Waltz Gold

[Joe Ribaudo]

Setting aside the ore shipments to anywhere from Jacob Waltz (no evidence), what are we left with?

I can tell you this: In 1849 pure gold sold to the mint for $20.67 a troy ounce. The price for gold dust and nuggets sold at the, fixed, price of $16 a troy ounce. What that means, is that the amount or ore needed to reach that $250,000 has been increased dramatically.

First, there would be no way to keep those kind of shipments a secret.....especially in those days of the "Arizona Gold Rush". Too many people had to be involved to move that kind of ore. Second, no mint purchased "gold ore". It had to be refined elsewhere down into pure gold to be sold to the mints. That process would have been done in Arizona.

Try to picture Waltz, or for that matter anyone, moving enough ore to extract $250,000 worth of refined gold to sell to a mint. That would have entailed wearing out a bit of boot leather, not to mention muleflesh just to get the ore to the refiner. Remember this "ore" had to be packed out of the Superstitions to the nearest mill, and then rendered down into pure gold......prior to shipment to any mint.

Other than stories and one very questionable "Accountable Warrant" we are left with the two sworn affidavits from Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn that they have seen an assay report with Dick Holmes name on it from the Goldman's store in Phoenix. That assay report, the ore, the jewelry and the lighter is all owned by one person. He received the "evidence" from Brownie Holmes who said it came from his dad. Neither affidavit states how much Holmes was paid for the ore.

That "owner" has provided statements, to different people, that are provably false. At what point do we assume we are getting truthful information from him. Why should we trust the "artifacts"? The assay report that was viewed showed no mine or any connection to Jacob Waltz and the LDM.

There is no doubt in my mind that Waltz did have some gold ore squirreled away on his property and under his deathbed. These questions remain: How much ore did he have and where did it come from? 50# of raw gold, nuggets or dust...., no quartz, would have been worth $9600 at Goldman's store.

My guess is that he had much less gold in his lifetime than what has been alleged.

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

Joe,

That "owner" has provided statements, to different people, that are provably false.

Who is the "owner" and what statements are provably false?

Don't leave us hanging unless your kidding and just launching trial balloons.

I agree, those affadavits are one of the strongest elements in the story.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

There are a number of people who know the identity of "the owner". I am not one of them.

I won't quote the two affidavits entirely, but you can find the following on pages 274 & 275 in Dr. Glover's book:

[Then recently in Corbin's The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold I found affidavits stating the individual who owns the assay report and jewelry made from the ore, sent it to:

"...the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see is the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source. Strong stuff. The trouble is, it never happened.

The individual reffered to (who wishes to and has the right to remain anonymous) did not send his ore to the University of Arizona, nor does he know of the survival of the original assay report. Moreover, the University of Arizona has not had a School of Mines for over 70 years. (They do, however, have a College of Engineering and Mines.) Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is Ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist.

One is left with tests that never took place, at a non-existent School of Mines uning for comparison a non-existent collection of gold ores........]

I believe you can take your pick of the many statements of alleged
"facts" from the preceeding quotes.

If I am "kidding", I try to put in a few..... :)s.

Everything has been offered up for pictures and analyses...except the assay report. While Tom Kollenborn, Bob Corbin and I assume Clay Worst all saw this document, the owner says he knows nothing about it's survival. The one thing that could actually be authenticated.....has "left the building", so to speak.

Seemed like a good topic to kick around.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

About the $250,000 worth of gold...

That much gold back then would work out to "around" 1,300lbs. IF, IF IF IF someone sent that much gold over time, it would ONLY require 87 trips at 15lbs a trip. IF Waltz sent bits and pieces over, say 15 years, he could have pulled it off without causing a stir, especially if he used different places each time, say a couple times in Florence, few in Phoenix, couple in Mesa each year. Not much of a fuss would be made, plus he COULD have bought out the assayers/refiners to keep quiet. I'm sure it was done back then, as it's being done today.


Just my "SPECULATION" on that aspect of the legend.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

Nice "IF"(s).

Trouble is, that $250,000 figure is based on "documents" that don't exist.
Not only don't they exist, they never could have, at least not in the Wells Fargo Archives.

