The Salazar Survey

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
cuzzinjack
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The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

For those of you not familiar, “The Salazar Survey” is an account by Clay Worst about attempts in 1949 to find the meaning of maps and photos brought to Arizona by Cristobal Peralta in 1924. Only the happenings in 1924 are discussed here. This story is in Dr. Glover’s book, “Treasure Tales of the Superstitions”, and many thanks from this author to Mr. Worst for writing it, and Dr. Glover for including it in his book. A pdf of the article (but the sketch that Dr. Glover includes is not here) can be found at:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... 0Worst.pdf

In summary, Cristobal (72 yrs. old) was from Spain, but was born and raised Mexico. He came to Tucson in 1924, and at the Alianza Hispano-American, contracted the services of Perfecto Salazar, a Spanish-speaking American and former resident of Florence, as an interpreter to help him find records in Pinal and Maricopa counties of rich mines in the Superstitions his family used to operate there. After days of research? Cristobal drove Salazar from Phoenix to the Superstition mountains to visit the area where the mines were located. They “pulled over” “several miles” north of Apache Junction on Roosevelt Road (later to become the Apache Trail and Highway 88). Cristobal then shared a story that described members of the Peralta family undertaking a clandestine expedition in the winter of 1853-54 to mine for gold one more time and hide the mines (once again). They used surveying equipment to survey the mine location and the area, and they took small photographs of the mine site from varying distances (including one from high ground near the mine) with “El Sombrero” in the background of all of them. Cristobal then showed Salazar 3 glass photos and a detailed map of the Superstitions area (and the location of the mine) that included 4 Peaks, the Salt River, and the area extending to the Gila River.
Later, Salazar wrote down on a brown paper bag some of what he saw on the map, and later apologized that he did not remember more.
These are important excerpts from the Clay Worst account:

“The map, Peralta explained, was a survey of the mine site. The bearings and distances were referenced to the salient pinnacle, El Sombrero. In particular, a line ran northward from the pinnacle, accompanied by the numbers 4 and 62. There was also a transverse line running between three red hills and a two-room cave. A notation indicated that the pinnacle was 14 kilometers south of the Rio Salado. The meridian of reference for the survey was determined by an observation of Polaris, the north star, on the night of April 13th, 1854. It was important Peralta asserted, that the survey be done on the exact day of the year, so that the stars would occupy the same positions in the heavens as they did in the heavens as they did at the time of the original survey”.

“The mines were then carefully closed and concealed, lest they fall into the hands of the “Yanquis” who have taken this area without any benefit of right”.

“Salazar was also allowed to view, briefly, the three photographic plates. They were darkened by age, and it was difficult to ascertain much more than the outline of the skyline, with little foreground remaining. All three photographs were of the salient pinnacle, El Sombrero. The first photograph, Peralta stated, had been taken from the summit of the first high mountain in the direction of the mine from the camp on the Rio Salado. The spot was indicated on the map by a small square symbol, and lay near a meandering trail between the camp and the mine site. The second photograph was taken from the summit of the second high mountain in the direction of the mine. The pinnacle was not visible along the route between the sites from which the two photographs had been made. The third photograph was taken from high ground above the mine site.”

These inferences were drawn from the article:
• An accurate map in 1853, aligned with true north, could have been created by using a baseline that was derived from the sun or Polaris. But, it does not matter what date or time the north star is shot with a transit if an ephemeris or an alternate method Clay described is used to get a baseline for the survey.
• To find a specific location in no-man’s land, a scaled map with reference to north is all that is needed if landmarks are marked on the map and they can be seen. Apparently, that is what Salazar got to look at. But if you do not have a map, or do not want to continually drag it out, the bearings to 2 known landmarks from the unknown location are needed. Where imaginary lines created by those bearings intersect is the referenced location. It is apparent that Cristobal had both of these methods to choose from.
• It is apparent by reading the article that there was anti-American sentiment displayed by Salazar in 1924 considering comments about “Yanquis”, and the Mexican American war. After some research, it is unlikely the Alianza Hispano-American organization he was a member of in 1924 flew the American flag in their lodges. Salazar surely did not want an American to find the mine.
• Salazar was picked because of his knowledge of the Superstitions area, his skill as an interpreter, and someone befitting a visiting dignitary. He appears to have been very intelligent.
• The photos had to have some value, or Cristobal would not have brought them. Weaver’s Needle looks like a sombrero only in a very narrow band extending to the northwest from the Needle. Salazar said El Sombrero was in the background of all of the photos. While driving north on Highway 88 from Apache Junction, the full El Sombrero can be seen for only one brief instant, and is not able to be seen again until reaching the Needle Overlook (and it looks like a sombrero there). It is proposed that the Needle Overlook is where Perfecto and Cristobal pulled off and stopped the car.
• It is thought the numbers 4 and 62 are the numerical portions of quadrant bearings from the mine to known landmarks. Lewis and Clark used quadrant bearings, and they were common even 50 years ago.

