LOST OR.....FOUND?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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IS THIS THE LDM?

YES
7
28%
NO
18
72%
 
Total votes: 25

Joe Ribaudo
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LOST OR.....FOUND?

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:18 pm

Once again, last year's Rendezvous brought forth a new book. Jack San Felice continued what is fast becoming a Rendezvous tradition. Lost El Dorado Of Jacob Waltz is full of history and true life adventure. Jack's twenty years of research and practical experience hiking the Superstitions has produced another valuable resource for all Dutch Hunters.

Saving the best for (pretty much) last, and starting on page 114, Jack concludes his book with what he believes to be the location of the LDM and Lost /Two Soldiers mine. He presents a great argument for his case, while leaving out a few important additional clues. For some, the story was not new at all. While many are aware of the mine, not everyone is as convinced as Jack, that the mine could be the Lost Dutchman.

The pit mine is located on the north side of a ridge in a highly mineralized area of the Superstitions. There are a number of silver mines in that section of the mountains and gold has been found as well. It is actually ten miles due east of Weaver's Needle, which flies in the face of a very famous clue. Not everyone knows that P.C. Bicknell practically pinpointed that location as where he would look for the LDM.

This topic is meant to debate the pros and cons of Jack's assertions. Few people have been inside the pit mine since it was cleaned out in modern times, but a number have been to the site. As Jack has written, it's no cakewalk.

Does anyone know the true history of this mine? If so, let's see your story.

Joe Ribaudo

For information on how to buy "Lost El Dorado Of Jacob Waltz", go to:

http://www.whensilverwasking.com/

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Post by Cubfan64 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:10 pm

Joe, I made the mistake of not buying Jack San Felice's book when he was at the Rendevouz last year. I didn't have the cash on me at the time - now I wish I could have picked it up.

I followed the link you posted at the bottom, but I couldn't find any direct information regarding that book - I'll do some further searching and if I can locate it, I'll give it a read. Until then, I can't really comment on what he found one way or another.

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Jack San Felice......

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:28 pm

Paul,

Anyone who wants any of Jack's books can contact him here:

azjack212@yahoo.com

I believe he will be happy to send you a signed copy.

Good luck,

Joe

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Post by djui5 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:51 pm

If I vote yes, does that mean the I believe the LDM is still lost? Your poll is confusing to me. Probably a sign of my lacking intelligence :lol:
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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Confusion Reigns.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:39 pm

Randy,

I knew when I gave more than one option, it would cause some confusion. :lol:

If you don't have any reasons for or against it being the LDM (Lost Dutchman Mine) :), there is no reason to submit an answer.

What is required, is a qualified opinion. That means you are basing your opinion on more than a hunch.

An opinion against, might include the argument that the dump consists of silver sulfides. While that may or may not be relevant, at least it is a reason.

My topic is a serious one, so perhaps you will give it a serious answer.

Thanks for your reply.

Take care,

Joe

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Post by NeedleMan » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:03 pm

8O

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Timing Is Everything.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:53 pm

As you're fighting your way tlhrough the catclaw and concentrating on keeping your footing, you happen to look up through the heavy brush and see this:

[img][img]http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj26 ... 230005.jpg[/img][/img]

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Be Very Careful......

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:06 pm

Last worked around 1999, this pit was left open, and the brush quickly moved back in close. Pushing your way through it, you found yourself suddenly teetering on the edge of a nasty fall. If you didn't catch the beam as you slid down into the pit.......it was a long way to the bottom. 8O

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Post by Cubfan64 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:44 pm

Joe - having not read Jack's book yet, I can't really give an opinion as I mentioned earlier.

That said, how would one go about proving that this is/was the LDM? I remember when Team Fever asked at the Rendevouz last year what proof would be needed... I think the general consensus was that ultimately the only real proof would be a comparison of the gold.

Outside of that, I have a feeling it would be a very difficult task to try to convince anyone that ANY hole in the ground is the LDM.

You mention something about P.C. Bicknell pinpointing that spot (the mine in Jack's book?) as THE spot where he would look for the mine. Can you expound on that?