That's not speculation.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

I am more than a little lost in this conversation. the warrant was for 50 pounds of ore valued at 7000 dollars I believe. Could be 4000 dollars as well, the writing is a bit unclear to me. I have no idea what is meant by Gold ore either. This could vary by the quality of the ore and how it was broken down?


The assay report that is disputed was 110,000 dollars per ton

Not sure about the 250,000 dollar number you guys are talking about....

Rhiney Petrasch gave us a estimate on the weight of the tins with ore. He also handled ore from the tins and broke it down. The overall combined weight could vary between 40-80 pounds including the tins with lead seal.

Another story mentions that Waltz, Julia and Rhiney washed this ore out, bagged it and placed it in the candlebox under the bed.

Even the person who we know carried and stored the ore only gave us a ballpark idea of the weight of that ore.

Another story is that the ore was in 2 bags in the candlebox of equal size and weight.

I believe the story concerning cleaning the gold came from Julia, Rhiney never mentions anything more than putting it beneath Waltz's bed and covering it.

We also forget that during his time with Julia there were medical bills and other costs that I am sure he paid for. The fact that he had Rhiney sell that piece of ore shows he was without coin and was then living off the tin ore. All else was probably lost in the flood. I doubt he dug up the hearth once a week for pocket money. That was likely the reserves he had and all else was washed away.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"IF Waltz sent bits and pieces over, say 15 years...."

I know you are not a stickler for historical accuracy, but we have been told that these shipments occurred from 1881-1889.

While ore sold in Arizona would be one thing, we are told that Waltz shipped directly to a mint. That would have required pure gold ready to be made into coins.

If Wells Fargo was involved in shipping anything from Waltz, out of Arizona, it would not have been ore. Despite any number of people swearing they have seen the Wells Fargo documents with the Waltz/Walts name on them........In my informed opinion, it's a complete fabrication.

I can understand why you, or anyone else for that matter, might want to take the word of others over mine, and they may turn out to be right. At this point in time, I have the only "qualified" information on this matter.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Like I said Joe, it was just speculation. I don't know anyone who knows for sure how many times Waltz visited the mine, or how many times he shipped ore, or where that ore went, or what he did with his gold, etc etc etc.

Do you have facts regarding this information that is verifiable? If so I know a lot of people would like the air cleared up about a lot of things. I know I do, like I said, it's the truth I seek....

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

While there could be no factual evidence that the Waltz/Walz Wells Fargo documents don't exist, I believe I have talked to the best sources available for this information.

I understand why you would take your source over any that I might provide, as he stated that he actually saw the document(s) at the Wells Fargo Historical Archives in San Francisco. There is little doubt in my mind, that he is mistaken.

One of my sources was the Wells Fargo Historian from the company museum in Phoenix. The other is Dr. Robert J. Chandler, senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank and president of the book Club of California.

Dr. Chandler is the author of Images of America: Wells Fargo. He called me from his office in the Wells Fargo Museum in San Francisco, and we talked about this topic for around half an hour.

Most of the statements I made concerning this subject, I had made long before ever talking to Dr. Chandler. At this point I will use Dr. Chandler and Connie, the historian from Phoenix as my "factual" sources.

No doubt you have good reasons for speculating on a fictional story, but I prefer to go with the best historical evidence available. Dr. Chandler was very generous with his time and I assume anyone could have the same conversation that I had with him.

On the other hand, instead of making the man sorry he ever gave me the time of day, you might want to consider why I would make up the unequivocal statements I have made here and elsewhere.

Like you, I would love for this story to be true. Unlike you, I took the time and effort to go to the best source available. What they said is easily verifiable. That has usually been my habit over the last 49 years.

As you know, I take unusual care when making what I consider to be historical statements. If I am mistaken, I apologize and correct that mistake. Not everyone feels the same way.

For your own peace of mind, I would suggest you consider looking further into the story. That will not be a difficult task.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

Well Joe I didn't intend to drag "oro" into this (no pun intended). I was referring to documents about anything talked about in this thread, shipments, assays, sales, etc.

Since you brought up oro (who isn't the originator of the $250,000 figure, as I'm sure you know), I do believe he saw what he saw. LIKE YOU, I also checked with the local Wells Fargo and came up blank. They do have a neat museum downtown and I'm very glad I visited. If I could only get some coins like their collection

Someday I intend to make a trip to San Fran. Until then, I will take oro's word for what I know it to be, honest. Just because you made a couple of phone calls and came up blank doesn't mean the document doesn't exist. It could mean it's in a place one might not think to look, and certain people might not know exists.