So, if 4 and 62 are references to quadrant bearings, where would they radiate from, and where would they pointing to?
Although it is cheating, If the partial bearings are referencing the hill “Cerro Negra” written about by the author extensively on this site, the full quadrant bearings would be:
S 62 E
N 4 E

These would be the bearings shot from Cerro Negra and are referencing El Sombrero and the tiny hole through the mountain that can be seen along First Water road just as the sun comes up (photo below).

http://mollymarieprospect.com/salazar/holeinmount.JPG

It was presumed that these bearings were based on magnetic north, because if someone was giving these bearings for in-house use, the bearing would be used with a compass without the complications of calculating declination (the angle between true north and magnetic north). Using Google Earth, these bearings seemed to be very close to what they would be if they were based on magnetic north if radiating from Cerro Negra.

To validate the bearings from 1853 and take actual bearings, a Brunton “pocket transit” (photo below) was taken to Cerro Negra.

Image

The Brunton was used with the declination set at 0. El Sombrero was shot with the Brunton at:

S 65 E

The bearing taken with the Brunton to the “tiny hole” through the top of the mountain to the north of Cerro Negra and was:

N 2 E

These do not match the S 62 E and N 4 E exactly, but the change in declination has to be taken into account. It is mystery though, what the magnetic declination was in 1853. NOAA data gives declination for 1853 for Cerro Negra at 13 degrees E, and for 2017, 10 degrees E. The declination on Cerro Negra was calculated by the author at 13 degrees 2 weeks ago using compass readings and Google Earth Pro bearings that are based off of true north. There is a large magnetic anomaly beneath Tortilla Flats, and this may be why there is a large discrepancy (photo below). In conclusion, there is actually no way of knowing what the exact declination was in 1853 directly north of the Superstitions.

Image

However, the bearings from 1853 and 2017 were plotted in the photo below.

Image

Even though the declinations are not known, the arcs swung between the landmarks in 1853 and 2017 are almost EXACTLY the same (off by one degree). This is damning evidence that the bearings from 1853 and 2017 reference the same landmarks.

The odds of these bearings matching by coincidence on a location that was picked beforehand (Cerro Negra) are infinitesimally small. These conclusions are drawn:

• Mr. Salazar seems to have developed a case of selective amnesia regarding what he saw on the map Cristobal showed him. Amnesia created by money, loyalty, sworn oath, or dislike of Americans because of the Mexican American War?
• It is highly likely that Cristobal Peralta walked to Cerro Negra and the mines. It is an easy 15 minute hike up a flat wash to Cerro Negra from where the end of the Needle Overlook sidewalk is today.
• This has been known to the writer for some time, and the compass bearings reinforce the issue: The mines are not in the wilderness area. They are not in exceedingly rough terrain. And, the orebodies are not primarily quartz.

These are re-creations of the photos that were taken in 1853:

Photo #1 from high above. There is a another mountain to the south that is precisely on the S 65 E bearing to El Sombrero, but this is close.

Image

Photo #2. This is Cerro Negra on the S 65 E bearing. It has the classic shape of a VMS orebody formed beneath basalt. There are no annotations needed for this photo.

Image

Photo #3. This is El Sombrero at S 65 E taken from Cerro Negra.

Image

The task of finding the Peralta or “Sombrero” mines has been the greatest challenge this author has ever undertaken, and it has been extremely exciting and fulfilling at well. Even though the location of the mines is known, there is still a lot left to learn. Amen.

If there is anyone out there that has a business proposition for Cerro Negra, I’m all ears. Please contact me at [email protected].

cuzzinjack

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

An idea was hatched to check into the declination subject a little further, on a local scale………

All 20 of the mining claims that are staked on the Molly Marie caldera have their sidelines laid out at N20W, and the end lines are laid out at N70E. These bearings are based off of true north and NAD27 coordinates, the same that is used for the Goldfield quadrangle map. Below is the diagram at the bottom of the quadrangle map showing grid north(Google), true north, and magnetic north in 1981 (the grid and true north should be the same today).

