Wasp,
I won’t have to wait until I can get to Greg’s to see both sides of the matchbox. I had an image of a plain back side. I had no thought that there might be Quartz ore on both the front and back!
Great Photos!
Roger,
I believe you are correct about the type of lid.
I may have read the Milton Rose story once upon a time but I did not remember it. Kudos for surfacing it. Food for thought indeed.
Thanks to you both,
Garry
The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Roger, Novice,
The lid of the matchbox does not have a hinge, it slips on and off and Roger is correct about the faint line showing where the lid and body of the matchbox seperate.
The ore used for the matchbox is from one single deposit. The dark areas Roger noted are extremely small pyramid shaped inlays. To make a more attractive piece of craftsmanship, the jewler chose a few pieces of the ore that contained specks of gold in the darker inclusions of that ore. He crafted them into geometric pyramids along the lid of the matchbox, alternating white quartz with the darker quartz inclusions. I don't know if people really appreciate the thought and craftsmanship that went into the making of this piece.
Quartz gold ore does not exclusively form in any one color of pure quartz. Look at the main body of the ore in the first photo of the matchbox on page 3. You will note small black spots and streaks. Those black spots are inclusions, traces of antimony, arsenic, sapheralite and galena present in most gold ore deposits. In the main body of the matchbox the jewler chose a slab that contained very few of these inclusions. In some of the tiny pyramid inlays however, he chose pieces of the ore that contained gold in larger pieces with these dark inclusions. He did this for contrast and to make a stunning geometric impact. It is the same ore, not ore from two seperate deposits.
Look again at the main body of the matchbox in the first photo on page 3. Focus on the upper left hand corner and across the top of that slab of ore. You should easily see the rose color hue to the quartz. Lower down on that same slab of ore, the quartz blends into a milky white. Visual proof that gold forms in quartz of varying color.
If you took a single small piece of ore from this deposit, it might show gold only in milky white quartz. Another small piece might show the gold in white-rose quartz and still another in a greyish color quartz.
Roger quotes someone who saw a specimine of ore Waltz showed him that was hematite quartz of 1/3 pure gold. Hematite quartz and gold deposits are so distinctive there would be no question if the matchbox ore were hematite. There is no indication whatsoever of hematite in the matchbox ore.
Milton Rose wrote things the way he heard them. His writing in Rainbow's End makes two basic errors in geology. He says the ore is called Rose Quartz. Rose Quartz is not the ore, it is the matrix the gold is attached to. Then he says the matrix was granite country rock. The granite country rock is not the matrix, it is the host rock the ore formed in. What he meant was the gold is in Rose Quartz matrix. As you can visualy see from the first photo on page 3, the matchbox contains gold in a Rose Quartz matrix.
Joe,
I do not agree with any of Dr. Glover's statements on page 275 of his book, The Golden Dream. There has been and still is a mines and minerology department at the University of Arizona. They have an extensive collection of ore from every known deposit in Arizona that is available, and Dutchman ore had been extensively tested long before Dr. Glover did his EDS testing at the University of Nevada. Dr. Glover believed what he wrote, but was not working from a full and complete knowledge of the facts and took other things out of context to come to his conclusion.
The following report is from an analysis done over 40 years ago on some of the exact same ore Dr. Glover EDS tested at the University of Nevada in 1997. Certain parts have had to be blacked out to protect the owner of the gold ore and who contracted to have the analysis done. The resulting analysis of the testing done over 40 years ago concludes the ore tested can be matched to no other known ore deposit anywhere in Arizona.
In my opinion, I believe Dr. Glover made an error with his testing by not focusing on the most important part of the test, identifying what TYPE of gold ore deposit the 4 different ores he tested were formed as. Dr. Glover instead focused on the different elements that each of the 4 samples included and then tried to compare them. This was an error because he did not have enough of a sample of any of the 4 ore samples to make a definate determination of the differences. Example: One of the ore samples might have an EDS trace of dolomite while the other three samples didn't show any EDS dolomite. This could easily be as simple as it was present in all 4 ore deposits, but only showed up in one because Dr. Glover didn't have enough of a sample of any of the ores to get a full, acurate picture. The ore tested over 40 years ago was a sample of over 7 pounds including matrix and host rock.
The lid of the matchbox does not have a hinge, it slips on and off and Roger is correct about the faint line showing where the lid and body of the matchbox seperate.
The ore used for the matchbox is from one single deposit. The dark areas Roger noted are extremely small pyramid shaped inlays. To make a more attractive piece of craftsmanship, the jewler chose a few pieces of the ore that contained specks of gold in the darker inclusions of that ore. He crafted them into geometric pyramids along the lid of the matchbox, alternating white quartz with the darker quartz inclusions. I don't know if people really appreciate the thought and craftsmanship that went into the making of this piece.
Quartz gold ore does not exclusively form in any one color of pure quartz. Look at the main body of the ore in the first photo of the matchbox on page 3. You will note small black spots and streaks. Those black spots are inclusions, traces of antimony, arsenic, sapheralite and galena present in most gold ore deposits. In the main body of the matchbox the jewler chose a slab that contained very few of these inclusions. In some of the tiny pyramid inlays however, he chose pieces of the ore that contained gold in larger pieces with these dark inclusions. He did this for contrast and to make a stunning geometric impact. It is the same ore, not ore from two seperate deposits.
