I have never paid a lot of attention to the markings on the stone maps but I decided to try and build a timeline of when each detail on the maps became public. I ran into problems almost immediately. I need help!
I was using the photos in the member archives (Joes and Brads) to determine the final configuration. Also Joe’s Life Magazine article and I do have Mitchell’s book Superstition Treasures.
I’ll start with the markings under the word Crozon on the witch map? Is there an 8-n-p in this area. If not where does that come from? Am I correct in assuming there is the outline of a heart under Crozon. I guess I can’t see any of these marks on the archive photos. Am I looking in the right place. I did try downloading and blowing them up to no avail.
Thanks, Garry
Stone Map Markings Public Disclosure Timeline
Garry
Garry,
go to 'Member Archives' and click on page 3.
At the bottom of page 3 you should find a file titled: Peralta Stone Map Castings.
Inside are six photos. All six are super-sized.
Click on the photo you wish to view. When that photo pops up, click it again.
This should provide you with an image too large for your screen.
The outline of a heart is clearly visible below the word COAZON.
Now look directly below the 'B' in 'BUSCA' Here you should be able to see what appears to me the letters NFP. Could they be the initials of the map-maker? Perhaps, but I doubt it.
Now look closely to the left. You may be able to see what appears to be an '8'
Enjoy,
Laz
go to 'Member Archives' and click on page 3.
At the bottom of page 3 you should find a file titled: Peralta Stone Map Castings.
Inside are six photos. All six are super-sized.
Click on the photo you wish to view. When that photo pops up, click it again.
This should provide you with an image too large for your screen.
The outline of a heart is clearly visible below the word COAZON.
Now look directly below the 'B' in 'BUSCA' Here you should be able to see what appears to me the letters NFP. Could they be the initials of the map-maker? Perhaps, but I doubt it.
Now look closely to the left. You may be able to see what appears to be an '8'
Enjoy,
Laz
8-N-???
Thanks to Brad and Joe,
Joe sent a plethora of pictures of the stones taken at the museum and I was able to see the markings of which Brad was speaking.
I was on the wrong track as I thought the 8-N-P was a separate marking from the 8-N-infinity symbol. They are all the same one.
As a matter of fact,
1. Brad interprets it as possibly 8-NFP
2. Clarence Mitchell identifies it as 8-N-P
3. The Kenworthy Sketches in the member Archives show it as 8-N-Cross on a Stone?
4. I have also seen it as 8-N-Infinity Symbol
It seems it is not clear? Whatever it is doesn’t particularly bother me as it has nothing to do with what I was working on.
Brad, am I correct in assuming that the photos in the member archives are high resolution photos of cast replicas?
Joe, I don’t know much about photography but why is the color of the stones different in the different photos? (Different Filters Used?) Also what year did you photograph the stones and where were they? Which photos most closely approximate the actual color of the stones?
In “Superstitions Treasures”, has Mitchell touched up the photos by coloring the lettering and outlines so they would photograph better? The 8 seems much clearer and more obvious?
Garry
Joe sent a plethora of pictures of the stones taken at the museum and I was able to see the markings of which Brad was speaking.
I was on the wrong track as I thought the 8-N-P was a separate marking from the 8-N-infinity symbol. They are all the same one.
As a matter of fact,
1. Brad interprets it as possibly 8-NFP
2. Clarence Mitchell identifies it as 8-N-P
3. The Kenworthy Sketches in the member Archives show it as 8-N-Cross on a Stone?
4. I have also seen it as 8-N-Infinity Symbol
It seems it is not clear? Whatever it is doesn’t particularly bother me as it has nothing to do with what I was working on.
Brad, am I correct in assuming that the photos in the member archives are high resolution photos of cast replicas?
Joe, I don’t know much about photography but why is the color of the stones different in the different photos? (Different Filters Used?) Also what year did you photograph the stones and where were they? Which photos most closely approximate the actual color of the stones?
In “Superstitions Treasures”, has Mitchell touched up the photos by coloring the lettering and outlines so they would photograph better? The 8 seems much clearer and more obvious?
Garry
Novice
Garry asked:
"Which photos most closely approximate the actual color of the stones?".
Garry,
excellent question!
I have closely examined the originals, and I can assure you Joe'e photos more closely resemble the current color of actual stones.
