LDM Documents on the Internet

[don]

novice,
nice work .....im impressed, there are a few reports there ive bnever seen before.
take care

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

There were twelve men on the trip. Don't know how many were Don's
(I assume two), but the man with the map was Fred Guirey. It was a "Don's" event. Most of the participants were strangers.....as far as I could tell.

While Erwin Ruth was not mentioned in the article, the picture of the map shows that it, was "one of three maps received by E.C. Ruth in Mexico from SR. Gonzales".

Two of the differences in the map (from Magill's) are: The words, "Sierra Mas Alta En Medio De" above "Perfil Mapa" and, the symbol and leters below the arrow and "15000".

I posted a picture of the map from the article in Member Archive in the "Old Maps" album.

It seems obvious that the map in the article was the one received from Erwin Ruth. It is very close to the map that is shown on the facing page of page 118 in "The Killer Mountains" by, Curt Gentry.

The trip is characterized as a "mock search" in the article.

So, who made the minor changes in the map....Glenn Magill, Erwin Ruth or Fred Guiery?

Dr. Glover used the map that came from the Don's Club, on page 331 of his book. Thomas pretty well covers all of this under the heading of: "The Ruth Maps", begining on page 329.

Like I said, nothing earth shaking, but interesting.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

I sometimes wonder what Steve Creager thinks when he sees me stumbling around. I’m sure he rolls his eyes but I suspect there is also a small smile. I hope that Gregory Davis and Dr. Glover have similar reactions.

I actually had the answer to a least a portion of the question I posed. I just didn’t read far enough in the Guirey interview. (Joe, thanks for the additional info)

This was a great interview and I think it provides a lot of food for thought. In this vein, I have posted an excerpt [Fred Guirey Interview (1976)] on the LDM Documents page. Hopefully some who have not seen the document will gain some additional insights on the Ruth story, maps and other related topics.

Dr. Glover covers the Ruth case in his book in great depth. He offers almost every possible scenario that I have ever heard regarding what “may” have happened. Dr. Glover obviously had access to all of the documents that we have posted but we quickly realize he had access to many other documents and stories from which to draw his story. We are all traveling well worn ground. In the end, we must all travel our own journey and reach our own conclusions. He provides us some shortcuts to consider.

I have also posted a letter by James McCarthy which was in response to the Brownie Holmes story of the LDM which is included in the newspaper articles. I found it interesting and while a bit off the subject of Ruth it was all part of the Ruth disappearance.

Enjoy, Garry

[novice]

I want to thank Don and all of the others for the kind words regarding the posted documents.

I know that many are “way” ahead of me on getting around on computers. Even so, I want to offer a couple of suggestions that may help someone.

Regarding the link address, I would ask that you not copy it to other web sites. It is temporary and if I ever get around to reorganizing the site the link will no longer work and it will just be a dead link with my home page address included. By all means share it with anyone you would like.

Anyone wishing to print any of the documents is free to do so, but as I find typos, etc. I will be updating the pdf files. I’m sure they will never be perfect but perhaps in a month or so they will have been cleaned up some for better printing.

I believe everyone has a search function on their Adobe Reader software. This can be a useful tool if you are looking for something. You can enter “map” and go through the newspaper articles and find every newspaper reference to Adolph’s Spanish maps or you can search for something as simple as the references to Howland, Holmes etc. You have to search each pdf file individually and there is no site search function.

Also the copy and paste function should work on all of the articles except the Bicknell article. (At least that one didn’t work for me). This was a pdf file that was shared by Steve Creager and I’m not sure why it doesn’t work. If you haven’t noticed, the paste function is my favorite tool.

Garry

[TC ASKEY]

Garry,

Thanks for creating the link to share the information you have.
Many of us have never read the articles before.

Terry

[Vinnie O]

Hi,

I've been interested in the Lost Dutchman since I saw a movie on TV while nigh unto 50 year ago now...

Recently I purchased a used copy of "Thunder Gods Gold" (2nd Printing, 1946).