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Bicknell's Search.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:31 pm

Paul,

This Forum is the absolute best source to be found, anywhere.....saving Greg's house, on the LDM. If you were to put "Bicknell" in the search engine, you would find this:

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: Back To Bicknell......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting back to Bicknell, here is part of an interesting article written in the Mesa Free Press, Nov. 9, 1894:

"A Curious Find".

"P.C. Bicknell is back from an extended trip into the Superstition mountains, where he went to look up "the Old Doc Thorn mine," on a clue he had himself found. The clue consisted in a cliff dwelling of the true ancient era, perched high up on the side of a canyon in the Superstitions, about ten miles east of Weaver Needle. The dwelling was seemingly as it had been abandoned by its occupants of several thousand years ago, being in a notable state of preservation.
But, outside of its antiquarian interests, in one of the rooms were found articles that would deeply excite the curiosity of any prospector. One was a prospector's pick, the other a short and small spade, evidently used in smelting, though its handle was missing. The main peculiarity of the odd looking tool, however, lay in the fact that upon its blade were patches of silver stuck to its rusty face, much as solder splashes attach to tin. Now, there is no silver in that region, so far as mdern miners have been able to find. The nearest white metal is over at the silver King, fully thirty miles away. The spade evidently was used for the purpose of skiming off the dross from the cast metal in a silver smelting furnace of many years ago and had but recently been used for this purpose when abandoned in the cave.
Nothing was found that would indicate who the ancient refiner was, and in a close search of the surrounding country not a trace of mineral could be found in a radius of at least three miles. In the midst of a highly mineralized region, this neighborhood appears to be absolutely void of a formation in which silver or gold would be likely to be found.
Yet it is in this neighborhood, so Bicknell declares, that the Thorne mine was found three decades ago.........."

This information, along with many other documents, was sent to me by Steve Creager.

Seems like an interesting story to me.

First of all, the "ten miles east of Weaver Needle" put Bicknell smack dab in the middle of around 25 claims. I believe they are all silver, but could be wrong. Those claims are on a map from 1882.
My thanks to Jack San Felice.

What's also interesting, is the fact that the Doc Thorn Mine has been tied to the LDM by some folks. Everything in this legend just keeps coming full circle.

This story really conjures-up a good many more interesting facts, but I will leave the rest for someone else to write about.

Anyway.....just something else to chew on.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

------------------------------------------------------------------------

While the ruins Bicknell was writing about are, pretty much, northwest of this mine, a string of old silver mines leads back to the pit.

There will be no ore publicly claimed to have come from this mine. In private, I believe that may be a different matter. I would not be surprised to see Dutchman ore turning up to be tested against the results from Dr. Glover's book.

We will be left with examining the preponderance of the evidence. Will that be enough.......probably not for most Dutch Hunters, but considered with an open mind, the weight of evidence will be compelling.

There are a number of old members here who are familiar with this mine and the details of the story. They have reasons for believing it is not the LDM. I believe they will studiously avoid the topic, because they fear the truth.

Their silence will be part of the evidence I mentioned.

Take care,

Joe

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The Carpenter's Choice.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:08 pm

What did Waltz's carpenter know? Why did he choose this area to search:

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Post by djui5 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:30 pm

OK...How do you know that is where Waltz's carpenter searched? Also,
how do you know that was Waltz's carpenter? Also, how do we know what
Waltz told him? Are you sure he was looking for the LDM, or just
looking? That is a HEAVILY mineralized zone through there. Never seen
so many quartz outcroppings in my life in one area.

Couple more things, that is a Silver bearing zone, heavy in Silver
content. Now we all know Silver is found with Gold sometimes, but when
you think about the mine Waltz described, I'm inclined to think it was
in a Gold bearing region, not Silver. Another thing, how do you know
how much Gold was taken out of the mine you posted pictures of? From
what I know, only a handful of people saw the ore itself, and they're
not talking :) How did the ore compare to Waltz's ore?

I know you already know, but I personally don't feel that is the
location of the LDM. I'm still the new guy though, so maybe you all
know something I don't. I've seen the view of the "gun sight", but
personally am not convinced.