My castings are darker, as the makers were attempting to match the color the stones might have been before resting in the creek for a number of years.
Laz
(Brad)
"Which photos most closely approximate the actual color of the stones?".
Garry,
excellent question!
I have closely examined the originals, and I can assure you Joe'e photos more closely resemble the current color of actual stones.
My castings are darker, as the makers were attempting to match the color the stones might have been before resting in the creek for a number of years.
Laz
(Brad)
Destination
Garry,
I know this sounds cryptic, but you shouldn't think of that map leading to a specific 'location'. Instead, think of it as leading to a 'destination'. The difference is subtle, but important.
This map sets up a premise. (Think travel brochure.) You will still need a map to find your way.
Laz
(Brad)
I know this sounds cryptic, but you shouldn't think of that map leading to a specific 'location'. Instead, think of it as leading to a 'destination'. The difference is subtle, but important.
This map sets up a premise. (Think travel brochure.) You will still need a map to find your way.
Laz
(Brad)
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Infinity???
Garry and Brad,
I have blown up those maps by 400%. You are talking about 8-N-P, which is exactly what is scratched into the stone. As far as I know, an "infinity symbol" is always shown as a lazy eight, which is an eight laying on its side.
It was written that the two trail maps and the heart were found using the code as, "8 north paces". If you assume that is a lie, where do you go in the story to find the truth?
I find the truth laid out in the terrain, exactly as it is drawn on the two trail maps, including the heart laid into its nesting place. You can't place those two maps.......together, anywhere else.
Anyone who wants to see how that works, can find the maps on treasurenet.com If it's less than obvious, you probably need to find another hobby.
I can already hear the mumbling and grumbling. It's all talk, so don't even bother. The maps speak fthemselves, always have.
I will post the pictures that are taken in natural light. The pictures I have were taken by Steve Decker, Editor of the "Arizona Mineral And Mining Museum Foundation News". He used professional equipment and lighting
as well as using different colored lights or filters, and from various positions. They were taken in 2003.
Brad told me he has pictures which are equal to those I have, or better, so perhaps he might send those to Garry. I believe he took them himself.....at least that's how I remember the conversation.
If you have a copy of "Arizona Highways", January 2005, I believe the pictures are pretty close to exact in color. Been a long time since I have seen the stones, so it's probably not a good idea for me to be the final word on that.
I have no problem in admitting that there are many people out there, with higher IQs than I have who have done more research and are probably miles ahead of me on this little puzzle. If any of them have a better layout of the two trail maps, it will be great to see them.......if and when they go public.
Brad,
I was beginning to think you had left the country.
Take care,
Joe
I have blown up those maps by 400%. You are talking about 8-N-P, which is exactly what is scratched into the stone. As far as I know, an "infinity symbol" is always shown as a lazy eight, which is an eight laying on its side.
It was written that the two trail maps and the heart were found using the code as, "8 north paces". If you assume that is a lie, where do you go in the story to find the truth?
I find the truth laid out in the terrain, exactly as it is drawn on the two trail maps, including the heart laid into its nesting place. You can't place those two maps.......together, anywhere else.
Anyone who wants to see how that works, can find the maps on treasurenet.com If it's less than obvious, you probably need to find another hobby.
I can already hear the mumbling and grumbling. It's all talk, so don't even bother. The maps speak fthemselves, always have. I will post the pictures that are taken in natural light. The pictures I have were taken by Steve Decker, Editor of the "Arizona Mineral And Mining Museum Foundation News". He used professional equipment and lighting
as well as using different colored lights or filters, and from various positions. They were taken in 2003.
Brad told me he has pictures which are equal to those I have, or better, so perhaps he might send those to Garry. I believe he took them himself.....at least that's how I remember the conversation.
If you have a copy of "Arizona Highways", January 2005, I believe the pictures are pretty close to exact in color. Been a long time since I have seen the stones, so it's probably not a good idea for me to be the final word on that.
I have no problem in admitting that there are many people out there, with higher IQs
than I have who have done more research and are probably miles ahead of me on this little puzzle. If any of them have a better layout of the two trail maps, it will be great to see them.......if and when they go public.Brad,
I was beginning to think you had left the country.
Take care,
Joe
Lazy Eight
I'm going to reverse myself, and go with Joe on this.
