NATIONAL WILDERNESS

[RONN]

I would like to know just exactly what restrictions are placed on the HOBBY of looking for the LDM, since the passage of the Wilderness Act in 1964 and its implimentation in 1984. What can a person do or not do? I am retired and disabled and still hoping to make my first trip to the Superstitions this coming October. I need help if this is possible. Any opinions would be very much appreciated. Email me if you wish further details. Thank You!
RONN

[djui5]

Ronn,
You are free to hike and camp as you wish, up to 14 days at a time with a week break. You can NOT do any digging, mining, or use any motorized vehicles. That sums it up somewhat nicely

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ronn,

Welcome to the LDM Forum.

There are many people with disabilities who make their way into the Superstitions each year. The key for everyone who visits the enterior, is preparation.

You have made the most important step in your first trip.....asking for advise. It's critical to make an honest appraisal of your physical abilities and the areas you want to explore.

Trusting the people you choose to make the trip with is also a big factor.
Letting each of them know your limitations will help them prepare for any emergency that might arise.

Years ago, my uncle had made a trip into the Superstitions with a friend who (I believe) was a doctor. Chuck was around 5'6" and was probably close to 150#......pretty much all muscle. I believe the Doctor, who was over 200#, had his heart attack somewhere around Palamino Mt. Chuck carried him out on his back.......all the way to First Water Trailhead.

Anything can happen in those mountains, and it's a really good thing to have someone like Chuck around to save your ass. Men like that are very hard to find these days. Choose your fellow searchers carefully.

For every real hand that knows those mountains, there are 100 blowhards. I would suggest you talk to Ron Feldman at the OK Corral in Goldfield.

Good luck and, once again, Welcome.

Joe Ribaudo

[RONN]

Joe- I am very grateful for your words of wisdom. They are very much appreciated. I emailed Feldman but now I can’t find the email so I will wait to see if I get some kind of answer. Apparently he doesn’t check this web site too often. From my multitude of books and publications on the southwest I can not help believe that many fortunes await the serious type people. But I have a question. Suppose, beyond the shadow of a doubt, someone does find the LDM. Then what? Are the spoils seized by the government, or? That is assuming it is not ore but gold that has already been processed and ready to sell shall we say. In reality so much gold yet to be found and once again the government feels they are doling the right thing by standing in the way. Something like big brother is watching you! Disgusting in my book.
Best of everything Joe
Ronn

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ronn,

Your question is one that gets asked many times. Everyone wonders what they would do if they found a treasure. Each person will have their own answer to that question, just as you will.

Treasures and mines have undoubtably been found in the Superstitions....in modern times. Each time, I am sure, the finders had to weigh the risks against the rewards.

I would think that gold bars would be worth considerable risk. On the other hand, an old mine would only be worth working if the ore was extremely rich. Any man who would work....say an old silver mine in the Superstitions, today, would IMHO be a fool.

Thanks for the kind words.

Good luck and take care,

Joe

[RONN]

Joe –
I wish you to know that I am highly appreciative of your time and trouble in answering some of my posts. Yet the more I read the more confused I seem to get. I read somewhere that Ron Feldman received a Treasure Trove Permit for what specific reason I do not know. In order to obtain a permit I assume he has to reveal what he has found so to speak.

Also, again I found correspondence that literally speaks of Ron having free reign in the Superstitions. That did not sit well with me because it almost speaks of politics. I do not know Ron other than what I have found in the various web sites. However, I do have a very high opinion of him and what he is trying to do. But I am truly puzzled as to his part in the Superstitions mystery.

In summing up everything that I have come across in the past week of intense studying of the various web sites I have come to the conclusion that anyone with a solid reason, gold or not, should be able to obtain permission to study and explore the Superstitions. Mind you it would not have to be gold but for archeological reasons as well. It seems to me that many loopholes exist in the law. I have spent 34 years working as a U.S. Customs Broker, and I have been exposed to many loopholes – too many to mention, but loopholes nevertheless.

As mentioned before, I am disabled and to go into the Superstitions to truly search and dig would be an impossibility for me. However, my ‘excitement’ if you will, comes from people like you and people that are slowly making their name heard in the mystery. You might wish to look at the website ‘DesertUSA’, where I posted more of a psychological post. (Way at the end of many pages of posts). Joe, being disabled at my age (74) has its advantages as well, in that I have nothing but time to read and study and study. Right now I am in the process of going to old bookstores looking for any old publications on the LDM. Further, I no doubt will obtain more books that the Museum is selling. My favorite so far is ‘The Sterling Legend’ as written by Estee Conatser. I just about have the whole book memorized. The LA Times is another source that I have to check out as I do remember seeing an article back in the 70’s regarding the LDM being found.

What I am really trying to do is put everyone’s opinion in one ‘state of mind’ so to speak. Learn how others interpret various things and see if I can zero in on only one solid set of clues. By the way, although I am 74 people still tell me I look to be in my 50’s. I went to a restaurant the other day and asked for the senior discount and they almost refused saying “you’re not over 65”. Oh well, nice I suppose, but disabled not nice.

I believe the Lost Dutchman mine exists. But I also believe that the only way for someone to find it is to literally stumble over it when they are not actually looking. If this should happen then I would assume that person could easily obtain a permit to work his find. Oh and one other thing. Assuming a person has a permit, does that mean he can retain the spoils of his discovery or does he have to turn it over to the government? In that light I also ran into a post that mentioned Pres. Bush having a secret relationship with someone in the Superstitions that is supplying him with millions in gold. A bit far fetched I would say.