It's funny though, when your standing at the entrance of that mine you
really feel like it is the LDM, yet when you leave, you believe it's
not.

I can agree that it sure fits a lot of the "2 pits and a tunnel"
remarks the old Indians made. But is that Waltz's mine they described?
I personally don't think so. There are a lot of mines in those
mountains 8O
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari

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First Questiion.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:24 pm

Randy,

Once again, most answers can be found by using the search tab at the top of the page. Enter "carpenter", and check "posts". I would suggest you read the two pages of posts that are in the topic. That will give you a better feel for the little that is known on this specific topic.

Some very knowledgeable Dutch Hunters posted in that short topic, including Peter. They have done a great deal of "leg work" for many people......including me.

You may still feel it's an iffy story, but it's been around for a long time.

I will answer, as best I can, your other questions tonight.

Take care,

Joe

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Post by TC ASKEY » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:40 pm

Randy,
Have to agree with you. I don't think it's the right place either.
In my opinion, right or wrong , everything leads to one area and it is
a long way from Pinto Creek.

Terry

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Price Of Silver.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:40 pm

Randy,

Had a few spare minutes here.

"Couple more things, that is a Silver bearing zone, heavy in Silver
content. Now we all know Silver is found with Gold sometimes, but when
you think about the mine Waltz described, I'm inclined to think it was
in a Gold bearing region, not Silver. Another thing, how do you know
how much Gold was taken out of the mine you posted pictures of? From
what I know, only a handful of people saw the ore itself, and they're
not talking How did the ore compare to Waltz's ore?"

I know there were a number of men working that mine from around 1997 to 1999. They worked only in the summer months. You can look at the trash they left and get a pretty good idea of how many men worked for those three summers.

The entire area was under Camo-Netting. It was not a two-man operation. Some of the men who worked that mine bragged about finding the LDM. That means they must have found gold. No one worked that pit for the silver content.

"I'm inclined to think it was in a Gold bearing region, not Silver"

I'm inclined to think it is in a region where no one would expect to find a gold mine. 8O Have you found a lot of gold bearin regions in the Suprstition Mountains? Have you been to OZ yet????

As this conversation continues, I hope the arguments for and against it being the LDM will be presented.......much like what we are doing now. I don't know that it's the LDM, but I strongly suspect (like Jack) that it is.

Joe

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Can't Disagree.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:05 pm

Terry,

"Randy,
Have to agree with you. I don't think it's the right place either.
In my opinion, right or wrong , everything leads to one area and it is
a long way from Pinto Creek
."

Can't really disagree with you. Could that be the reason it's never been found????

Not many of the clues are carved in stone.....so to speak. :) Once you accept the idea that it's possible, a lot of things start to fall in place.

Which clues do you believe negate this pit being the LDM?

Nice hearing from you.

Take care,

Joe

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Post by novice » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:35 pm

I just ordered the Jack San Felice Book, Lost El Dorado of Jacob Waltz, from the Superstition Mountain Museum. Pretty painless. but there is a $5.00 shipping and handling fee. Of course you can pick it up there and avoid the fee.

Call 480-983-488 and they will set you up in a couple of minutes.

I haven’t gotten past Bicknell. He locates the cave as 10 miles east of Weaver’s Needle and speculates silver was being refined nearby and then we are told that this area is thick with silver mine claims from 1882.

Then Bicknell goes on to say;
in a close search of the surrounding country not a trace of mineral could be found in a radius of at least three miles. In the midst of a highly mineralized region, this neighborhood appears to be absolutely void of a formation in which silver or gold would be likely to be found.
Since the area was full of silver mining claims and the shovel he found would have likely been used in refining ore from one of these claims, what am I to make of his claim that the area is absolutely void of a formation in which silver of gold would be found? Bicknell would certainly be aware of at least some of these old mines.

Am I misreading something? It wouldn’t be the first time.