It's not a lazy 8, so it probably isn't infinity...
Honestly, I have never tried to figure out what it means, as I have not needed it to understand the maps. It doesn't contain specific instructions.
It's more of a generalization, as in:
Visit Bradworld now, home of the worlds largest ball of ear wax. Just off of exit '8' in Bradville.
The hat that looks like an 'A' with two horizontal bars is similar to a 'greater than' symbol. As a hat, it means nothing. It is not a witch's hat.
It means essentially to start by focusing your attention on the human figure, which depicts: Saint Michael, or in Spanish... 'San Miguel'
The body of the figure represents the bell-tower of a Spanish mission.
The sleeve represents the mission bell. (Notice the cross on his sleeve appears to be swinging.) His arm represents the bell's clapper. Notice the angle.
The cross in his hands represents Christ leading the way...
The 'mine signs' represent the various order and aspect of what awaits.
Laz
(Brad)
It's not a lazy 8, so it probably isn't infinity...
Honestly, I have never tried to figure out what it means, as I have not needed it to understand the maps. It doesn't contain specific instructions.
It's more of a generalization, as in:
Visit Bradworld now, home of the worlds largest ball of ear wax. Just off of exit '8' in Bradville.
The hat that looks like an 'A' with two horizontal bars is similar to a 'greater than' symbol. As a hat, it means nothing. It is not a witch's hat.
It means essentially to start by focusing your attention on the human figure, which depicts: Saint Michael, or in Spanish... 'San Miguel'
The body of the figure represents the bell-tower of a Spanish mission.
The sleeve represents the mission bell. (Notice the cross on his sleeve appears to be swinging.) His arm represents the bell's clapper. Notice the angle.
The cross in his hands represents Christ leading the way...
The 'mine signs' represent the various order and aspect of what awaits.
Laz
(Brad)
More Photos
I've added a few photos to the members archive, page 1. The file is titled:
Every Picture Tells A Story.
There are eleven photos total.
Some may surprise you...
Laz
(Brad)
Every Picture Tells A Story.
There are eleven photos total.
Some may surprise you...
Laz
(Brad)
Thanks for all the photos!
The existence of and information shown on the stone maps was being bandied about in the LDM community for quite some time before Clarence Mitchell told his story in Life Magazine. The public first became aware of their existence when the story was published, June 12, 1964. A few photos were published, the witch and the associated symbols, the horse map with tape applied blocking out some information and the lower trail map with tape also blocking out some symbols.
MOEL Corporation received $2,000 from Life for the story but shortly afterward the SEC became involved with MOEL and the end result was that Clarence Mitchell, who had been the keeper of the stones, was shoved out and MOEL took over as caretaker of the stones.
It’s not clear how long Clarence had been working on the book “Superstition Treasures” but it was published early in 1965. It provided him a source of income and MOEL was not involved. In it, Clarence published photos of the maps and the public gained access to much of the information on the maps.
Below is a list of the information that was still not shown in the Mitchell photos. (Spring 1965)
1. [Witch Map] “Heart Symbol” below the word Crozon
2. [Horse Map] The letter or numeral “5” and four pin holes in the upper left had corner.
3. [Horse Map] Text “AL NORTE DEL RIO”
4. [Lower Trail Map] Some Symbols in the apparent formula “2=3” – O – “18” =7
5. [Upper Trail Map] The letter “R” in the upper right hand corner
6. [Upper Trail Map] “Triangle” with a “Large Hole enclosed with a Tear Drop Tail on the Hole”
7. [Upper Trail Map] The Number “10”, “Concentric Circles” and a “Triangle” in Heart Cavity
8. [Heart Insert Map] The trail side is never shown.
Mitchell contacted the McGees who had written an article on the Superstition Mountains. I believe Clarence was initially looking for publicity to help sell his book. He provided a photo of the horse map without tape but when the McGees submitted their planned article, Invitation to a Ghost Walk" to Mitchell for approval, he nixed the additional information (North of the River) saying the present owners of the maps might think they were giving too much away. The McGee’s article was published in 1966 but there was no additional information provided.
Enter Barry Storm. Barry’s involvement and his access to the maps is in question but it seems to me that someone was at least feeding him information. The Mitchell’s correspondence reflect that they were aware of rumors that he was going to publish something. They weren’t particularly flattering toward Barry.
