LOST OR.....FOUND?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply

IS THIS THE LDM?

YES
7
28%
NO
18
72%
 
Total votes: 25

TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

The problem with clues is that there is far too many clues. The same thing
with all the stories. When it comes right down to it, we all believe what we want to.

Personally, I will continue to lean toward the maps that are known to come
out of Mexico and they do not lead to the Pinto Creek area.

Terry
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe - Is the mine location you're discussing here the same as this one? I'm assuming so, but wanted to make sure I was right.

http://www.dutchhunter.com/brief_history.htm
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

The Feldman Dig.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

The Feldman dig is at another location. His books are works of fiction and it's altogether possible the dig was part of a plan to stimulate book sales. Not saying that's fact, just that it's possible.

IMHO, the best book ever written on the LDM was done by Dr. Thomas Glover. At this time, he can't get it reprinted because of the limited interest in the subject and, by extension, slow book sales.

Remember, his book is (self proclaimed) "fiction".

That said, his dig is in the same area as the mine.

Take care,

Joe
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Post by Cubfan64 »

Thanks for clearing that up - for some reason I was under the impression they were one in the same.

I don't know if I told you or not, but I was able to get a copy of Dr. Glover's book a few months ago. It was a reasonable price online and I snagged it while I had the opportunity.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Books.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

Picked up a signed first edition last month for $50. It appears unread.
If the book does not get reprinted, it might turn out to be a good investment.

Joe
pippinwhitepaws
Expert
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

insults and wonderful photo's of garbage do not support your position. which is delusion.
1.) honest and trained historians/anthropologists do locate the midden around ruins to date the site...duh.
2.) your photo's do not show a historic presence in the area. i am sure the pioneer prospectors did not use 1980's plastic oil containers or paper diapers.
3.) iron mountain has a long and active mining history. ( history that can be proved, not what you believe is history.) mineral rights east of pinto creek, north of iron mountain belong to magma copper company...so who was highgrading?
4.) if this is the " LOST DUTCHMAN", then it proves he was high grading, as most "honest" people believed at the time.
your need to be the 'expert' who is in possession of special information, and only this information is factual, lends honest historians to question
your motivations.

where's the gold? where are the bones of the men murdered by the natives or waltz? where are the tools thrown into the pit by the apache? where are the timbers used to close the mine?
too many blanks in the storie...to be filled in by the 'expert'.
your grand claims are without merit.
pippinwhitepaws
Expert
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

oh...by the way, when you open a thread, asking for educated opinions, and the educated opinion does not agree with your self-serving position...well it is demeaning to go on like that joey.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Maps.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

Even though I have never physically searched for the LDM, after a lifetime of researching the history of Jacob Waltz, I felt I knew where that ravine was. There is a mine up there, but it does not fit the description like this one.

I did not dismiss the possibility that this could be the LDM because it did not come anywhere close to my conclusions as to where the mine should be.

After examining the evidence, and considering the history of the mine, I am leaning toward's it being at this location. One of the things that has pushed me in that direction, is the number of people with a vested interest in the LDM remaining LOST, who have claimed this mine is the Silver Chef. They should know better.

Take care,

Joe
pippinwhitepaws
Expert
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

what a giggle.
when i proposed that a late spanish-early mexican period pit mine could be located in superior, ( the mineralized district) joe was among the leaders in pooin the idea that anyone would have dug a mine in that area at the time in question, nor could it be one of the 'peralta mines'....'picket post does not look like a sombreo...'
anyone who wishs may go investigate that twin pit i found up in superior...at least it will give those of you who wish to see what a filled, pit mine of the looks like.
now it turns out...that here we are at the northwest edge of that mineralized district...only now book sales are involved..so hence the hostility
i would love to see facts supporting the 'lost dutchman' stories...
but none have appeared...only more words for sale.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

No Change.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

PWP,

Don't know the reason why you have decided to continue your old agenda again, but this will be my last post to you.

Go back to writing your book.

Joe Ribaudo
pippinwhitepaws
Expert
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

old agenda? this is the first post on this subject
people make things up to dirvert the topic.
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

I know the only horse you have in this race is to just keep the
conversation going. However, until ore samples are produced that match
the existing Dutchman Ore, none of us are right or wrong.

Terry
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Post by Cubfan64 »

Randy made a couple points that stick in my mind:

1) If this is indeed the real LDM, why wouldn't Waltz have been able to give better directions? As Randy pointed out, it would be fairly easy to explain how to get there - at LEAST to the general area if not the specific site. The only explanations I can think of are:

a. It's NOT the LDM
b. Waltz purposely gave wrong directions
c. Waltz was either addled or confused when giving the directions.

2) In 1882, there were numerous claims in the near vicinity of this site. I too have a difficult time believing that anyone could have a secret cache or hidden "mine" near other claims and keep it a secret. Perhaps if none of those claims were being worked at the time, but it still strikes me as improbable.

On the other hand, the one MAJOR factor suggesting this may be the LDM is:

1) Someone(s) risked a GREAT DEAL by spending time digging there. They risked jail and huge fines for something they felt was worth it. I believe it had to be more than a hunch and a small amount of silver/gold etc... that kept them working there for as long as they did (if it was indeed off and on for several years).

I doubt the vast majority of us will ever know what was actually found and dug out of there - perhaps one day there will be another deathbed confession and another box of ore brought out from under the bed to tantilize another generation of gold hunters.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Questions.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

Let's try to look at this from the viewpoint of Julia Thomas. Having never been to the Superstition Mountains, she may have been confused about the directions. If you start from the wrong place......it might be tough to find that mine.

