Supes, most never told. Your stories were interesting, thanks for the telling.

Take care,

Joe
CLD
Part Timer
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Queen Creek, AZ

Next page back

Post by CLD »

Joe said "You are probably right. It was likely Silver, Platinum or maybe even......Diamonds. "
Maybe the diamonds were itty bitty teensy weensy ones and Joe just didn't look close enough?... :D
Shhh...........Ok now bite me!
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

A few years ago I asked Jesse Feldman what he thought of this mine being the LDM. I believe his exact words were..."Joe, everyone knows the Silver Chief is a silver mine". I respect Jesse's knowledge of the mountains and it's history, but was sure he was wrong about this being the Silver Chief.

Friday night, Jesse crossed over to the dark side, and stated that he believed the "Silver Chief" was the LDM.
He then proceeded to list the reasons for that conclusions. I believe he said he felt the men who last worked it took the ore out on horses.

I have been saying the same thing for years, thanks to the information given to my by my good friend Dave Leach, but it was nice to see Jesse finally agree with me. Actually, I think a number of well known members of the LDM community feel the same way. Beyond that, I think a number of those people know it for a fact.

There are many reasons for and against this being the LDM, but someone(s) thought enough of it to put their collective asses on the line for three years in a row. Jesse and Jack SanFelice have included pictures and stories on this pit mine in their books. This mine has been around since the 1800's. Why is so much attention being paid to it now?

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

This is a copy of the Silver Chief claim document and a map of the location of the pit mine, and the Silver Chief mine:
SILVER CHIEF CLAIM.jpg
SILVER CHIEF CLAIM.jpg (81.5 KiB) Viewed 15653 times
SILVER CHIEF MAP.jpg
SILVER CHIEF MAP.jpg (81.05 KiB) Viewed 15653 times
Joe Ribaudo
copsm09
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:13 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by copsm09 »

Found, I have recently read the book "The Conclusion to the Original Peralta Stone Maps". I strongly suggest that anyone who is interested in the Peralta Stone Maps get a copy of this book. It is most Spectacular and Amazing.
goldieminer
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:17 am

Re:

Post by goldieminer »

djui5 wrote:Glad you are doing well Joe :) Everything is fine here. Just brought home a 1974 Jeep CJ-6. Quite the rare beast. Gonna restore it. Should be fun.
Fun. It's fun. Can't believe you still have it. gonna cost you lots of gas

__________________
Virtue Palladian HYIP.
Voted best new starter by HYIP Tipping / tips Insiders.
Scam Prevention, Cheat Death.
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by djui5 »

goldieminer wrote: Fun. It's fun. Can't believe you still have it. gonna cost you lots of gas
Do I know you?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Been a while since I posted here. I think Bill Riley was still around then! HAHAHA

This is a great thread. I have learned some new and wondrous things.

Best-Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Mike,

Good to see you back on the best LDM Forum in existence. Man could spend a great deal of time, and get one hell of a education, just going over past posts. Not much going on these days, but the history here beats all the other sites cold.

This topic has a lot to offer any LDM enthusiast. It all started when a very good friend of mine showed me the pictures shown here, and told me the story. He was not involved in any way with the dig, but found it from evidence available to everyone. Since then, I have stumbled on additional evidence pointing to the people he originally concluded had last worked the mine.

You should read the whole thing. Unfortunately you will have to wade through some of pip's vitriol.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Oh, I have read the whole thread today. I love it.

I started a new one on TN about LDM vs. LDC (caches). It references Henry Burns and Chuck Crawford.

I guess that's my next move is to sift through the archives here. I used to love this forum. Just hated (it was really love/hate) having to fight my way through every thread. HAHAHA.

Best-Mike
rfj
Greenhorn
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:11 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by rfj »

Wasn't there some evidence of possibly a couple of caches found at the site of this new "Silver Chief" mine, or do I have this confused with something I read elsewhere?
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Mike McChesney »

The only cache I have heard of that was supposedly found was one of Waltz'. It was supposedly found by Henry Burns in the 1950s.