In the 1967 Summer Issue of “The Treasure Hunter”, Barry added detail that had not appeared in public before. In fact everything previously hidden on the Horse/Priest Map was now visible. The lower Trail Map was also shown completely, including the information in the Heart Cavity.
At this point, for those who were following the story, the maps were slowly being revealed. Some may have been skeptical of Storm’s information but it seems right on.
Below is a list of the information that was still not shown. (Summer of 1967)
1. [Upper Trail Map] The letter “R” in the upper right hand corner.
2. [Upper Trail Map] A Triangle with a Larger Hole with a Tear Drop Tail to the Hole.
3. [Heart Insert Map] Nothing was shown. People may not have even realized there was something written there.
I can find no additional disclosures. The Flagg Foundation apparently received the maps in the summer of 1969 and the first public display was by the Dons in early 1970. This initial showing included tape over some portions of the maps. Sometime, about 1971, the board members of the Foundation made a policy decision to allow viewing and photographing of the stones if you were a member. This seems to be how the last bits of information on the maps trickled out.
If anyone has any additional sources with revisions or clarifications on the timeline, I would appreciate their sharing.
Garry
MOEL Corporation received $2,000 from Life for the story but shortly afterward the SEC became involved with MOEL and the end result was that Clarence Mitchell, who had been the keeper of the stones, was shoved out and MOEL took over as caretaker of the stones.
It’s not clear how long Clarence had been working on the book “Superstition Treasures” but it was published early in 1965. It provided him a source of income and MOEL was not involved. In it, Clarence published photos of the maps and the public gained access to much of the information on the maps.
Below is a list of the information that was still not shown in the Mitchell photos. (Spring 1965)
1. [Witch Map] “Heart Symbol” below the word Crozon
2. [Horse Map] The letter or numeral “5” and four pin holes in the upper left had corner.
3. [Horse Map] Text “AL NORTE DEL RIO”
4. [Lower Trail Map] Some Symbols in the apparent formula “2=3” – O – “18” =7
5. [Upper Trail Map] The letter “R” in the upper right hand corner
6. [Upper Trail Map] “Triangle” with a “Large Hole enclosed with a Tear Drop Tail on the Hole”
7. [Upper Trail Map] The Number “10”, “Concentric Circles” and a “Triangle” in Heart Cavity
8. [Heart Insert Map] The trail side is never shown.
Mitchell contacted the McGees who had written an article on the Superstition Mountains. I believe Clarence was initially looking for publicity to help sell his book. He provided a photo of the horse map without tape but when the McGees submitted their planned article, Invitation to a Ghost Walk" to Mitchell for approval, he nixed the additional information (North of the River) saying the present owners of the maps might think they were giving too much away. The McGee’s article was published in 1966 but there was no additional information provided.
Enter Barry Storm. Barry’s involvement and his access to the maps is in question but it seems to me that someone was at least feeding him information. The Mitchell’s correspondence reflect that they were aware of rumors that he was going to publish something. They weren’t particularly flattering toward Barry.
In the 1967 Summer Issue of “The Treasure Hunter”, Barry added detail that had not appeared in public before. In fact everything previously hidden on the Horse/Priest Map was now visible. The lower Trail Map was also shown completely, including the information in the Heart Cavity.
At this point, for those who were following the story, the maps were slowly being revealed. Some may have been skeptical of Storm’s information but it seems right on.
Below is a list of the information that was still not shown. (Summer of 1967)
1. [Upper Trail Map] The letter “R” in the upper right hand corner.
2. [Upper Trail Map] A Triangle with a Larger Hole with a Tear Drop Tail to the Hole.
3. [Heart Insert Map] Nothing was shown. People may not have even realized there was something written there.
I can find no additional disclosures. The Flagg Foundation apparently received the maps in the summer of 1969 and the first public display was by the Dons in early 1970. This initial showing included tape over some portions of the maps. Sometime, about 1971, the board members of the Foundation made a policy decision to allow viewing and photographing of the stones if you were a member. This seems to be how the last bits of information on the maps trickled out.
If anyone has any additional sources with revisions or clarifications on the timeline, I would appreciate their sharing.