Jim Bark assumed which house Waltz was talking about. Is it possible he was wrong in his assumption? Let me assure you that people nearing death, don't always get the words in their mind to come out right.

If the mine was covered, as Holmes claimed and considering the spot it's in, I don't have a problem with it going undiscovered. You are all being given directions by people with clear minds and recent visits to the site.

Considering the number of years since Waltz had been to the mine, his bouts of ill health and condition towards the end, add in the possibility that he had only been to the mine a few times and the experience of the people he was giving the directions to..........Do you see any problems in all of that?

We are not considering black and white in this discussion, but all the shades of grey.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Who's To Say?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

"However, until ore samples are produced that match
the existing Dutchman Ore, none of us are right or wrong."

Even if ore shows up that matches the "known" Dutchman ore, who's to say where it came from? Someone followed a vein straight down for eighty feet here. 8O

Not many people have seen this view:

Image

Are you getting some snow?

Take care,

Joe
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Post by TC ASKEY »

Good point on the ore samples but here' my point on the 80 ft. shaft.
Yeah, somebody but who?
Snow later tonight with a chance thru Friday. Rim Country remember?

Terry
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

Joe,
Please share more "inside" photos!!! LOVE IT!!!
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Bushrat
Greenhorn
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:02 pm

Post by Bushrat »

Hello Joe and Randy,

Maybe someone will post the photo of the stone face that looks up at the mine......this might excite a few people.

Regards!
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Bicknell's Cave

Post by novice »

Joe wrote;

“We are not considering black and white in this discussion, but all the shades of grey.”

The problem for me is that when we consider all shades of grey it leads us everywhere and no where!

It seems to me we could try and establish what is black and white. Since Bicknell seems to be one of the starting points can anyone drive a stake in the ground and tell me the GPS coordinates of Bicknell’s cave? Surely we know where the cave is if we can locate the mine (Ten miles east of Weavers Needle). He provides a couple of descriptions, one being in the article Joe quoted and the other being in the 1895 San Francisco Chronicle Article. The location of the cave seems to be what Bicknell is describing and not the location of Waltz’s mine? He said there was no mine there!

Randy,

The cave you spoke of; how about posting a photo? GPS Coordinates? Does this cave match the 10 mile story? Have we got the Bicknell cave? Is there a Bicknell cave?

Thanks, Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Good Points.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Garry,

You make some good points........but..... :)

In truth, almost every aspect of the LDM legend is a shade of grey. Here by contrast we, at least, have something of substance to examine.

I believe that many Dutch Hunters would agree that most of the "clues" concerning the location of the LDM are half truths or complete fabrications.

For the first time in the history of this mine, we have an exact location of a mine that fits all of the descriptions of the site itself. We can set aside the clues, maps and (some) landmarks, and focus on an actual mine.

You have misread the P.C. Bicknell article....which is not written by Bicknell, but about him. If you go back and reread it, you will see that Bicknell did not make the statements about the area being "void of a formation in which silver or gold would be likely to be found". I led you down that path, when I mistakenly attributed the article to Bicknell.

I believe Bicknell was talking about the ruins at Angel Springs, but there are many ruins and caves in the Superstitions. There is a cave very close to the Pit Mine. The cache sites are also very close to the mine, and are easy to see. I am not at liberty to disclose the locations of any unpublicized ruins.

You will notice that those who have been saying that this mine is the Silver Chief......have been silent. I believe that is because they know it is not.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

Bushrat wrote:Hello Joe and Randy,

Maybe someone will post the photo of the stone face that looks up at the mine......this might excite a few people.

Regards!

We tried to find this face, but couldn't see it anywhere. That doesn't mean that it is not there, just that we couldn't find it. I've been to the site twice, not finding it either time. It's no surprise though, that "canyon" is so thick with brush. I mean, look at the pictures, you can't see the ground through those 4-6' tall tree's all overgrown together. I remember one time walking on top of them, literally, to get down to where I was going. It's absurd.

Garry,
You mean the 2 room house in the cave I referred to? That's Angel Basin I was talking about. I believe Bicknell spoke of the same cave. Who knows though.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

The Face.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tom,

I trust all is well with you and the family. Good to see you posting again.

The picture of the face will be posted, but it might take awhile. :) Do you have one you would like to post?

Are you in Arizona now?

Take care,

Joe
Bushrat
Greenhorn
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:02 pm

Post by Bushrat »

Joe,

I am currently in Alaska suffering along with my building project. This idea of becoming a snowbird has not worked out but I can assure you that I will spend my future winters in Arizona. Despite being grumpy about the weather, I am otherwise doing OK.

I don't feel I can post the "Stone Face" photo at this time as I consider it "proprietary" to a friend and hiking partner (and mutual friend) in New Mexico. But I'm sure when it shows up in this forum it will change some hearts and minds.

The photo is compelling and was the single piece of evidence that convinced me that Randy's photos show the Lost Dutchman Mine. Also, I met with our friend in December and pinned down the true location of the Silver Chief Mine.... it is not the pit in Randy's photo. That was the last bothersome detail......

As a bit of encouragement, I believe the LDM finders have overlooked something big in that area. I hope to team up with our friend next winter after we relocate to Arizona. Maybe we could get you in the mountains one more time?

Regards and I hope this finds you warm and well in Havasu.

Tom

Tom
don
Part Timer
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Post by don »

cant anyone spot the "deliberate(?) "mistake" in all this?
Don update your email address
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Post by Cubfan64 »

don wrote:cant anyone spot the "deliberate(?) "mistake" in all this?
If there is a mistake - deliberate or not, why not point it out instead of just implying it?
Post Reply