Look again at the main body of the matchbox in the first photo on page 3. Focus on the upper left hand corner and across the top of that slab of ore. You should easily see the rose color hue to the quartz. Lower down on that same slab of ore, the quartz blends into a milky white. Visual proof that gold forms in quartz of varying color.
If you took a single small piece of ore from this deposit, it might show gold only in milky white quartz. Another small piece might show the gold in white-rose quartz and still another in a greyish color quartz.
Roger quotes someone who saw a specimine of ore Waltz showed him that was hematite quartz of 1/3 pure gold. Hematite quartz and gold deposits are so distinctive there would be no question if the matchbox ore were hematite. There is no indication whatsoever of hematite in the matchbox ore.
Milton Rose wrote things the way he heard them. His writing in Rainbow's End makes two basic errors in geology. He says the ore is called Rose Quartz. Rose Quartz is not the ore, it is the matrix the gold is attached to. Then he says the matrix was granite country rock. The granite country rock is not the matrix, it is the host rock the ore formed in. What he meant was the gold is in Rose Quartz matrix. As you can visualy see from the first photo on page 3, the matchbox contains gold in a Rose Quartz matrix.
Joe,
I do not agree with any of Dr. Glover's statements on page 275 of his book, The Golden Dream. There has been and still is a mines and minerology department at the University of Arizona. They have an extensive collection of ore from every known deposit in Arizona that is available, and Dutchman ore had been extensively tested long before Dr. Glover did his EDS testing at the University of Nevada. Dr. Glover believed what he wrote, but was not working from a full and complete knowledge of the facts and took other things out of context to come to his conclusion.
The following report is from an analysis done over 40 years ago on some of the exact same ore Dr. Glover EDS tested at the University of Nevada in 1997. Certain parts have had to be blacked out to protect the owner of the gold ore and who contracted to have the analysis done. The resulting analysis of the testing done over 40 years ago concludes the ore tested can be matched to no other known ore deposit anywhere in Arizona.
In my opinion, I believe Dr. Glover made an error with his testing by not focusing on the most important part of the test, identifying what TYPE of gold ore deposit the 4 different ores he tested were formed as. Dr. Glover instead focused on the different elements that each of the 4 samples included and then tried to compare them. This was an error because he did not have enough of a sample of any of the 4 ore samples to make a definate determination of the differences. Example: One of the ore samples might have an EDS trace of dolomite while the other three samples didn't show any EDS dolomite. This could easily be as simple as it was present in all 4 ore deposits, but only showed up in one because Dr. Glover didn't have enough of a sample of any of the ores to get a full, acurate picture. The ore tested over 40 years ago was a sample of over 7 pounds including matrix and host rock.
- Dutchman ore assay report..jpg (72.6 KiB) Viewed 38719 times
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wow Wasp!! When you come to a party, you show up bearing GIFTS!!! 
Seriously, very interesting posts recently about the the dutchman ore and specifically the matchbox.
I think you just described in your last paragraph what my issue has been with SEM/EDX analysis of the ore/gold/matrix, etc.. and what I keep hearing about each ore deposit having it's own "fingerprint" so to speak.
I think in some ways it's a matter of everyone needing to speak the same language - and I'll be honest that I don't think I speak the geological language very well yet.
My point has always been that while I don't work with geological samples, I've spent my life doing chemical analyses of various other solid samples, and I know how critical it is to the entire analysis to get a representative sample - in fact, if that step is done incorrectly, it can invalidate all the rest of the work.
While SEM/EDX has one HUGE advantage over other analysis techniques in that it is non-destructive, a major (or at least major to me in this case) disadvantage is that one can only look at extremely small portions of a sample - which to me means you need to look at MANY of those small portions and mathematically come up with an average in order to get a better idea of the full picture. In many case, SEM/EDX is used to identify extremely small defects in things rather than an analysis to identify a large "matrix."
In the case you described about the inclusions being present containing a variety of elements, that means unless you happen to choose one of those specific spots to analyze, you're missing out on that elemental portion of the "whole." In order to get a picture of the "whole," one would need to do a huge sampling of spots, and it's not clear whether that was done or not.
What can certainly be done with SEM/EDX is analyze various portions of the gold itself and get a "fingerprint" so to speak of what other elements are present WITH the gold - not in the ore or matrix, but right there with the gold itself when it solidified from a molten mass long ago. Whether or not every portion of gold present in a specific vein of ore is composed of the exact same "fingerprint" of elements, I really don't know - I honestly doubt it, but I suppose it could be.
I always like analogys to try to paint a picture of an issue. I'll try one here that may not be all that great, but hopefully will help a little bit.
Let's say you have a 1' deep, 2' wide, 6' long box. You have 4 people with buckets and 4 drums of 1" diameter colored beads (each drum containing a separate color). Each person is assigned 1 of the drums and it's their task to dump a full bucket of their drum into the box every 15 seconds until the box is filled. There is no "mixing" or anything else that happens, the person just dumps it in wherever they want, however they want (fast or slow), etc...
When the box is finally filled, a sample of 1 bead is taken at random and "analyzed" for color. After each "analysis", a conclusion is made of the entire composition of the box.