Image

A spreadsheet was used to calculate the NAD27 coordinates of all posts before they were staked. Below is an example:

Image

Since the posts were set accurately with a gps, the same brunton compass was used to check the magnetic bearing of the post lines at several locations shooting down the lines of posts when they were visible. The declination varied from 10 to 13 degrees depending on the position and distance from basalt and deep red porphyry (they are magnetic). Note: This should have been thought of by the author a long time ago.
In conclusion, the NOAA declination data is accurate on a regional scale. If the declination moved 3 degrees west between 1853 and 2017 as NOAA indicates, the bearings that Salazar partially described would exactly match the bearings shot recently from the top of Cerro Negra (the bearing of tiny hole would be off by only one degree) if they were adjusted 3 degrees west (counterclockwise).

But there is more…….

My solution to the Stone maps was shown on this site some time ago, and the following photo with an inset of the map stone was posted:

Image

The triangle in the inset as shown is not perfectly rotated to match the corresponding triangle drawn on the google map photo (off by one degree), so the whole exercise was redone with a program called paint.net. The program counts the degrees of rotation, and the Stone Map was rotated exactly 13 degrees, from a position with the bottom edge of the stone setting flat, to match the google map.

So, the angle of rotation of the Stone map matches the NOAA declination in 1853 (and 1847). The Stone Map was created exactly according to magnetic north in 1847. But, this gets even better.

The tiny hole through the mountain used for the Salazar solution is the same tiny hole that was used for the Stone map solution. This was obviously quite a landmark for the Peralta’s. This hole can be seen driving down First Water Road at daybreak, and at no other time. The Stone Map screams that the hole must be found on the north side of Superstition Mountain (but a tiny hole) to find the mines. This is a picture of the hole from First Water Road early in the AM.

Image

The Spanish and Mexican maps that have surfaced are all describing the same place: Cerro Negra.

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

The author would have never had a clue about quadrant bearings, and could not have solved the Salazar mystery if it wasn’t from previous experience. The author learned to survey with a transit, the old school way, in 1979 and 1980 in both surface and underground environments. Below is a picture of a transit similar to what we used back then (the ones we used were older, from the 1920’s).

Image

Below is a close up of the compass on the transit; it is a quadrant compass.

Image

Our calculations were done with quadrant bearings for backsights and foresights. All calculations were done with a hand calculator that had trigonometric functions. Later, the author’s first mining job was surveying underground with a Wild T1A theodolite, but all the calculations were still done with a hand calculator and all bearings were quadrant bearings. Trigonometry was key. Today, many surveyors do not know how to do trigonometry well, or at all, because the instrument does everything for you (especially gps).

In a brief window in time, old and new has come together to reveal the 1853 surveyed location of the crown jewel of the Peralta mines: Cerro Negra.

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by Oroblanco »

Very interesting thank you for sharing this, I hope you will continue.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: The Salazar Survey

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Hi Oroblanco,

It is very good to see your posts. I've been working on a post for the "Chichilticale" thread off and on; have learned some new things about where there were many pits indicated by seismic survey. There is one more test that must be performed to confirm or deny that there was mining activity for 150 years, and possibly for several centuries, on the north side of the Superstitions: a gravity survey. Sometime this winter, hopefully.

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Re: The Salazar Survey

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This thread “The Salazar Survey”, is regarding the most astounding evidence this author has found yet and gives the precise location of the bulk of the underground mines. Today, I went out to make the exact replication of photo No. 1 that Cristobal Peralta showed Perfecto Salazar. I had “winged it” above with a photo that I had taken high up on the cliff that is giant “heart” above Government Well. The photo below was taken at the proper S65E looking towards El Sombrero. This is looking over the top of highway 88. The photo shows the ridge that verifies this part of the story: “The first photograph, Peralta stated, had been taken from the summit of the first high mountain in the direction of the mine from the camp on the Rio Salado. The spot was indicated on the map by a small square symbol, and lay near a meandering trail between the camp and the mine site. The second photograph was taken from the summit of the second high mountain in the direction of the mine. The pinnacle was not visible along the route between the sites from which the two photographs had been made.”

Image

Okay, this is pretty cool, but the exact location of the mine was already known. This was done just to tie up a loose end.
What was shocking, at least to me anyway, that at EXACTLY 180 degrees from S65E, on the back-sight, which is N65W (see why they used quadrant coordinates!) , the below can be seen.