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hawk,

I have been told that it's ok to use a metal detector in the Supes, just not legal to dig up what you detect. Same official who told me that also said it's a grey area...... 8O

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hawk,

A grey area to me would mean it could be viewed as legal or illegal.....depending on who is doing the viewing. I took a detector into the mountains every year for my last six trips. Never once saw the law while in the mountains, but we stayed away from the maintained trails. Sounds like that's what you have in mind, but if you camp in one place long enough you will probably have company.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Superstition Wilderness Rules on Metal Detector Use

Post by Roger »

Hawkshaw,

I have an old Tonto National Forest publication dated August/1992 that gives a little detail on the use of metal detectors in the Superstition Wilderness which I have uploaded to my photo album on the Members Photo Gallery. Click on the link at the top left of this web page labeled "Member Photo Gallery" and go to page 3 and find "Rogers Album" and then click on it to open. The first item is the publication titled:

"Mining, Prospecting, and Searching for Treasure in Wilderness Areas of the Tonto National Forest"

The document is dated, but it does give you an idea of what is allowed/disallowed on metal detector use. You can get the Tonto National Forest Ranger's office number from the below link and see if the rules are still current if you are interested in that detail.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsint ... st-%20Home

Good luck with your adventures!!!

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

For those who keep wanting to see the ore from the Pit Mine, I have been assured by the man who took these pictures, that this ore came from it. He would be in a position to know that:

Image

It has been tested.

Joe
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Cubfan64 »

Those aren't the photos I expected to see - the Kochera ore photos I've seen aren't the same as those. Hmmmm.
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by novice »

Joe,

I assume since you posted the photos, you are willing to discuss them?

I may have been down this road before.

When were the photos taken? (Year) If you don’t know, you should. :) I won’t ask who took them.

What do you mean when you say they have been tested? Were these “particular” pieces tested? If so what kind of nondestructive tests were done. Have you seen the results or only been told that they were tested?

Since you believe this pit mine may be the LDM, How was it located? Using Dutchman clues, etc.

If it was covered, how did the locator find it? I know the Forest Service has filled and covered mines in the Supes, could this have been the case for your mine? What year did the original (contemporary) locator find the covered mine? Did he just stumble across it?

Garry
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by novice »

As I understand this LDM story, there are three contemporary individuals who were involved in the pit mine which some people believe was Jacob Waltz’s LDM.

Mr. X – He was the person who first made note of the location of an abandon mine.
Mr. Y – He was the person who opened up the abandon mine and explored it.
Mr. Z – He was the person who took the photos of Joe’s picture of the ore. (Allegedly from this pit mine)

I assumed that since Mr. Y opened up the mine, the mine had been covered. Maybe a bad assumption, I guess the mine could have been open as no one has shared the condition of the mine when it was found.

In the theory being proposed it would seem that Jacob Waltz was somehow tied to this mine and I’m sure someone has worked through a scenario that ties all of the details together, hence their conclusion. They just haven’t shared any of it for public discussion.

Maybe we can start simple. If it was covered, the immediate question that comes to mind is who covered it? I don’t want an absolute conclusion but simply what the scenario suggests.

1. The Spanish
2. The Apache
3. Jacob Waltz
4. The Forest Service
5. Other

At least this provides me a starting point.

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

novice wrote:As I understand this LDM story, there are three contemporary individuals who were involved in the pit mine which some people believe was Jacob Waltz’s LDM.

Mr. X – He was the person who first made note of the location of an abandon mine.
Mr. Y – He was the person who opened up the abandon mine and explored it.
Mr. Z – He was the person who took the photos of Joe’s picture of the ore. (Allegedly from this pit mine)

I assumed that since Mr. Y opened up the mine, the mine had been covered. Maybe a bad assumption, I guess the mine could have been open as no one has shared the condition of the mine when it was found.

In the theory being proposed it would seem that Jacob Waltz was somehow tied to this mine and I’m sure someone has worked through a scenario that ties all of the details together, hence their conclusion. They just haven’t shared any of it for public discussion.