Garry
The Stone Maps - Published Photo's
Here are seven other more recent publications of the Stone Maps:
1. "The Lost Dutchman Mine and How The Documentatry Movie of This Story was Made" by Robert E. Lee (approx. 1975), 80 pages. Color photo's of the main faces of the maps and with the Heart stone in place and removed. No tape on photo's.
2. " Lost Dutchman Mine Discoveries and A History of Arizona Mining" by Jay Fraser (1988), 120 pages. Has color photo's of most sides of the stone maps with the heart in place and removed. His conclusions are in the wrong place for the LDM, but it was the first place I got to see decent photo's of the Stone Maps.3
2. "Quest for the Dutchman's Gold" by Robert Sikorsky (1994), 157 pages. Black and white photo's of all stone faces with white tape over a number of areas.
4. "Hidden Treasures of Arizona" by Dutch Savage (1995), 41 pages. Hand drawn maps of the two trail stones and the Horse stone.
5. "The Peralta Stone Maps To The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine?" by Jim D. Hatt (2005), 20 pages. Smaller color photo's of most faces of the Stone Maps.
6. "Treasure Trails of the Superstitions" by Jack San Felice (2006), 121 pages. Black and white photo's of all faces of the stones except the backside of the Heart stone.
7. "Treasure Maps of the Superstitions" by Amy Michelle Mosir (2006), 163 pages. Color photo's of all the map faces.
There are probably more - got tired of looking.
Roger
1. "The Lost Dutchman Mine and How The Documentatry Movie of This Story was Made" by Robert E. Lee (approx. 1975), 80 pages. Color photo's of the main faces of the maps and with the Heart stone in place and removed. No tape on photo's.
2. " Lost Dutchman Mine Discoveries and A History of Arizona Mining" by Jay Fraser (1988), 120 pages. Has color photo's of most sides of the stone maps with the heart in place and removed. His conclusions are in the wrong place for the LDM, but it was the first place I got to see decent photo's of the Stone Maps.3
2. "Quest for the Dutchman's Gold" by Robert Sikorsky (1994), 157 pages. Black and white photo's of all stone faces with white tape over a number of areas.
4. "Hidden Treasures of Arizona" by Dutch Savage (1995), 41 pages. Hand drawn maps of the two trail stones and the Horse stone.
5. "The Peralta Stone Maps To The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine?" by Jim D. Hatt (2005), 20 pages. Smaller color photo's of most faces of the Stone Maps.
6. "Treasure Trails of the Superstitions" by Jack San Felice (2006), 121 pages. Black and white photo's of all faces of the stones except the backside of the Heart stone.
7. "Treasure Maps of the Superstitions" by Amy Michelle Mosir (2006), 163 pages. Color photo's of all the map faces.
There are probably more - got tired of looking.
Roger
Timeline
Thanks Roger,
The stone map information published by Barry Storm did not include photographs but sketches.
In the 1973 McGee’s story, “Are the Peralta Stone Maps a Hoax?”, they included the photo of the horse map that they had received in 1965 along with sketches of all the remaining maps. (All eight faces were complete). In the article they stated that they believed this was the first time the trail side of the Heart insert had been published. They still had not seen the actual maps but had gathered the information from several sources. The information on the stone maps was now complete and nothing remained hidden from the general public. There was and continues to be some disagreements over the actual markings (S or 5), (P or Infinity) etc.
Published photographs of the maps with nothing hidden apparently followed after 1973. It seems reasonable to assume several people had taken personal photographs after the Flagg Foundation created their policy allowing viewing and photographs but photographs were not published until later.
Roger offers the Robert E. Lee publication “The Lost Dutchman Mine and How the Documentary Movie of This Story was Made” as a candidate for the first published photos. They were in color and complete. Roger gives the date of this publication as approximately 1975.
I want to offer a second candidate although the Robert Lee publication appears to be first.
In the June 1976 Issue of Treasure Magazine, an article “Peralta Rock Maps Deciphered!”, was written by Thomas Probert. This article also featured photographs of the maps. The interesting thing about this article was the credit. PHOTOS COURTESY OF LT. GREG DAVIS.
It would be interesting to know the year that Greg actually took the photographs. He must have been among the first. I would love to hear the details of the when, how, where, etc. of that session. Perhaps Greg can share some details of that experience?