Image

This seems more like a movie than real life! The chance of this happening naturally seems impossible. I ran out of time today, but will get out there soon to see if this was carved or is a .........baby Stonehenge?

It can only be surmised that this was a guide to those that were cutting up from the Salt River: Just Look through the hole towards El Sombrero and the hill with the mine can be seen in the line of sight at what is now S65E. It also seems also that the Spanish and Mexicans would not have bothered with something like this; you know what that means?…………

The cleaned up version of this thread and the accompanying story “The Great Mine” can be found at:

www.mollymarieprospect.com

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

Hi
Ive tried clicking the link you provided but it leads me to a "this page can not be found" answer...could you provide another link please? it sounds interesting ,though i admit ,at this stage anyway, it doesnt give me much confidence in the conclusions.
kind regards
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Re: The Salazar Survey

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don,

Thank you for reporting the bad link. The website was made more secure, and did not realize some platforms do not automatically convert the “www” portion. Here is the new address and hope it works on this site (if not, just copy and paste in your browser):

https://mollymarieprospect.com/

I had not continued my story out of respect for Dr. Glover’s loss, and hope that he finds some comfort in knowing that there are many that feel like he does; there is a great overall sadness that far too many are passing that have worked so hard to solve the mystery.

I climbed up to the hole in the rock by myself late in the afternoon on Friday the 22nd, and that wasn’t the smartest thing I’ve ever done. The climb up there wasn’t simple, and there is only one convoluted route (not path) that must be followed. Here is a photo of the hole in the rock as I got close. Somebody had the huevos to put a stack of rocks on top of the spire on the right hand side; that is a crazy accomplishment.

Image

On the backside of the hole is a cliff far over 100 feet high (no exaggeration) about a dozen feet away, and a steep slope with many loose rocks between the hole and the cliff. The below photo was taken up close to the hole; I could not get back at all for a “framing shot” because of the cliff. I shouldn’t have taken the shot, it was much too risky.

Image

It was learned though while looking through the hole that Cerro Negra, Weavers Needle, and the hole do not line up perfectly; they are out of alignment by 5 or so degrees. The hole does look like it could have been manmade though, because there is much fresh, coarse, and loose rock on the backside that looks like it came from the hole.

This is a photo from the backside of the hole looking towards Saguaro Lake. I hiked down there many years ago and it is extremely rugged terrain.

Image

Although this experiment was not a success, it does not detract from the fact that the hill dubbed "Cerro Negra" renders the great mystery down to one place.

Please check out the “Great Mine” page in the below link that dovetails with this Salazar Survey thread. Quite a bit has been added recently.

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/the ... reat-mine/

Here is a good link also to the Salazar survey article by Clay Worst also, the other at the top of this thread does not work anymore.

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/wp- ... yworst.pdf

cuzzinjack

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

Cuzzin jack....thanks for posting the new link-it works fine...only had a quick peek so far,but seems at first glance pretty interesting...quite a bit of reading there to digest and understand..im gonna give it a try..once again thanks
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello don,

It has been a while since we've heard from you. What do think about the information on mollymarieprospect.com?

cuzzinjack

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

hi cuzzinjack
at first glance i found it extremely interesting..but not really a believer in anything thats connected,in any way, with the peralta stone maps "thing"/various other treasure maps or holes in rocks which point to lost mines etc. r has this cristabell peralta person been proved to have existed,and if so connected to any peralta mining families? or is it the case of having to take he /shes word for things?as for the geological issues ill readily admit im completely ignorant of such things lol. its certainly a fascinating story or point of view..but no im not convinced
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

im also a bit dubious about the glass photos part of the story..how many people in 1853 would have had access to such a device,according to wilkpedia
QUOTE/In 1839, John Herschel made the first glass negative, but his process was difficult to reproduce. Slovene Janez Puhar invented a process for making photographs on glass in 1841; it was recognized on June 17, 1852 in Paris by the Académie Nationale Agricole, Manufacturière et Commerciale.[34] In 1847, Nicephore Niépce's cousin, the chemist Niépce St. Victor, published his invention of a process for making glass plates with an albumen emulsion; the Langenheim brothers of Philadelphia and John Whipple and William Breed Jones of Boston also invented workable negative-on-glass processes in the mid-1840s.[35] UNQUOTE..id imagine these would have been rather rare in 1850's,not to mention prohibitively expensive,but i could be wrong....
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Re: The Salazar Survey

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don,

You inadvertently opened a door here, and that doesn’t happen very often.