I think you can see that the odds of determining the exact composition of the full box by randomly taking say a total of 20 x 1 bead samples is VERY SMALL. It would require one to have randomly drawn out 5 of each color exactly.
The perfect way to get the correct answer would be to analyze the ENTIRE box full, but that's never a viable option due to the amount of work and the fact that everything gets "destroyed."
The best way is to take a number of larger "grab" samples - in this case maybe taking 6 pint sized random grab samples from different locations, mixing them all together and counting the colors. The more grab samples you take, the better your approximation of the "whole."
I get the feeling that the assay report you presented here is exactly that - a combination of a number of random "grab" samples of matrix + host rock that were mixed together in some way to provide the most uniform/homogenous sample possible and then analyzed for all the properties listed.
When I look at it in this manner, and see an assay report such as you posted, I can absolutely understand and believe that every mine could have it's own specific "fingerprint" that makes it unique - at least until a new vein in a new host rock is exposed.
I hope you continue posting Wasp, as you've provided some insight that many of us have never seen! Thank you.
Seriously, very interesting posts recently about the the dutchman ore and specifically the matchbox.
I think you just described in your last paragraph what my issue has been with SEM/EDX analysis of the ore/gold/matrix, etc.. and what I keep hearing about each ore deposit having it's own "fingerprint" so to speak.
I think in some ways it's a matter of everyone needing to speak the same language - and I'll be honest that I don't think I speak the geological language very well yet.
My point has always been that while I don't work with geological samples, I've spent my life doing chemical analyses of various other solid samples, and I know how critical it is to the entire analysis to get a representative sample - in fact, if that step is done incorrectly, it can invalidate all the rest of the work.
While SEM/EDX has one HUGE advantage over other analysis techniques in that it is non-destructive, a major (or at least major to me in this case) disadvantage is that one can only look at extremely small portions of a sample - which to me means you need to look at MANY of those small portions and mathematically come up with an average in order to get a better idea of the full picture. In many case, SEM/EDX is used to identify extremely small defects in things rather than an analysis to identify a large "matrix."
In the case you described about the inclusions being present containing a variety of elements, that means unless you happen to choose one of those specific spots to analyze, you're missing out on that elemental portion of the "whole." In order to get a picture of the "whole," one would need to do a huge sampling of spots, and it's not clear whether that was done or not.
What can certainly be done with SEM/EDX is analyze various portions of the gold itself and get a "fingerprint" so to speak of what other elements are present WITH the gold - not in the ore or matrix, but right there with the gold itself when it solidified from a molten mass long ago. Whether or not every portion of gold present in a specific vein of ore is composed of the exact same "fingerprint" of elements, I really don't know - I honestly doubt it, but I suppose it could be.
I always like analogys to try to paint a picture of an issue. I'll try one here that may not be all that great, but hopefully will help a little bit.
Let's say you have a 1' deep, 2' wide, 6' long box. You have 4 people with buckets and 4 drums of 1" diameter colored beads (each drum containing a separate color). Each person is assigned 1 of the drums and it's their task to dump a full bucket of their drum into the box every 15 seconds until the box is filled. There is no "mixing" or anything else that happens, the person just dumps it in wherever they want, however they want (fast or slow), etc...
When the box is finally filled, a sample of 1 bead is taken at random and "analyzed" for color. After each "analysis", a conclusion is made of the entire composition of the box.
I think you can see that the odds of determining the exact composition of the full box by randomly taking say a total of 20 x 1 bead samples is VERY SMALL. It would require one to have randomly drawn out 5 of each color exactly.
The perfect way to get the correct answer would be to analyze the ENTIRE box full, but that's never a viable option due to the amount of work and the fact that everything gets "destroyed."
The best way is to take a number of larger "grab" samples - in this case maybe taking 6 pint sized random grab samples from different locations, mixing them all together and counting the colors. The more grab samples you take, the better your approximation of the "whole."
I get the feeling that the assay report you presented here is exactly that - a combination of a number of random "grab" samples of matrix + host rock that were mixed together in some way to provide the most uniform/homogenous sample possible and then analyzed for all the properties listed.
When I look at it in this manner, and see an assay report such as you posted, I can absolutely understand and believe that every mine could have it's own specific "fingerprint" that makes it unique - at least until a new vein in a new host rock is exposed.
I hope you continue posting Wasp, as you've provided some insight that many of us have never seen! Thank you.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
Great post.
As I said:
["If we assume the affidavit is a true statement of facts, what does that tell us? The best thing to do, is read the affidavit in Helen Corbin's book, and then read what Dr. Glover has to say on pages, 274 & 275 of "......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Something is amiss."
It's the best thing to do until someone comes along who knows the historical facts. It seems what was amiss, was all of the facts.]
I believe Dr. Glover's information was the best we had, until you posted your's.
It may be that the information you posted is common knowledge among some Dutch Hunters, but I doubt anyone here had an inkling that the document you posted existed.
That is why we are here.......seeking such evidence.
I would assume that no one who had this information shared it with Dr. Glover. He gave us what he could gather from the sources he used. I believe every author does the same. In the process of writing his book, he went to great lengths to get the true facts. As is the case with all of us, it may be that the truth was elusive.
Each of us here, tries to pass along what we learn in our individual research. There is no guarantee that our sources have been truthful, or factual. When that happens, the facts will be questioned, and often the true facts will come to light. That should not reflect negatively on Dr. Glover, or any of us. Rather we should each receive kudos for our efforts, even when we come out wrong.