Garry

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Post by Cubfan64 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:29 pm

I saw that too, and I'm confused as well. Here is a compilation of where my confusion lies...
The clue consisted in a cliff dwelling of the true ancient era, perched high up on the side of a canyon in the Superstitions, about ten miles east of Weaver Needle.
Now, there is no silver in that region, so far as modern miners have been able to find. The nearest white metal is over at the silver King, fully thirty miles away
in a close search of the surrounding country not a trace of mineral could be found in a radius of at least three miles
In the midst of a highly mineralized region, this neighborhood appears to be absolutely void of a formation in which silver or gold would be likely to be found
If I am reading those things correctly, the cave where the spade was found is 10 miles east of Weaver's Needle and according to Bicknell the nearest silver found by miners is 30 miles away at the Silver King. This doesn't seem to jive at all with the 25 silver mine claims you show on a map from 1882 Joe - what am I missing here?

Then he seems to go on to imply that the location of the spade is at least 3 miles from any mineral content (well, he already said there is no silver closer than 30 miles away, so is he implying gold, copper, iron, etc...?).

The only statement that keeps running through my mind is "no miner will find my mine." Is Bicknell implying that he believes Doc Thorne's mine was somewhere near the site of the found spade - and that the reason it hadn't been found again is because nobody would normally be looking for mineral in a mineral "void" there?

If so - I'm still confused by the proliferation of silver claims you say are shown on a map.

Help me fill in the blanks...

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blanks

Post by pippinwhitepaws » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:08 pm

10 miles due east of weaver's needle is approx. junction of rogers canyon and reevis creek...about 11 miles from silver king if one walks the old reevis trail through rogers trough past the witlow's ranch to silver king.
this site has no bones or tools to suggest it was an old prospect.
reality check is in order.

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Post by djui5 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:15 pm

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Randy,

Once again, most answers can be found by using the search tab at the top of the page. Enter "carpenter", and check "posts". I would suggest you read the two pages of posts that are in the topic. That will give you a better feel for the little that is known on this specific topic.
Take care,

Joe

Joe,
I was kinda reluctant to talk about this whole thing online like this, especially since it's a "secret" and all, but here it goes:

Seems the source for this whole thing is Mitchell, and it's a story that is changed from his first (probably for the worse). I have read this before and recalled it when I read it on here. Seems like a really fishy story to me. I "assume" your topo map of Iron Mountain is from his book? Without further proof I'm writing it off as a fairy tale.

Another problem I have with this area is, as noted above, the area was being mined the last time Waltz was in the mountains. How would there be all these claims, yet Waltz thought no-one was around? If this mine was Waltz's, he would have run into some of these people at least once right? I mean, there were claims everwhere in the canyon that this one drops into!

Bicknell's "no minerals for 3 miles" talk is all BS. For one, this mine is 2.2 miles as the crow flies from Angel Basin. 2nd, anyone who knows the slightest thing about minerals would go ballistic in an area like this if they spent more than 5 mins in it. Sure, the vegation is hell, literally (Yes, I've been there), but damn is there Quartz EVERYWHERE. Mountain sides of white Quartz chunks. You'd have to be an idiot to think there was no minerals in the area. Also, Iron mountain...hello, Iron, that's what Black Sand is made of. Black Sand is a prospectors best friend, but you knew that right? Iron is almost always known to be associated with Gold and Silver. Besides, would they lay mining claims all over the place for no reason? No, that only happens in the Western Supes...haha.

Waltz said "no miner will ever find my mine". Seems funny his mine would be located in a place where so many mining claims, legit productive mining claims were laid. Look up the Silver Chief :) It's not far away is it? To be honest I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if someone else found a super rich deposit in this area. What I do not believe is that "Dutchies" mine is in this area.

I have no doubt that the spade found in the cave was used to work this area. By area I mean the few canyons close to the one this mine is located in. It's not that big of an area really. Also, heading East and North East one might find even more minerals...

Then we have the gun sight. Looks a little similar, but the needle is backwards. But then what if the original was flipped, and the one we have publicly is backwards, then it fit's right? NO, now the area on either side of Weavers Needle is wrong. So, it doesn't fit. It's on the wrong side of the Needle, or the sketch as we know it was manipulated, one of the 2.