Garry
The stone map information published by Barry Storm did not include photographs but sketches.
In the 1973 McGee’s story, “Are the Peralta Stone Maps a Hoax?”, they included the photo of the horse map that they had received in 1965 along with sketches of all the remaining maps. (All eight faces were complete). In the article they stated that they believed this was the first time the trail side of the Heart insert had been published. They still had not seen the actual maps but had gathered the information from several sources. The information on the stone maps was now complete and nothing remained hidden from the general public. There was and continues to be some disagreements over the actual markings (S or 5), (P or Infinity) etc.
Published photographs of the maps with nothing hidden apparently followed after 1973. It seems reasonable to assume several people had taken personal photographs after the Flagg Foundation created their policy allowing viewing and photographs but photographs were not published until later.
Roger offers the Robert E. Lee publication “The Lost Dutchman Mine and How the Documentary Movie of This Story was Made” as a candidate for the first published photos. They were in color and complete. Roger gives the date of this publication as approximately 1975.
I want to offer a second candidate although the Robert Lee publication appears to be first.
In the June 1976 Issue of Treasure Magazine, an article “Peralta Rock Maps Deciphered!”, was written by Thomas Probert. This article also featured photographs of the maps. The interesting thing about this article was the credit. PHOTOS COURTESY OF LT. GREG DAVIS.
It would be interesting to know the year that Greg actually took the photographs. He must have been among the first. I would love to hear the details of the when, how, where, etc. of that session. Perhaps Greg can share some details of that experience?
Garry
Chuck Kenworthy Photo's of Stone Maps
I had posted in the Member Archive some time ago copies of photographs that Chuck Kenworthy had made of the Stone Maps. The photo's look like drawings but are actually Infra Red photographs that have been "dodged and bleached" to bring out the faintest of details in them. I have a handwritten letter from Chuck dated 7-3-92 that accompanied the photo's. It was on his company letterhead paper - The Quest Exploration Corporation. Chuck had had these photo's for some time and must have made them PRIOR to the Flagg Foundation taken posession of the stones. Suspect he photographed them while the Mesa Museum had them. I personally viewed the stones at the Mesa Museum in 1992 and I would have to believe they were authentic based on the natural wear on the Don and Cross sides. The work done to produce the trail sides was very good - the surfaces were very smooth and the carvings very precise. Whoever did this was undoubtedly trained in this type map making. My personal take is that these are real Spanish stone maps made prior to the Mexican era using the Spanish map making codes. I also believe that they don't lead to the Lost Dutchman or a cache, but to a gold mine in the Superstitions that was worked earlier and over an extended time by serveral generations of Peralta's.
These photo's by Kenworthy are the best source available in my opionin for determining EXACTLY what the various markings are on the Stone Maps. The symbols under the cross of the Padre are very clear. Be sure to discount the hand writting done by Kenworthy and myself as noted under the photo's. These are the only copies I have.
Roger
These photo's by Kenworthy are the best source available in my opionin for determining EXACTLY what the various markings are on the Stone Maps. The symbols under the cross of the Padre are very clear. Be sure to discount the hand writting done by Kenworthy and myself as noted under the photo's. These are the only copies I have.
Roger
Kenworthy
Roger,
I believe the Flagg Foundation or possibly the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, as others have suggested, took over the maps in the summer of 1969 and they were displayed by the Dons in early 1970 on loan from the Flagg Foundation. Are you suggesting that Kenworthy took his photos previous to these dates (1970)? You wrote; “PRIOR to the Flagg Foundation taken posession of the stones”. How early on did Kenworthy become involved with the stone maps?
You could be messing up my timeline!
One of the things I found interesting from your posted photos from Kenworthy was his interpretation of the markings after the 8-N- ???? Thomas Probert also had the same interpretation in his 1976 article. Others seem to have a very different take?
Garry
I believe the Flagg Foundation or possibly the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, as others have suggested, took over the maps in the summer of 1969 and they were displayed by the Dons in early 1970 on loan from the Flagg Foundation. Are you suggesting that Kenworthy took his photos previous to these dates (1970)? You wrote; “PRIOR to the Flagg Foundation taken posession of the stones”. How early on did Kenworthy become involved with the stone maps?
You could be messing up my timeline!