I, for one, have no problem accepting any truth that contradicts what I have found. In fact, I welcome it. I know for a fact that my friend, Thomas, does as well. He has mentioned that he expects errors in his work, and has asked for corrections, which he will put into any subsequent printings.
His body of work is not perfect but, IMHO, the massive personal research he has done deserves respect, just as yours does.
Thank you for bringing us the wood for our little fire.
Take care,
Joe
Great post.
As I said:
["If we assume the affidavit is a true statement of facts, what does that tell us? The best thing to do, is read the affidavit in Helen Corbin's book, and then read what Dr. Glover has to say on pages, 274 & 275 of "......Part 1: The Golden Dream". Something is amiss."
It's the best thing to do until someone comes along who knows the historical facts. It seems what was amiss, was all of the facts.]
I believe Dr. Glover's information was the best we had, until you posted your's.
It may be that the information you posted is common knowledge among some Dutch Hunters, but I doubt anyone here had an inkling that the document you posted existed.
That is why we are here.......seeking such evidence.
I would assume that no one who had this information shared it with Dr. Glover. He gave us what he could gather from the sources he used. I believe every author does the same. In the process of writing his book, he went to great lengths to get the true facts. As is the case with all of us, it may be that the truth was elusive.
Each of us here, tries to pass along what we learn in our individual research. There is no guarantee that our sources have been truthful, or factual. When that happens, the facts will be questioned, and often the true facts will come to light. That should not reflect negatively on Dr. Glover, or any of us. Rather we should each receive kudos for our efforts, even when we come out wrong.
I, for one, have no problem accepting any truth that contradicts what I have found. In fact, I welcome it. I know for a fact that my friend, Thomas, does as well. He has mentioned that he expects errors in his work, and has asked for corrections, which he will put into any subsequent printings.
His body of work is not perfect but, IMHO, the massive personal research he has done deserves respect, just as yours does.
Thank you for bringing us the wood for our little fire.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
After reading Joe's post, I thought I should clarify as well that I in no way mean to imply that any of Dr. Glover's work in the chapter specific to analyzing Dutchman ore is inaccurate. At this stage of the game, destructive analysis of any ores possibly associated with Waltz's ore just isn't viable - non-destructive methods such as SEM/EDX are some of the best options available and certainly can provide valuable information.
The more different analytical tools used, the more complete the picture becomes.
The more different analytical tools used, the more complete the picture becomes.
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Joe,
What Dr. Glover did in his research and testing is nothing short of remarkable. Just the fact he was able to get 4-5 dutch hunters to get together and give up their ore for an independant analysis is amazing. I don't fault him a bit for his work or how he obtained the results he was able to certify. It is merely from my own personal perspective that I wish the testing had a different course and focus. He accomplished what few if any could have done and for that he has to be applauded. He gave everyone a much better picture and understanding of the dutchman ore and the difficult process involved in analyzing ore and coming to any definite conclusion. Dr. Glover was working with all the information that was known to him at that time.
Cubfan64,
You have an amazing grasp of the complex problems involved with ore analization. Ore analysis and assay testing are two completely different things. As you pointed out, the size of the sample being analized is a critically important factor. When you take a small item such as the matchbox, and a few small sample specimine pieces of gold in quartz, you get a good picture of what is present in front of you, but you do not get the whole picture of the ore deposit in total. Dr. Glover's testing did do a comprehensive spectrum analysis of the gold present, and all the elements found with that gold imbedded in the quartz. That is a huge step forward and allows someone to compare those found elements. But every ore deposit and gold/quartz formation is not uniform or equally deposited throughout the specific deposit. The genetic makeup of the vein can change as you move across the width of the quartz. without having a representative sample of the gold from throughout the entire deposit, and a sample of the contact points and host rock, you may very well be looking at less than 25% of the minerology and makeup of the deposit.
Almost all quartz vein gold deposits are loaded with the gold and other metallic minerals on one side of the vein, usually close to the contact point where the quartz meets the host country rock. As you move away from the loaded side, toward the opposite side of the quartz vein, the quartz and metallic minerals change considerably and start to disapate. Often, one side of the vein holds all the gold and metals and the other side is completely barren quartz. This can be true in a quartz vein 24" wide or 2" wide.
The ore analysis and comparison done over 40 years ago had over 7 pounds of sample material. That was precious little and in it's own right, should have been more, but that was all that could have been spared, as 40 years ago, all the testing was destructive.
For all the testing and assay's of ores that have been done over the years, no one today can definitively say where the Lost Dutchman mine is or where Jacob Waltz got the ore that was under his bed when he died. While some may speculate the location of that mine, myself included, I cannot say with certainty where that mine is.
What Dr. Glover did in his research and testing is nothing short of remarkable. Just the fact he was able to get 4-5 dutch hunters to get together and give up their ore for an independant analysis is amazing. I don't fault him a bit for his work or how he obtained the results he was able to certify. It is merely from my own personal perspective that I wish the testing had a different course and focus. He accomplished what few if any could have done and for that he has to be applauded. He gave everyone a much better picture and understanding of the dutchman ore and the difficult process involved in analyzing ore and coming to any definite conclusion. Dr. Glover was working with all the information that was known to him at that time.