The only document I've ever seen regarding Waltz shipping ore, assaying ore, or anything of the like, is the one in Helen's book.

If I remember correctly, didn't a bunch of old Wells Fargo documents get destroyed in a flood or fire?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"Just because you made a couple of phone calls and came up blank doesn't mean the document doesn't exist. It could mean it's in a place one might not think to look, and certain people might not know exists."

I have done a little more than make a few phone calls on this subject.

Coming up blank might imply that I did not get any results. I believe the emphatic denial that any such records ever existed is a bit more than a blank. Does coming up blank mean that I did not find the answer you would have liked? I would have liked the same answer.

I doubt many of the people who are posting here are visiting the forum where Oro made those remarks, so I felt fairly safe in not using his name. Perhaps I did drag him over here. I would guess that you are the only one who knew.

You and Oro both took my doubt as a personal attack on him. It was no such thing, but rather a questioning of the facts he was presenting. I mentioned at the time that I believed he was mistaken about what he had seen. All evidence points to that being the case.

On the other hand, it's also possible that your quote at the top of this post is correct. Let me know what you find in San Francisco.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

No one took anything as a personal attack Joe

I'll let you know what I come up with. He saw something and I want to know what he saw. That document could be immensely important to the history of the LDM, as you know.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"No one took anything as a personal attack Joe".

Sorry Randy, my mistake. Looking back, I see you said nothing at all.

Joe Ribaudo

[novice]

Let’s see, what I have learned from this thread?

1. Joe knows the name of the “Arizona businessman” but he’s not sharing it. He said he didn’t know him but then added his funny face to indicate he was kidding.

2. Joe introduced Clay Worst into the story as having seen the “Arizona businessman's Jewelry and documents. Again he’s not sharing where this information came from.

3. Somehow the $250,000 shipment of gold to San Francisco is now part of the “Arizona businessman” story? The documents now include a Goldman’s assay report, shipping papers to a San Francisco Jeweler requesting the fabrication of Jewelry from the gold and shipping papers back to Phoenix. (All of these papers are dated 1891 and 1892). The $250,000 gold shipment document has now been piggy backed and we have another existing document with no date. Dutch Hunters of reputable reputation have verified all of this.

4. Further we have learned that “all” Dutch Hunter’s are liars. As Hank Jr. put it, “It’s a Family Tradition”. We also learned that the word mistaken and liar means basically the same thing.

5. No Dutch Hunter should be allowed to go San Francisco alone to do research. They might, very well, end up owning the Golden Gate Bridge.

How am I doing?

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Good morning Garry,

1. I have no clue who the businessman is. I guess my was inaproppriate.

2. I said "I assume Clay Worst....saw this document". Not sure that an assumption requires a source. Despite the wording in the affidavits, I am not sure that the businessman ever had possession of that assay report.

You may assume that my assumptions are without foundation. That may, or may not, be factual.

3. Waltz Gold is the topic here, so I am not sure that anything has been "piggy backed" into the thread.

"Dutch Hunters of reputable reputation have verified all of this."

One Dutch Hunter of reputable reputation has verified this particular document. Others, just as reputable, have researched the Wells Fargo Archives and state that no such document exists.....in their files. The senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank states that no such records exist, or ever existed for Waltz......or anyone else from Arizona in that period.

4. Don't know what ties there are between "mistaken and liar" back there, but out here they mean two different things.

"Further we have learned that “all” Dutch Hunter’s are liars."

Not sure where that was part of this thread, but perhaps that's just your perception of what was said. Personally, I don't believe that.

5. This statement is very true, and applies to everyone who goes to San Francisco, not just Dutch Hunters.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

The senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank states that no such records exist, or ever existed for Waltz......or anyone else from Arizona in that period.

Take care,

Joe

So they were burned right? We know Wells Fargo has a very extensive history in AZ around that time, with stages running everywhere, so why isn't there any records and what happened to them all?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

The facts are, that Wells Fargo never had any such records for Arizona. What they did have, was totals for states west of the Rockies. That should have been what you received from your contact with Connie. If not, I will be happy to send you a copy.