I read a LOT of history books, and Barry Storm is not the best writer. But the most intriguing Mystery for me is that Storm claims that he KNEW who Ruth's killer was, but couldn't prove it.

from p. 150 -

".... So back at my typewriter I tried to expose him in my pamphlet. [Trail of the Lost Dutchman] But my publisher had the too pointed remarks deleted..."

end note 88, refering to "Mr. X" -

"I could make an excellent guess but dare not in public print. I suspect that others could too!"

Might you have ever heard anything to suggest a name for Storm's guess at Mr. X?

Vince O'Mahony

[zentull]

I believe it was posted here that it was a veiled reference to Brownie Holmes. Storm and Holmes did not get along or had some trouble between them it was said.

[Vinnie O]

Thanks for the quick reply.

My search on "Ruth" came back with 561 hits. And sifting through that was going to take forever.

Vince

[zentull]

"During an interview I did with Brownie Holmes years ago, He stated that Storm was pointing the finger at him for it was well known that he, (Brownie), had small feet. Brownie said that there was no, "love loss between the two", for Storm was mad at him because he would not tell him all he knew about the Dutchman's Mine and what Waltz told his father. Brownie felt that Storm had an Ax to grind and what better way to do it than put in print the suggestion he was involved with the Ruth incident. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis"



There you go. Can't get better than Brownie directly relating the tale to Greg.

[Vinnie O]

Ah, this begins to sound like it was just slander, or a wild guess.

Storm seems to have rubbed a LOT of people the wrong way. This cuts into his objectivity.

A few months back, I read perhaps half a dozen books on Amelia Earhart, including the very recent "Amelia Earhart's Shoes". For a while it appeared that they had an EXACT match: same style of oxford, a woman's shoe on an uninhabited island to which no white woman had ever come, a heel produced only after 1925 and before WW2... Then somebody VERY carefully measured the length of Amelia's foot in a photo taken during her last flight. The shoe on the island was too big. The writers admitted that that meant it wasn't Amelia's, and moved on to other evidence.

Storm seems to have had a problem with giving up on an idea once he accepted it.

Vince

[zentull]

Storm not only had a problem with giving up on ideas, he liked to create evidence that supported those ideas.

Then again, he actually spent time off the trails and looking, which is more than others did.

The notes of authenticity are a great resource. The books are suspect, but there is always some truth underlying Storms tales.

Funny thing is all these guys tried to get on Tex's good side. It sometimes is close to hero worship they way they patronize him.

[don]

zentull,
i asked the questio a few years back here .."who was the guy with small feet ,storm accused of being mr x?" the only answer i believe i received was "who knows?". I always assumed it was barkley ,storm was refferring to, but as i said it was only an assumption.so was it indeed general knowledge that holmes was the small footed one?
regards

[novice]

I just added some new articles to the web page. I apologize for the haphazard way they are being added and the difficulty in knowing which are new and which you may have already read. It is a work in progress.

This is probably the last articles I will add regarding the Ruth disappearance.

Gregory has a lot more articles in his collection but they are from newspapers from all over and most are getting their information second hand. Hopefully you are not missing much as far as the accounts from newspapers are concerned.

I still plan to do some cleanup work on the articles. Format, typos, etc.

Most of the new articles are in the Newspapers, Miscellaneous, Summer 1931. I also added a couple of articles to the Phoenix Gazette and the Arizona Republic for January 1932. There was also some rearranging of files.

Garry

[novice]

I believe I’m finished with the rearranging, updating and editing of the Ruth associated PDF files. They are a long way from perfect. I realize there are still errors, missing text that I didn’t get when I copied the microfilm but you eventually reach a point of diminishing return and you have to say, that’s it.

I do not take responsibility for all of the remaining glitches as the newspapers themselves have their own errors and in most cases I chose to leave them. The photos would be a great addition to the files but the quality of the photos from microfilm was poor.

For anyone wishing to add the articles to their own LDM collections, you should be able to copy the PDF files to your hard drive or a CD. Of course if you have a lot of ink you can print them also. Either way, it will provide you with a more permanent record than some link to Garry’s home page.