One of the things I found interesting from your posted photos from Kenworthy was his interpretation of the markings after the 8-N- ???? Thomas Probert also had the same interpretation in his 1976 article. Others seem to have a very different take?
Garry
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Kenworthy Drawings
Roger,
I understand that you believe that Kenworthy sent you actual photos of the Stone Maps, but there is no doubt in my mind that they are drawings. It's not so much that they look like drawings, which they do, but there are some very noticeable differences between his drawings and the actual pictures.
Print out the two trail pictures I have posted in Member Archive and compare them to Kenworthy's drawings. I can see a number of problems between them.
I have never done the process that you are talking about, so it may be that is the reason for the differences. One of the things I noticed, was the the way the top stone seems to flow behind the bottom trail map.
Perhaps it is just these old eyes.
Take care,
Joe
I understand that you believe that Kenworthy sent you actual photos of the Stone Maps, but there is no doubt in my mind that they are drawings. It's not so much that they look like drawings, which they do, but there are some very noticeable differences between his drawings and the actual pictures.
Print out the two trail pictures I have posted in Member Archive and compare them to Kenworthy's drawings. I can see a number of problems between them.
I have never done the process that you are talking about, so it may be that is the reason for the differences. One of the things I noticed, was the the way the top stone seems to flow behind the bottom trail map.
Perhaps it is just these old eyes.
Take care,
Joe
Stone Maps @ Mesa Museum
Gary, as noted in my last posting, I PERSONALLY viewed the Stone Maps in the Mesa Museum in 1992. I did not move to Phoenix until 1990 and it was two years before I really got interested in the LDM and its lore. It could have been that the Flagg Foundation "owned" the stones and they were being kept by Mesa Museum, but nonetheless that's where I viewed them in 1992.
Jay Fraser in the book I referenced above, Lost Dutchman Mine Discoveries and A History of Arizona Mining (1988), writes on page 21: ".... stone tablets on display in the Mesa Southwest Museum apparently found near the Superstition Mountains in Arizona in 1949." This reference to the Mesa Museum led me to contact them and arrange for a viewing of the Stone Maps. I had to pay a graduate student $15/hr to sit/stand and watch me while I examined the stones. I used a magnifying glass and made several "rubbings" of areas that I was interested. I already had adequate photo's of the stones for general use.
Here's a couple of additional references on publications with photo/drawings of the Stone Maps:
1. "The Peralta Cache" by Ernest W. Larson (1975), 120+ pages. B & W drawings of the map faces.
2. "Fool's Gold" by Robert Sikorsky (1983), 120+ pages. B&W photo's of the Stone Maps with white tape covering several areas. Here is an interesting note he made on page 117: "Photos in this chapter (pages 111 - 116) taken by the author with permission, courtesy of the A.L.Flagg Foundation and Mesa Museum, Mesa, Arizona."
The reference note by Sikorsky seems to support the Stone Maps being at the Mesa Museum but owned by the Flagg Foundation at least in 1983.
Roger
Jay Fraser in the book I referenced above, Lost Dutchman Mine Discoveries and A History of Arizona Mining (1988), writes on page 21: ".... stone tablets on display in the Mesa Southwest Museum apparently found near the Superstition Mountains in Arizona in 1949." This reference to the Mesa Museum led me to contact them and arrange for a viewing of the Stone Maps. I had to pay a graduate student $15/hr to sit/stand and watch me while I examined the stones. I used a magnifying glass and made several "rubbings" of areas that I was interested. I already had adequate photo's of the stones for general use.
Here's a couple of additional references on publications with photo/drawings of the Stone Maps:
1. "The Peralta Cache" by Ernest W. Larson (1975), 120+ pages. B & W drawings of the map faces.
2. "Fool's Gold" by Robert Sikorsky (1983), 120+ pages. B&W photo's of the Stone Maps with white tape covering several areas. Here is an interesting note he made on page 117: "Photos in this chapter (pages 111 - 116) taken by the author with permission, courtesy of the A.L.Flagg Foundation and Mesa Museum, Mesa, Arizona."
The reference note by Sikorsky seems to support the Stone Maps being at the Mesa Museum but owned by the Flagg Foundation at least in 1983.
Roger
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Stone Maps
Roger,
"I personally viewed the stones at the Mesa Museum in 1992 and I would have to believe they were authentic based on the natural wear on the Don and Cross sides."