There were very good reasons for that lack of records from our state. Wells Fargo didn't have any stage lines in Arizona. Everything was contracted out to other companies. Each Express Company kept their own records, and those were eaten by the time bug.

Gold ore was not sold to the mints. It was sold locally, refined and then sold to various mints. There were no shipments to the east (Philadelphia) until around 1887. I am not home, so I could be off on that date.

Waltz, by necessity, would have sold his ore locally and that would have been the end of his involvement. His name and those numbers would not have ended up in a Wells Fargo Archive. It's a fabrication, probably by Charles Fredrick Higham or another early writer.....Take your pick.

I hope that answers your questions. If you would like sources, I will provide them when I get home. I can also recommend some excellent books on Wells Fargo, and in particular, their history and involvement in Arizona.

I am a big fan of history, so I do make every effort to know what I am talking about. I have no doubts that others will disagree with that self-assessment.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

There were very good reasons for that lack of records from our state. Wells Fargo didn't have any stage lines in Arizona. Everything was contracted out to other companies.

Joe Ribaudo

This is true Joe, though I think Wells Fargo's involvement in Arizona is a lot more than you think, or are implying here.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"This is true Joe, though I think Wells Fargo's involvement in Arizona is a lot more than you think, or are implying here."

I don't see how you have any idea about the depth or shallowness of my knowledge of the history of Wells Fargo in Arizona, but perhaps I deserve those comments.

While I don't profess to have your level of knowledge on Arizona history or Wells Fargo for that matter, I can assure you I did not have to do a quick google search to be able to post on the subject.

What source did you use to determine that what I had said was "true"? Many of the Wells Fargo bankers in Arizona would swear that the company ran their own stagecoaches here in the 1800s.

If I make historical statements, you can bet I will have at least one reliable source for my facts....sometimes more. My library is small, but very good.

Nothing I said could be construed to demean the level of involvement of Wells Fargo in Arizona. Excepting, perhaps Matthew and yourself, I probably know as much or more about the company than any average Dutch Hunter.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Speaking of history, since this is my topic, I will change the direction for a short trip.

Some time ago, a number of us were discussing the crossings of the Salt River. Along that line, does anyone know why Hayden's Ferry was created?

Joe

[djui5]

What source did you use to determine that what I had said was "true"?
Joe Ribaudo

I don't recall exactly, but I did some stage coach research a while back and found out that Wells Fargo didn't run their own coaches/trains, they hired locals/smaller companies.

I also found out more neat info when I visited the museum downtown...
It's right next to a bakery/confectionery and I wondered if that was the location of Julia's bakery. Probably not though.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"So they were burned right? We know Wells Fargo has a very extensive history in AZ around that time, with stages running everywhere, so why isn't there any records and what happened to them all?"

So, basically, you knew the answer to your own question.....right?

Actually, Wells Fargo refused to accept money, notes or drafts that were destined for Florence, Globe, Pinal and Prescott in 1885.

Joe

[djui5]

No, I'd heard, but don't know exactly where they went and was looking for answers.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"No, I'd heard, but don't know exactly where they went and was looking for answers."

You have some excellent historical resources amongst your frineds. If you can't find the information you are looking for from them, you can feel free to ask me. I may not have the answer, but if it deals with the history of Wells Fargo in Arizona, I know some pretty minute details.

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Ore, in this case, would be as it came out of the mine. Waltz would have sold it to a local buyer, and purchased the "Accountable Warrant" with the proceeds. The document has Jacob Waltz as the person the $7000 is payable to. As it was supposed to be for his sister.....it seems a little strange.

I would assume that the person to ask about the "Warrant" would be Matthew Roberts. Perhaps he could be persuaded to give a little talk on that subject at the Rendezvous.

The assay report can't really be "disputed" because it has never been available for testing as to authenticity. Seems more than suspicious for such an innocuous document with such important historical content.

The $254,000 figure has been passed around for many years.....as authenticated by Wells Fargo historical documents. It's a complete fabrication, according to Wells Fargo company historians.

In those days, medical bills were not as heavy a burden as they are today. Few drugs or treatments to pay for. Most folks self medicated and never saw a doctor. The rest of that statement seem more than reasonable.

Take care,

Joe