Maybe we can start simple. If it was covered, the immediate question that comes to mind is who covered it? I don’t want an absolute conclusion but simply what the scenario suggests.
1. The Spanish
2. The Apache
3. Jacob Waltz
4. The Forest Service
5. Other

At least this provides me a starting point.

Garry
Garry,

I would say you are correct on X, Y and Z. I would probably add W, who first worked the mine.

As for the mine being covered, When Y took X and one other person up to the mine in the 80s, it was covered. That other person is who took the photo's I posted and he told me the mine was covered. He was shown two empty caches on the way up to the mine. He also told me he knew the ore shown in the single picture comlposed of four pictures came from the pit mine.

I have no idea who covered the mine, with any certainty, but we do have the Waltz deathbed story from Holmes. Unless that story is true, I don't see how guessing who covered it up has any value.

I don't know exactly when the pictures were taken, but I assume late 80s to early 90s. I know who took those pictures and what was claimed to be the source. That, by the way, was a story that I never believed. We have done some research into that source.

Hope that gives you some direction to research, but I doubt it. Those track are pretty well covered.

I can tell you the entire story, which I think I have already done, in private.

Take care,

Joe
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by novice »

Joe,

Thanks for the response.

Maybe I have the timeline wrong, but I understood the pit mine was opened up in the 1995 to 1997 timeframe.

If the photos were taken in the late 80s or early 90s then the ore came form the two empty caches? Is that correct? Did Mr. Z describe the appearance and approximate location of the empty caches?

How did Mr. Z know the ore came from the pit mine if it hadn't been opened yet? Was he simply told the ore in the caches came from the pit mine? Or did he see ore later that came from the pit mine and he thought it was a match?

Why would Mr. W cover the mine or anyone else for that matter if they knew there was still a rich vein that was unmined?

I don't know how deep the pit mine was but my impression is that it would take a a lot of work to fill it in and even more work to uncover it. I would tend to believe the individual or individuals covering it weren't planning to return. Sounds like a lot of work?

I guess I'm probably confused.

Is Mr. W Jacob Waltz?

BTW, I haven't voted yet! :)


Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

While X, Y and Z are known to me, I doubt anyone can say I doubt anyone can say exactly who W would be. It seems possible that it's Waltz, but that seems like a guess, at best.

Another thought that came to me, is that the pit mine was cleaned out, and became a place
to hide ore that was mined from another location.

Mr. Z was very close to Mr. Y. He may have just taken his word for it. Z was working for the Forest Service, and may have been more involved than he told me. 8O

Take care,

Joe
novice
Expert
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Re: LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by novice »

Joe,

I think things are beginning to come into focus and you and I appear to be on different paths. I am interested in the suggestion that this “pit mine” is the LDM and I only having a passing interest the 1995 story and forward.

My parameters are that if the “pit mine” is a candidate for the LDM we must have some reasonable scenario that ties this particular mine to Jacob Waltz.

I may be missing the boat but all of this talk that we have a baseline for what Dutchman ore looks like and making comparisons of other ores is simply a dead end for me.

In that vein, about the only seemingly pertinent information I have to work with is the fact that the mine was covered when it was located by Mr. X. From there we can then attempt to work backward to Waltz and ask why, what, where, when and how questions.

From my perspective, Mr. X (the locator) is where the trail back to Jacob Waltz has to start.

When did Mr. X locate the covered mine?

What clues led him to this area to even look for a covered mine? If he simply stumbled over it that would be welcome information but I would probably dismiss the Waltz connection and move on to other areas of research.

How did he spot a mine that had been covered for over 100 years and had certainly undergone a lot of healing? Or had it been covered more recently?

Why did he believe it was the LDM? Or did he? Is calling the mine the LDM simply a way to catch people’s attention?

If we had the detailed discovery story from Mr. X, I don’t think it would take long to decide whether the claim of this “pit mine” being the LDM was worth pursuing.

Garry
Post Reply