Garry

[novice]

I’m still playing with the LDM documents web page. I have added some letters from Glen Magill to the McGees. I tried it as one file but it kept hanging up so I have broken it into 4 smaller files. I’m not sure what the problem is? The letters have nothing to do with the Adolph Ruth story and mainly they are talking about the stone maps.

I’m still in the learning mode so please excuse the format. I will probably never get out of this mode! The letters are in chronological order with a small introduction in Magill Letters -1.

The web site address for accessing them is still in the first post of this thread. The Magill links are presently near the bottom of the page.

While I’m trying to learn, I thought some of you might enjoy reading the letters.

Let me know if you have any problems? I "might" be able to do something?

Garry

[zentull]

Garry,

Great work and I think we all appreciate what you have done. As quiet as things are, don't let it deter you from believing no ones paying attention.

The Magill letters give each of us a little insight into the man behind the story.........

[buscar]

novice

Thank you for the newspaper articles regarding Ruth and the Magill letters.

buscar

There's gold in them thar stories and that's where most of it is

[Roger]

Garry,

Thanks for putting the Glenn Magill letters up on the web for others to be able to read. It is interesting when one can see these older and more inaccessible documents and then see some common threads with other more modern Dutch Hunters jump out of the pages. Here's an example that struck me in Magill's letters:

In your Glenn Magill Letters - 1, Glenn writes to Jack & Bernice McGee on Oct 27, 1965. He writes on the bottom of page 1 of that letter:

"After leaving the Mountains, we rented a plane and flew the original Peralta trail into Mexico. In Mexico, we talked with one of the last living survivors of the Peralta Clan. Her name - Maria Peralta. At Arizpe, Sonora, Mexico, we visited the townsfolk and searched their Church records. It was here at Arizpe that the Original Peraltas were engaged in mining."

Now fast forward 23 years to Thomas Glover's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz - Part 1: The Golden Dream (1998). On page 56, Tom begins covering his discussions with Leslie Peralta and her Mother, Linda Peralta. Linda talks of the Peralta family living on a large hacienda in the Oposura River Valley near Campas, Sonora. They were engaged in agriculture plus mining . Tom does not highlight a "Maria Peralta" in Linda Peralta's family tree, but some of the male Peralta's had several wives. It would be very interesting to see if there was a Maria Peralta alive in 1965 that was related to Linda Peralta. It would seem plausible that there would be a connection.

Thanks again for posting Glenn's letters - keep the info coming!!!

Roger

[novice]

Roger,

I'm sure it doesn't make much difference. but the date on the letter is almost surely in error. I believe it was a typo. It should be 1967. In fact, further on in the letter we find the date 1967. The McGees and Magill did not get in contact with each other until August of 1966.

I am glad some are making use of the information for further research.

Good Luck!

Garry

[Roger]

Garry,

Think you are correct in the date error in Magill's letter dated Oct 27, 1965.

Here's another tread in your Magill info that is even more interesting:

In his letter to Mr. & Mrs. Clarence Mitchell (aka Travis Marlowe) dated Feb 12, 1970, Glenn writes:

"However, I also believe from my information that there are six maps (Glenn is referencing the Stone Maps here - my addition). I presume you have found four, including the Heart plug? If so, two more are still lying out there near the hill of the maps, which incidentally (correct me if I'm wrong) is located just off Queen Creek to the North, and is situated between the old and new highways - just due North of the Queen Creek Bridge."

Glenn was trying to get Clarence to share with him the exact location of where the Stone Maps were found in the belief that the remaining two maps were in that immediate vicinity.

Garry, you mention in your header page to the Magill letters that a Mrs. Bilbrey of Frederick, OK, was in touch with both Magill and McGee and trying to get the them to contact each other which may have started the letters between the two parties.