At first I had to agree with the above statement, but than this question came to mind: What caused that natural wear? Since those two stone were buried around three feet deep, how did they become worn by what appears to be the elements? They have the same look as if they were sand blasted.
The first stone to be found was the Priest/Horse stone, which was actually protruding from the surface of the ground. That being the case, why no wear on that stone?
I have examined the "original" Stone Maps, but have to say that the pictures I have are the next best thing to having them setting on your desk. Possibly even better because of the enhancement you can do with your computer.
Any way, the above questions seemed a reasonable progression in this thread. I hope you don't feel I am attacking you, because I am only questioning the evidence that we all have. Wish I had thought of those questions 20 or 30 years ago.
Take care,
Joe
"I personally viewed the stones at the Mesa Museum in 1992 and I would have to believe they were authentic based on the natural wear on the Don and Cross sides."
At first I had to agree with the above statement, but than this question came to mind: What caused that natural wear? Since those two stone were buried around three feet deep, how did they become worn by what appears to be the elements? They have the same look as if they were sand blasted.
The first stone to be found was the Priest/Horse stone, which was actually protruding from the surface of the ground. That being the case, why no wear on that stone?
I have examined the "original" Stone Maps, but have to say that the pictures I have are the next best thing to having them setting on your desk. Possibly even better because of the enhancement you can do with your computer.
Any way, the above questions seemed a reasonable progression in this thread. I hope you don't feel I am attacking you, because I am only questioning the evidence that we all have. Wish I had thought of those questions 20 or 30 years ago.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Stone Maps
Well not that I'm Roger, but I believe I can answer this question when I say that we have no idea what condition the stones were in before they were buried. If they had wear and were buried like that, they would be dug up with the same wear...Joe Ribaudo wrote:What caused that natural wear? Since those two stone were buried around three feet deep, how did they become worn by what appears to be the elements? They have the same look as if they were sand blasted.
Joe
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Heart Insert
Looking at the photos Joe provided, I noticed the Heart Insert appears to have been broken in two directions and the break shows up all the way through the stone. When I look at the photograph of the stones on the bumper while they were still in the possession on the Tumlinsons, I see the same break lines.
In the photos, they appear to have been glued back together? Is this just an optical illusion? Is there evidences of glue?
If the heart insert was broken, was it done after Travis dug up the stone and he repaired it, or was it already repaired before he dug it up? (Assuming he dug it up?)
I guess my question is what am I seeing?
Garry
In the photos, they appear to have been glued back together? Is this just an optical illusion? Is there evidences of glue?
If the heart insert was broken, was it done after Travis dug up the stone and he repaired it, or was it already repaired before he dug it up? (Assuming he dug it up?)
I guess my question is what am I seeing?
Garry
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Broken Heart
Garry,
As I understand it the heart was broken after the stones were found.
All things considered, it certainly seems like the trail map are from a different era, or that they were laid on a flat surface, trail carvings down, and sand blasted to give the appearance of many years exposure to the elements.
Even if you go by the several accounts of the "history" of the Stone Maps, none of them mention them laying out in the desert for a hundred years or so. You will still need to explalin the good condition of the Priest/Horse stone.
Joe
As I understand it the heart was broken after the stones were found.
All things considered, it certainly seems like the trail map are from a different era, or that they were laid on a flat surface, trail carvings down, and sand blasted to give the appearance of many years exposure to the elements.
Even if you go by the several accounts of the "history" of the Stone Maps, none of them mention them laying out in the desert for a hundred years or so. You will still need to explalin the good condition of the Priest/Horse stone.
Joe
Stones Broken after Discovery
Joe,
From whom did you hear the story that the heart was broken after it was found? I had never heard that before. Sounds logical for the story to work?
You seem to be suggesting that they have definitely been repaired and it would have happend while in the possession of the Tumlinsons?
Was it in four pieces? (Your Opinion?)
Thanks,
Garry
From whom did you hear the story that the heart was broken after it was found? I had never heard that before. Sounds logical for the story to work?
You seem to be suggesting that they have definitely been repaired and it would have happend while in the possession of the Tumlinsons?
Was it in four pieces? (Your Opinion?)
Thanks,
Garry