However, in conclusion I still say that if the LDM is found no one will know about it. It will end up being the best kept secret in town. I have not emailed Ron directly as yet, however, after continuing my studies I will eventually contact him for further advice. Joe, to me it is not really the gold; rather it is the search that has me absolutely mesmerized.

Thank you again, Joe, for your always kind and detailed words, as they are much appreciated, and you have been most kind to a ‘tenderfoot’.

Kindest Regards,
Ron Nickel
(Ronn)
PS: Leave it to me to be the one that actually stumbles on the LDM. Then what would I do???

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ronn,

"However, in conclusion I still say that if the LDM is found no one will know about it. It will end up being the best kept secret in town."

While others will disagree with me, it is not the best kept secret in town. It is, however, the most denied secret in town.

As for what Ron Feldman was after and how he got his permit, I would suggest you ask Ron. While I know the answers, it would be best to get them from the horse's mouth.

I know that Ron does not have "free reign in the Superstitions". He does, however, have some folks who may be less than friends, who might spread some stories around. Some of them used to post on this Forum.

"But I also believe that the only way for someone to find it is to literally stumble over it...."

That comment really brings a smile to my face.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

Here is a link to purchase the report concerning the dig:

http://www.okcorrals.com/western_novel_order.php

There is also a documentary due next spring. Here is a link to the original site.

http://www.dutchhunter.com/home.htm

Lots of stuff to look through there.

Here is a promo poster from the MyHorizon site:

http://myhorizonpictures.com/last_treas ... poster.htm


There are a half dozen people who believe they currently have pinpointed the LDM. There are easily ten times that many to have made claims they found it.

Two stories that interest me are the Harry LaFrance story and the Celeste Jones buried crosses story. I don't know if the Jones story has been commented on here, but it can be found in Bob Wards book.

Is either story true? What did either gain from this? In both instances it seems like such a brief fifteen minutes of fame. For every lie, there is a grain of truth. Randy and I have been trying to figure out why people did what they did in a methodical manner. People necessarily aren't where they should be at times.........it can be puzzling, but also revealing.

Jacob Waltz complained that no one was listening to him, same words Herman Petrasch uses. I believe Dick Holmes had a similar incident with his father. I also believe the rift between the Petraschs was similar. People like to jump to interpretation or think they know what you mean before you finish.

I hope we can prove or disprove some things at least to ourselves. I doubt I will care who believes me in the end. If Randy is standing there with a big smile, that will be enough.

I am sure there are enough LDMs for everyone.......

[RONN]

Thank you so very, very much for your post. I consider it a very valuable addition to my document collection. Now as soon as I find the LDM I will call you. Or better yet, you call me.
Thanks again,
Ronn

[zentull]

I could find nothing that really covered the Jones gold cross incident in detail on the forum, so I will cover it here briefly(I am not sure on the availability of Wards book anymore) from what I remember.

Bob Ward claimed he was asked to meet Celeste Jones and her partner/Boyfriend Louis at her camp. They proceeded from camp with 2 duffel bags or sacks and spent a couple of days travelling to a high peak where they were buried. They made some scrapings on a rock nearby to identify the area. Ward says he never was allowed to handle the bags and was some distance away when he saw the crosses before they were buried. He seemed confused of the purpose of his even being there, unless it was to witness the event. The crosses were of various sizes and looked to be made of gold. I believe he claimed there were around a hundred total and the smallest was 3 inches high.

The story itself seems so unreliable and phoney, but even Ward had no idea of what it was all about and why he was picked to simply follow them around. Odd choice for inclusion in his book the way he told it.

[RONN]

Hi All – I have read a myriad of books and read just about everything I could on the internet. Yet one question escapes me and with all due respect I would appreciate an answer as this continues to puzzle me. Maybe I’m stupid, I don’t know. In searching for the LDM, how does one know when they have found it? What identifying features will tell you that this is it! A mine with tons of gold ingots? What exactly can you say identifies the LDM?
Thank you all, as I appreciate your time.

[djui5]

I'm sure you'll know when you find it

[zentull]

That is an excellent question and one that would be more difficult to answer with every book you could read.

If the mine is linked to the Haywood story it would be very different from the generally accepted idea of where the mine should be located.

Thomas, Petrasch and Deering are very similar to a degree and do sync up with Holmes in that it appears the mine is approached from above, rather than below. However now we are dealing with 2 pits and a tunnel( Thomas, Petrasch and Deering) and a single pit with no mention of a tunnel(Holmes).

The Kochera ore seems similar, but is likely from a different source. The deathbed ore is validated just by Holmes statements. That feud cost everyone some valuable cross referencing between Holmes and Petrasch.

Of course are the Sombrera mine and the LDM one and the same? Is Waltz's mine even accounted among the Apache covered mines? For every description there is the possibility the mines are separate accounts that have evolved and been thrown together.

John Spangler had passed along some good ideas concerning the terrain and ideas concerning the location, but as with Jim Bark, are they necessarily accurate or just unrelated fragments set together?

I believe if the ore was a match to the deathbed ore and the location could resolve some of the different Petrasch/Holmes variations, you could be close. Waltz's camp and cache in relation to a particular find might be the best bet. If the ore from a cache and a pit matched the deathbed ore and Waltz's storyline it could be very close. I would look for the small incidental things more so. The 2 mexicans remains, the camp and cache and the pit and the relationship of each. These things would be quite credible if in the right relationship to each other. The clues are suspect at times.

Hopefully everyone will chime in once they give it some thought. It is a tough question and shows to a degree how little we really have to go on.