Now fast forward again. I got an audio tape from Greg Davis's collection of an interview done in June, 1978, of Mike Bilbrey. Is he related to the Mrs. Bilbrey in Garry's intro?????? On the tape Mike says he began hunting the LDM in the Superstitions in May, 1973, and was using the Stone Maps for his search. He ended up on Tortilla Mtn. and searched it initially on the South side. He claims to have found the famous two "Stone Crosses" with the maps on them in a shaft below an "X" marker on a rock face on the SE side of Tortilla. Mike's searching eventually went to the North side of Tortilla and he reports finding many interesting things there which evidenced mining in the area.

Makes one wonder if Magill had some unique information about the Stone Maps being connected to the Stone Crosses and he wasn't looking in the right area for the remaining two maps. Also note that Jim Hatt in his booklet, The Peralta Stone Maps, includes the Stone Crosses and makes the association that Magill references.

Food for thought.

Roger

[novice]

Roger,

I doubt whether this is much help in addressing the Bilbrey connection, but it might provide a possible lead. In the notes of a telephone call between Glenn and Bernice on August 23, 1966, Glenn apparently referred to her as Mrs. G. Bilbrey.

In addition there was also a clipping from the Southwesterner Newspaper, June 26, 1966 (El Paso) with the headline New “Lost Dutchman” Mystery. Bernice made an entry on the newspaper border, “Material sent by Mrs. Y. F. Bilbrey, Frederick, Oklahoma.” I have no idea how old the lady was.

I know I’m in error here but for some reason I had a nagging feeling that there was a Bilbrey associated with a story about some Spanish artifacts that were found (supposedly fake) around Tucson and they are displayed once in a while? With this paltry description can someone tell me what I’m thinking about. I know the primary individual involved had another name and I’m sure it has been talked about on the forum but I don’t remember enough to do a descent search.

Thanks, Garry

[bill beck]

Is anyone else getting this for Magill Letters 1, "The file is damaged and
could not be repaired."
The good news 2,3,and 4 worked. Thanks Novice! I realy appreciate
getting to read the letters.
I read "Killer Mountains" a couple of weeks ago and it makes it seem more personal.


Sincerely yours,

BillB

[novice]

Bill,

I’m not sure why you’re having a problem accessing Magill Letters -1. I checked it as best “I knew how” and everything worked. The files are all identical types and they all look the same in the code. I will get around to adding some additional pieces of this correspondence in the future and hopefully that portion you cannot open will be accessible to you.

I also have returned and reread many portions of “The Killer Mountains”. I do think I understand Magill a bit better and one of the things that changed from my initial contact with Killer Mountains is his “Treasure Hunter” mentality. From the book I gathered he just got sucked in by the LDM and after his successful or unsuccessful, depending on what you believe, hunt for the LDM, he returned to his detective business.

In reality, I believe he was the consummate “Treasure Hunter”. He seems to have moved almost seamlessly from Waltz’s mine to the Stone Maps and also at this time, he was involved with Gene Reynolds and the Pegleg Mine in Anza Borrego. I guess you could make the argument that the common denominator in all of these searches was Adolph Ruth, but I believe he was bitten.

Also, my opinion is that he had much more than a touch of con man in his soul. His words must be considered carefully when trying to apply them to the various situations. As with many treasure enthusiasts, his words are sprinkled with some fact and some prevarication. “It’s a Family Tradition!”

Garry

P. S. Of course Magill also cracked the Stone Maps. He died in 1993 in Oklahoma City.

[bill beck]

Novice,

Glad it wasn't your site and thanks for checking the link. My phone line
went dead on the link and I guess the Adobe software on the computer
did not like that.

I will be at my sister's Christmas Day and will take the oppertunity to
print out the file as a present to myself from you.

You are right, the letters really do show a side of Magill that isn't in the
book.


Wishing well to you and yours,

BillB

[djui5]

Novice,
Just read the Magill letters. How fascinating! That was a great pleasure to read, and brought up so many questions of course. If he solved the stone maps, then he must have found the other 2 maps he was looking for right? What did they lead to? What did Maria Peralta tell him? Where is the map of the military trails? What is on it? Why would Travis need a $15,000 investment from him if he found all 18 mines? Did Travis really find the mines or was he blowing smoke?

These stone crosses

Thanks so much for hosting these files. Can't wait to dig into the Ruth files.