Cubfan64,
You have an amazing grasp of the complex problems involved with ore analization. Ore analysis and assay testing are two completely different things. As you pointed out, the size of the sample being analized is a critically important factor. When you take a small item such as the matchbox, and a few small sample specimine pieces of gold in quartz, you get a good picture of what is present in front of you, but you do not get the whole picture of the ore deposit in total. Dr. Glover's testing did do a comprehensive spectrum analysis of the gold present, and all the elements found with that gold imbedded in the quartz. That is a huge step forward and allows someone to compare those found elements. But every ore deposit and gold/quartz formation is not uniform or equally deposited throughout the specific deposit. The genetic makeup of the vein can change as you move across the width of the quartz. without having a representative sample of the gold from throughout the entire deposit, and a sample of the contact points and host rock, you may very well be looking at less than 25% of the minerology and makeup of the deposit.
Almost all quartz vein gold deposits are loaded with the gold and other metallic minerals on one side of the vein, usually close to the contact point where the quartz meets the host country rock. As you move away from the loaded side, toward the opposite side of the quartz vein, the quartz and metallic minerals change considerably and start to disapate. Often, one side of the vein holds all the gold and metals and the other side is completely barren quartz. This can be true in a quartz vein 24" wide or 2" wide.
The ore analysis and comparison done over 40 years ago had over 7 pounds of sample material. That was precious little and in it's own right, should have been more, but that was all that could have been spared, as 40 years ago, all the testing was destructive.
For all the testing and assay's of ores that have been done over the years, no one today can definitively say where the Lost Dutchman mine is or where Jacob Waltz got the ore that was under his bed when he died. While some may speculate the location of that mine, myself included, I cannot say with certainty where that mine is.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
Maybe what we should be trying to get is some of the ore from the newly discovered vein in the Mammoth Mine. I understand that it's been said that Ron believes the mine is, or was, the LDM. Must be some pretty rich ore.
I agree with your wishes for how the Glover testing was done. In truth, it reminds me, somewhat, of the examination that was done on the Stone Maps. I wish the archaeologist's had been given more time with the stones. They were restricted in their research by time, and Dr. Glover was restricted in his research by volume of material and the type of testing that could be done.
As usual, we are all left wondering.......what if?
Take care,
Joe
Maybe what we should be trying to get is some of the ore from the newly discovered vein in the Mammoth Mine. I understand that it's been said that Ron believes the mine is, or was, the LDM. Must be some pretty rich ore.
I agree with your wishes for how the Glover testing was done. In truth, it reminds me, somewhat, of the examination that was done on the Stone Maps. I wish the archaeologist's had been given more time with the stones. They were restricted in their research by time, and Dr. Glover was restricted in his research by volume of material and the type of testing that could be done.
As usual, we are all left wondering.......what if?
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
"While some may speculate the location of that mine, myself included, I cannot say with certainty where that mine is."
As you know, I am one of those who have speculated where the LDM is. Never having searched for it, that may put me at a disadvantage, but I believe the LDM is what is being called the Silver Chief today. Without ore, it still has a great deal of "evidence" that fits. That's no guarantee, but it's a start. Jesse Feldman and David Leach have also stated their belief that it's the LDM. My guess is that Jack SanFelice also believes it, although I don't think he has voiced that.
Perhaps someone who helped clean out that mine in the late 90's, will read this and send us an anaymous sample that can be tested. On the other hand, maybe it's best that we never know.
Take care,
Joe
"While some may speculate the location of that mine, myself included, I cannot say with certainty where that mine is."
As you know, I am one of those who have speculated where the LDM is. Never having searched for it, that may put me at a disadvantage, but I believe the LDM is what is being called the Silver Chief today. Without ore, it still has a great deal of "evidence" that fits. That's no guarantee, but it's a start. Jesse Feldman and David Leach have also stated their belief that it's the LDM. My guess is that Jack SanFelice also believes it, although I don't think he has voiced that.
Perhaps someone who helped clean out that mine in the late 90's, will read this and send us an anaymous sample that can be tested. On the other hand, maybe it's best that we never know.
Take care,
Joe
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
thank you mr wasp...
sediments, granite, and polymetalic.
why do i feel like i could drive right to that location?
so... is the joke the dutchman is at the dons camp? maybe a bit south of the old board house? red spots?
right under barks nose.
lol...now that would be a giggle.
sediments, granite, and polymetalic.
why do i feel like i could drive right to that location?
so... is the joke the dutchman is at the dons camp? maybe a bit south of the old board house? red spots?
right under barks nose.
lol...now that would be a giggle.
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Tag post, please ignore, but will add this - very interesting thread! Finally someone has addressed the most important evidence and only key evidence which could prove absolutely whether someone has found the mine of Jacob Waltz - the ORE! Thank you!
Oroblanco
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
"send us an anaymous sample" 
Then again, maybe they will send us an anonymous sample.
Hello Roy,
Welcome back.
Joe
Then again, maybe they will send us an anonymous sample.
Hello Roy,
Welcome back.
Joe
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Hey Roy!!
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
Would it be possible to post pages 2 & 3 of the LDM Ore, Assay Report?
In any case, thanks again.
Take care,
Joe
Would it be possible to post pages 2 & 3 of the LDM Ore, Assay Report?