Also we have to bring up the tin type, since it is one of the main clues to this mine right? The story goes that in a cave up above the mine there was found a bible, a bunch of gold ore, and a tin type. The tin type has a picture of a man with Jacob Waltz punched into the right edge. Looks like it was punched in with a nail as the name is made of up a bunch of tiny dents. You've seen it though, so you know what it looks like. Well this tin type came from a man who a notorious liar. He took money from investors for things he knew were worthless. Furthermore, there is a picture of the "cave" with all the gold and the Bible. I believe the tin type is in there too. Now, any man who's ever seen real gold ore/nuggets would laugh hysterically at this picture. It's so obvious that the gold "nuggets" are rocks spray painted. They don't even look the slightest bit real. Of course the picture is fuzzy and out of focus. Of course. Now, also there is another picture. A picture of the area where this cave is. Well I'll tell ya I've checked all around where this mine is and that picture of the cave wasn't taken anywhere near this mine. It's supposed to be on the summit just above the mine, but I'll tell ya it's not above this mine, not the mine you're refering too. There is no rock buildup like in the cave picture anywhere near this mine. So, I'm writing all those clues off too as being manufactured by a person in need of some money and attention.

I'm just not buying this as the LDM, too many things work against it for me. You talk about all the tools and work, but that can be discounted too. Sure, there are lots of tools in the area but let me propose another scenario for you. Someone does a lot of research and discovers a site that is supposed to hold a great mine. They actually find the mine and the location fits old legends about great riches in the area. Maybe a couple reports even describe it as being the LDM. So you get REALLY f'n excited right!! I mean, maybe you've really found it! You discover that the mine is filled in some at the top. Upon further exploration, you discover the tunnel wasn't dug all the way to intersect with the mine. Then, after clearing out the entrance to the mine to go down with ropes and find it filled with water. Well, this has to be a VERY rich mine right? So you, naturally, spend the money and get the manpower to pump out the water. You'll have to do this entirely under wraps though because the site is in the Wilderness region. Getting caught means prison time for sure. So you bring in tools, a generator and pvc pipes, camo to cover your project, and watchmen to keep an eye out for the forrest service (hell, maybe they gotta piece of the pie too, just maybe). Upon cleaning out the bottom of the mine you do find some gold mixed in with some high grade Silver ore. Maybe it's not really super high grade Gold though, maybe it's 1/4oz a ton, maybe 1/2oz. Good stuff, but not Dutchman good. Your ego gets the best of you, and you decide to clean out the mine. At todays prices you could turn a bit of a profit, especially "hand" working the mine. So you clean it out, maybe make a few hunderd thousand or so. Then, since your ego is broken, you write a book telling the world you found the LDM. You got the book sales to look forward to also, and your elevated fame of course. That's great for the ego stroke.

Just a thought I had....I mean, really, who knows?

My big question here is what is in the upper pit? Was that ever dug out?

On a more positive note, there is a peak in this area that I think could be the "S Sima" from the profile map. Gotta go look some more though, maybe it's not :)

As for the mine, the only "clues" I found to fit it as being anything close to the LDM is the "really rough country" clue. I'll tell ya, getting across the ridge and down to that mine requires going through some of the most hellish vegation I've ever seen in my life. If that's what Waltz meant by "rough", I'll agree this place is VERY rough. That's about it though. No one ever said the 2 pits and a tunnel were certaintly Waltz's mine except the Indians. How sure are we they were not 1) lying, and 2) knew for a fact who Waltz was?

Like I said, I'm the new guy so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

My biggest problem with the area is in this picture. As you can see, it's a straight shot from the "board house" to this mine. One only has to head East from the Board House, past Coffee Flat, up Frasier Canyon to the summit that will be right in front of you. Climb that "hill" and on top you'll find a lot of quartz. Down the other side is the mine, another pit, and a tunnel. If you follow the canyon the mine is in until it ends, then go West following the canyon it dumps into for a couple of miles you will find a "2 room house in a cave". Simple right? Now, if this was Waltz's mine why didn't he describe it like that? I can write it out without using names. Rhiney and Julia could have easily found it. Here:

"I will take you to the Board House on the South side of the mountain. From there you will go East, past the big mountain on the left. Then, go straight through the small saddle at the big mountain on the left, and down into a long canyon. Follow that canyon until you get to a big open area, with another small mountain in front of you. Climb that mountain. On the way up, look back and you will see the needle in the gun sight. Once on top of the mountain you will find Quartz lying everywhere. This is where you go down the other side into a small canyon. There lies a pit mine, my mine, and a tunnel down below."