In any case, thanks again.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Joe R.
Page 1 of the analysis dealt with identifying and certifying the precise genetic makeup of the ore sample.
Pages 2 and 3 deal with that ore sample analysis being identified for it's exact type of deposit, and compared to another known ore sample, and the findings of those two ores being compared to each other.
Even though this ore analysis was done over 40 years ago, and while two of the principals in that analysis have passed on, two are still alive today and one of them is actively involved in the process of searching and verifying known sites and their relationship to this ore analysis. Because of that fact, pages 2 and 3 cannot be posted. The ore analysis was a private arrangement and was never used, or ever intended to be used, to claim or patent any mine, it was done purely for the information of the individual persons who were involved.
While page 1 of the analysis is quite precise and specific, there are only 2 or 3 things on that page that are of real value to know. While many dutch enthusiasts believe the most important point of the LDM geology is decoding it's 'fingerprint", or genetic makeup, the most imortant point is the exact identification of the type of deposit the gold was formed as. Knowing the "fingerprint" is excellent information but without the knowledge of the exact type of deposit that formed that "fingerprint", you will be endlessly engaged in a spitting contest over minor elements that vary from one sample to the next, even samples taken from the exact same mine. Dr. Glover learned this to late in his ore analysis.
Page 1 of the analysis dealt with identifying and certifying the precise genetic makeup of the ore sample.
Pages 2 and 3 deal with that ore sample analysis being identified for it's exact type of deposit, and compared to another known ore sample, and the findings of those two ores being compared to each other.
Even though this ore analysis was done over 40 years ago, and while two of the principals in that analysis have passed on, two are still alive today and one of them is actively involved in the process of searching and verifying known sites and their relationship to this ore analysis. Because of that fact, pages 2 and 3 cannot be posted. The ore analysis was a private arrangement and was never used, or ever intended to be used, to claim or patent any mine, it was done purely for the information of the individual persons who were involved.
While page 1 of the analysis is quite precise and specific, there are only 2 or 3 things on that page that are of real value to know. While many dutch enthusiasts believe the most important point of the LDM geology is decoding it's 'fingerprint", or genetic makeup, the most imortant point is the exact identification of the type of deposit the gold was formed as. Knowing the "fingerprint" is excellent information but without the knowledge of the exact type of deposit that formed that "fingerprint", you will be endlessly engaged in a spitting contest over minor elements that vary from one sample to the next, even samples taken from the exact same mine. Dr. Glover learned this to late in his ore analysis.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
Thank you for your reply.
Whenever someone comes along with some "new", to me, information,
I often want "the rest of the story". I understand that can't always be told, but figure there's no harm in asking.
Hopefully you will continue to post, telling us more of the history for the LDM ore. It's a subject that has generated a great deal of speculation.
I doubt there is anyone here that would not love to hear more of what you can, comfortably, tell us.
Take care,
Joe
Thank you for your reply.
Whenever someone comes along with some "new", to me, information,
I often want "the rest of the story". I understand that can't always be told, but figure there's no harm in asking.
Hopefully you will continue to post, telling us more of the history for the LDM ore. It's a subject that has generated a great deal of speculation.
I doubt there is anyone here that would not love to hear more of what you can, comfortably, tell us.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
A big Dakota HOWDY to Randy, Joe, Paul and HOLA amigos to everyone!
I notice that a part of the minerals listed in the description has been blacked out - to help prevent someone else from locating the mine I suppose, but the minerals listed are enough to go pretty far in helping to ID any suspect ore. The page (missing) which has the exact breakdown of the amounts of gold and silver present are not too important, as these amounts vary considerably within ANY ore body. Thank you for posting it.
Oroblanco
I notice that a part of the minerals listed in the description has been blacked out - to help prevent someone else from locating the mine I suppose, but the minerals listed are enough to go pretty far in helping to ID any suspect ore. The page (missing) which has the exact breakdown of the amounts of gold and silver present are not too important, as these amounts vary considerably within ANY ore body. Thank you for posting it.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Ore Analysis
Wasp,
Not being very educated on mining/geology and unable to find anything on the internet, had one question on the ore analysis report you shared with us. The very first line on the report lists the following:
Ep-Q Alunite Au. / Au - Ag - Te.
Can understand the alunite, gold, silver, and tellurim symbols, but what is "Ep-Q"? The only thing I can come up with is "epithermal quartz", but don't think that is right.
Appreciate some input on this.
Roger
Not being very educated on mining/geology and unable to find anything on the internet, had one question on the ore analysis report you shared with us. The very first line on the report lists the following:
Ep-Q Alunite Au. / Au - Ag - Te.
Can understand the alunite, gold, silver, and tellurim symbols, but what is "Ep-Q"? The only thing I can come up with is "epithermal quartz", but don't think that is right.
Appreciate some input on this.
Roger
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Oroblanco,
You are assuming the report is an assay instead of an analysis. In a previous post it was stated the report is an analysis. The underground reserves and overall richness of the ore was not the focus of the analysis.
You are assuming a blacked out word is to prevent someone else from finding the mine.
In a previous post the reason for any blackout spaces was given. To prevent someone else from finding the mine, you would first have to assume the exact location of the mine is known to the persons who paid for the analysis.
You are assuming you know what is on pages 2 and 3. Had the report been an assay, you may have been correct.
Roger,
Yes, Ep-Q is a chemists abbreviation for Epithermal Quartz.
Epithermal quartz almost always forms while associated with hot water at shallow depths. Ground water seeps down and comes into contact with a magma intrusion and is superheated. The quartz and mineral elements form together in this environment. Epithermal quartz generally can form at some distance from the magma source and can form extremely rich ore deposits at a very shallow depth which often are either buried deeper, or exposed by subsequent erosion.
You are assuming the report is an assay instead of an analysis. In a previous post it was stated the report is an analysis. The underground reserves and overall richness of the ore was not the focus of the analysis.
You are assuming a blacked out word is to prevent someone else from finding the mine.
In a previous post the reason for any blackout spaces was given. To prevent someone else from finding the mine, you would first have to assume the exact location of the mine is known to the persons who paid for the analysis.
You are assuming you know what is on pages 2 and 3. Had the report been an assay, you may have been correct.
Roger,
Yes, Ep-Q is a chemists abbreviation for Epithermal Quartz.
Epithermal quartz almost always forms while associated with hot water at shallow depths. Ground water seeps down and comes into contact with a magma intrusion and is superheated. The quartz and mineral elements form together in this environment. Epithermal quartz generally can form at some distance from the magma source and can form extremely rich ore deposits at a very shallow depth which often are either buried deeper, or exposed by subsequent erosion.
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
It is also believed that Epithermal Quartz deposits almost always are associated with some form of a Caldera. The Quartz forms in the "bowl" left by the collapse of a Volcanic vent, which created the Caldera. Knowing the make-up of the Superstition range this is most likely the case with this ore also.Wasp wrote: Epithermal quartz almost always forms while associated with hot water at shallow depths.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
Since the document references the Tortilla Caldera, it would appear that whoever presented the ore for analysis, offered that caldera as the location the sample(s) came from. While still a huge area, it does narrow the search somewhat. I believe the caldera also includes at least one (known) hot spring.
Take care,
Joe
Since the document references the Tortilla Caldera, it would appear that whoever presented the ore for analysis, offered that caldera as the location the sample(s) came from. While still a huge area, it does narrow the search somewhat. I believe the caldera also includes at least one (known) hot spring.
Take care,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
I have two issues with this report, so far.
1. This analysis says the ore came from the Tortilla Caldera. How did they come to that conclusion? Most of the Superstitions have the same geology, all created the same way during the same geologic period. As some of the experts suggest, there are three calderas in the greater western Superstitions, if I remember correctly. But the calderas are so similar that (I believe) you can not pick one over another. Were the people who tested the ore so familiar with the Superstitions or have extra info that they could make such a conclusion? Was this conclusion really their job?
2. If the ore is Epithermal (Ep-Q - I will take your word for it because I do not know all these abreviations) why does the report later show the crystallization at 300c? This temperature is at the top of the Mesothermal range, far from being Epithermal. The ore is Mesothermal, as it has been documented many times and as I believe right now. If it is not, then all of us need to know for sure.
Jesse
1. This analysis says the ore came from the Tortilla Caldera. How did they come to that conclusion? Most of the Superstitions have the same geology, all created the same way during the same geologic period. As some of the experts suggest, there are three calderas in the greater western Superstitions, if I remember correctly. But the calderas are so similar that (I believe) you can not pick one over another. Were the people who tested the ore so familiar with the Superstitions or have extra info that they could make such a conclusion? Was this conclusion really their job?
2. If the ore is Epithermal (Ep-Q - I will take your word for it because I do not know all these abreviations) why does the report later show the crystallization at 300c? This temperature is at the top of the Mesothermal range, far from being Epithermal. The ore is Mesothermal, as it has been documented many times and as I believe right now. If it is not, then all of us need to know for sure.
Jesse
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Jesse J. Feldman,
If you read back through the post containing the report, you will see it is not represented as any specific mine, or claim to be the Lost Dutchman mine or making any other claim of locations said to be connected with the Lost Dutchman mine. It was an analysis done over 40 years ago of a private ore sample to try and determine the limits of that sample and if it was in any way similar to ore which is alleged to have come from Jacob Waltz, through Dick Holmes and into the possession of others who later purchased their own pieces of that ore. That ore, and the type of deposit it represents, could be matched with no other known mine of it's time.
Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. The context it was posted had to do only with the statements made on page 275 of Dr. Glover's book, The Golden Dream. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to read more into it, or interpret it as saying something else or assume things about it that it is not, I have no answers for you because you are turning the report into something it is not and I cannot comment on your ideas, beliefs and assumptions.
Yes, there is a lot more involved with that ore sample and it's background, but that doesn't change what I just stated above about the sample, the report or what it was intended to be or represent.
The crystalization on the report does not speak to the Ep-Q Alunite Au-Ag-Te part of the report. There is no known quartz, epithermal or mesothermal from anywhere in Arizona that has actually crystallized at 300 - 300.2 C. This temperature is higher than both epithermal or mesothermal quartz forms. Much higher than epithermal and while at the highest end of the mesothermal scale, still higher than any known mesothermal deposit within Arizona.
The reports reference to the Tortilla caldera also involves a lot more than what is found on page 1 of the report.