See, that's just too easy for me. Waltz's mine has to be somewhere that is hard to describe to get to. Somewhere that you can't really just say "Go straight here and there and it's right if front of you". Even when Waltz knew he couldn't make it out he still could have told them these directions, and they still could have found the place. It's as easy as "Go East from the Board House". He didn't say that though, did he?

Image

Also, here is a picture of the mine opening as it was last year, kinda hard to get the whole thing because of it's location:

Image

Here are the 2 "pits" and the tunnel:

Image

Here is the gun sight, so people can form their own opinions about it:

Image

Here is the "dog ear":

Image

Here is the view, you can see the main mountain in the very background, and Coffee Flat not too far away. It's amazing what you can see from this area:

Image
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari

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Bones?

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:35 pm

PWP,

"10 miles due east of weaver's needle is approx. junction of rogers canyon and reevis creek...about 11 miles from silver king if one walks the old reevis trail through rogers trough past the witlow's ranch to silver king.
this site has no bones or tools to suggest it was an old prospect.
reality check is in order."

Were you there when the site was discovered by the people who worked it? Did you notice if it had been covered, as Holmes described it? Did you get some pictures before it was opened?

Here's a "reality check" for you. A fair number of men worked that pit, three years running. They risked a great deal in that effort......for an empty hole in the ground?

The exact distance (within a few hundred feet) due east from Weaver's Needle to the mine, is 10.10 miles. The finders did not stumble onto this location. They found it by design.

I have not said that it IS the LDM. Jack San Felice did not say it IS the LDM. There are people who have been viewing this topic who have reasons for believing it isn't. You have given us your best reasons for believing it is not.......no bones or old tools. You have not mentioned how you know this. What kind of bones would you expect to find at the site?

Joe Ribaudo


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Post by pippinwhitepaws » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:22 pm

best reasons? no...just the most glaring...humans are filthy creatures...they leave a mess where ever they go. trivial, mundane, telling. midden. one can date any site by the garbage. reality check. broken tools, hammer handles? chisels? condensed milk can, soldered bottom?
just a clean pit and no midden? worked three years and not a chip of flint or an old sardine can? oh yes..the shovel...glazed in silver...an the silver king just a morning walks away.
sounds like someone invented a hole to go with a theory.

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OH!

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:01 am

"just a clean pit and no midden? worked three years and not a chip of flint or an old sardine can?"

Sorry Pip, I didn't realize what you were after. Is this the kind of trash you were talking about?


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There was quite a bit left inside the mine as well. Eventually I will show those photo's, if anyone is interested.

Joe Ribaudo

zentull
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Post by zentull » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:28 am

Nice to see the fire in Randy's belly.

Two comments I have for now:

1) Everyone I have spoken to after the fact said two very distinct things that " You are sure it's the LDM until you leave and you really doubt it is by the time you get back to the car" and " It's so easy to give directions to and find". The fact these comments come from several different people at different times is pretty odd.

Is it easy to find? No one seems to be having much trouble going up there taking pictures and as rough as it is in some ways, it's not detered many folk who are interested.

2) Herman mentioned several Silver mines in that exact area and was always sending folks out looking for these old mines he knew existed. He was very clear about separating the LDM from this......very clear in those areas being in two very different locations. There was a story of a similar mine he and Rhiney found and worked, but I believe it was further north and west. It may be one and the same though, don't remember why they abandoned it? It was a tunnel and at least one filled pit they found.
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Post by Cubfan64 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:43 am

Those trash photos are almost enough to make me sick to my stomach.

And we wonder why Forest Service people can be such p*%ks at times.

I have to agree with Pippin - people are PIGS and can't be trusted to do the right thing unless there's a "warden" looking over their shoulders.

As far as it being the LDM, Randy makes an awful lot of sense in his post.

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