The Tortilla caldera is the youngest of 4 calderas within the Superstition mountain range. The Superstition caldera being the oldest, collapsed and the Tortilla caldera rose and fell taking over a third of the NE part of the older Superstition caldera with it, altering the geology of the older portion of the Superstition caldera and mixing it with the geology of the newer Tortilla caldera. The other two known calderas in the region, the Doggie Springs and the Black Mesa calderas do not appear to have significantly affected the geology of the Tortilla caldera.
No one is saying the report proves or disproves anything else or anyone else's beliefs or findings. Or makes any claim beyond what the report was intended to be. The report is not about where someone else believes the LDM to be or if someone else believes quartz is epithermal or mesothermal. It's not about that.
If you read back through the post containing the report, you will see it is not represented as any specific mine, or claim to be the Lost Dutchman mine or making any other claim of locations said to be connected with the Lost Dutchman mine. It was an analysis done over 40 years ago of a private ore sample to try and determine the limits of that sample and if it was in any way similar to ore which is alleged to have come from Jacob Waltz, through Dick Holmes and into the possession of others who later purchased their own pieces of that ore. That ore, and the type of deposit it represents, could be matched with no other known mine of it's time.
Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. The context it was posted had to do only with the statements made on page 275 of Dr. Glover's book, The Golden Dream. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to read more into it, or interpret it as saying something else or assume things about it that it is not, I have no answers for you because you are turning the report into something it is not and I cannot comment on your ideas, beliefs and assumptions.
Yes, there is a lot more involved with that ore sample and it's background, but that doesn't change what I just stated above about the sample, the report or what it was intended to be or represent.
The crystalization on the report does not speak to the Ep-Q Alunite Au-Ag-Te part of the report. There is no known quartz, epithermal or mesothermal from anywhere in Arizona that has actually crystallized at 300 - 300.2 C. This temperature is higher than both epithermal or mesothermal quartz forms. Much higher than epithermal and while at the highest end of the mesothermal scale, still higher than any known mesothermal deposit within Arizona.
The reports reference to the Tortilla caldera also involves a lot more than what is found on page 1 of the report.
The Tortilla caldera is the youngest of 4 calderas within the Superstition mountain range. The Superstition caldera being the oldest, collapsed and the Tortilla caldera rose and fell taking over a third of the NE part of the older Superstition caldera with it, altering the geology of the older portion of the Superstition caldera and mixing it with the geology of the newer Tortilla caldera. The other two known calderas in the region, the Doggie Springs and the Black Mesa calderas do not appear to have significantly affected the geology of the Tortilla caldera.
No one is saying the report proves or disproves anything else or anyone else's beliefs or findings. Or makes any claim beyond what the report was intended to be. The report is not about where someone else believes the LDM to be or if someone else believes quartz is epithermal or mesothermal. It's not about that.
The Tortilla Cauldron Complex
The picture below shows the Tortilla Caldera in a pink color on the upper right of the three circles on the map. Note that Tortilla Caldera is much younger than the Superstition Cauldron as Wasp noted in his posting. This should give some perspective of the areas involved.
Roger
Roger
- Map Showing Tortilla Caldera in the Superstitions
- Picture 2.png (89.74 KiB) Viewed 42668 times
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp wrote
However isn't this just a sort of "cover page" with generic descriptions of common gold ores? In this case, it was un-necessary to black out any mineral or descriptive term that might be seen as some kind of clue or indicator, since it is generic.
Oroblanco
My mistake. I beg to differ however as to the idea of preventing someone else from finding the mine by an indicator mineral, for one may have ore specimens from a mine one does not know the location of, and still not want anyone else to find it FIRST. If this is purported to be the Lost Dutchman, it would be safe to assume the person(s) having the analysis done did not know the precise location, noticed what they saw as an indicator mineral and wished that detail to be kept from public consumption.Oroblanco,
You are assuming the report is an assay instead of an analysis. In a previous post it was stated the report is an analysis. The underground reserves and overall richness of the ore was not the focus of the analysis.
You are assuming a blacked out word is to prevent someone else from finding the mine.
In a previous post the reason for any blackout spaces was given. To prevent someone else from finding the mine, you would first have to assume the exact location of the mine is known to the persons who paid for the analysis.
You are assuming you know what is on pages 2 and 3. Had the report been an assay, you may have been correct.
However isn't this just a sort of "cover page" with generic descriptions of common gold ores? In this case, it was un-necessary to black out any mineral or descriptive term that might be seen as some kind of clue or indicator, since it is generic.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Trail of Jacob Waltz’s Gold Ore
Wasp,
Thanks,
Garry
My understanding is that your report represents ore that the Holmes family retained. It seems a pretty straightforward assumption but I always get in trouble with my assumptions. Dr. Glover tested several different ores, Holmes, Goldfield, Vulture, Kochera, Camp, etc. Do you indeed mean that this report reresents ore from the Holmes family that was tested before 1969?You wrote:
“The following report is from an analysis done over 40 years ago on some of the exact same ore Dr. Glover EDS tested at the University of Nevada …………. The resulting analysis of the testing done over 40 years agoconcludes the ore tested can be matched to no other known ore deposit anywhere in Arizona.
The ore tested over 40 years ago was a sample of over 7 pounds including matrix and host rock.”
Thanks,
Garry