A quote from https://www.khanacademy.org: “The wet collodion process was a photographic process used to produce a negative. It was invented by F. Scott Archer (1813–1857) in 1848 and published in 1851”. Also, in the same article: ”Wet-collodion-on-glass negatives were valued because the transparency of the glass produced a high resolution of detail in both the highlights and shadows of the resultant prints (see image below).”

Image

This is the same process used by Brady when he photographed the American Civil War battlefields.

Another quote from the Khan Academy: “That this complicated process was often used in remote places by 19th-century photographers is a testimony to their diligence and dedication to their craft. This process enabled photographers to produce negatives in the field that could be brought back to a studio to be printed more than once.”

So, Cristobal had the negatives with him! No wonder Salazar said they were darkened with age! That means that there were likely many paper photos made from them as well, especially since they went to all the trouble to get the glass negatives in the field.

This could be a big break for some researchers out there, as there may be photos of the 1853 expedition out there in a Monterrey, Mexico City or Spanish museum or elsewhere. They may even be on the web. Can you imagine the quantity of photo negatives that were taken and resultant paper photos that were made, and maybe of Bicknell’s shaft as well?

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

Cuzzin jack...... until 1880s photography was only for the very rich or for professional photographers or companies as far as im aware..it only changed when eastmans /kodak produced their camera that didnt need constant change of plates etc,and at a price most or many could afford.so going back to 1851 -29 years previous id doubt if any or many of the "hoi polloi" owned cameras...ok so this christobal person could i guess have hired a professional company to take photos ,but that would mean letting others into the "mine secret (s)" as well..(which would have defeated the object).alternatively i suppose he could have been very wealthy and bought such a camera and taught himself the art of developing photos,which i would imagine would have been no mean feat at that particular time,or as a much likelier state of affairs (to me anyway ) the photofaphic part of the story was added for effect..even if photographs were presented as stated in the story ..and only a cursory glance at them was allowed apparently..well im sure you see what im getting at.im not sure ive "opened any doors" by putting forward those opinions,and i apologise for being a bit cynical but the devil usually is in the detail...and if im being over picky here and that leads to other photographs being found by researchers and so on and so forth ,then my words here might have been worthwhile. but...bearing in mind if a plethora of highly detailed photos of this 1851 expedition suddenly are unearthed ..id be a bit suspicious to put it mildly....thanks for listening
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

following on from post from 5 mins ago lol..
Two common types of emulsion plates were the ambrotype and the tintype. Ambrotypes used a glass plate instead of the copper plate of the daguerreotypes. Tintypes used a tin plate. While these plates were much more sensitive to light, they had to be developed quickly. Photographers needed to have chemistry on hand and many traveled in wagons that doubled as a darkroom.
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Re: The Salazar Survey

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plus..why lug around glass negatives which were notoriously brittle ,easily scratchedor shattered and tended to curl up at edges and needed to be stored correctly in order to be preserved ,when a plain paper photograph would have sufficed?....
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Re: The Salazar Survey

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don,

It appears that you have some knowledge of the history of photography that wasn’t gained in the past couple of days!

You are right about all of these things in a general sense, and your points are well taken, but there was an elite group of photographers based in the U.S. around 1850 that were head and shoulders above all the rest. F. Scott Archer (the same guy that invented the wet, glass plate process) also devised a method where the camera and the dark room were combined. Several wet plate photographers built this. See below:

Image

Coincidentally, a member of this elite group of photographers was from Mexico City and named Antonio L. Cosmes de Cossio (Antonio L. Cosmes). He traveled to the U.S. in 1849 to learn about the latest American photographic techniques, and bought the latest American camera “back” for his studio in Mexico City in 1851. Cosmes was a champion of the wet plate process (ambrotype), and when he moved to Spain, Cosmes taught the photographers there the process. He was so good that he even became the official photographer of the Queen of Spain. His father was an officer in the Mexican revolution that overthrew Spain. In 1853 there was a great hatred for the U.S. in Mexico, and the entire southwestern U.S. was in chaos due the California gold rush (California had just been stolen from Mexico). It is suggested that Cosmes shared this hatred. This is a link where some info is written about Cosmes:

https://studylib.net/doc/8674683/the-az ... tographers

This is a link to an e-book that can be checked out for free about him. Some of his photos are there, but the book is in Spanish:

https://archive.org/details/antoniolcos ... nt/page/n1

This is a photo of Cosmes from the cover of the book:

Image

It is hard to believe, but there was one single person found that would have been selected by the Peraltas and could have pulled off the photography at the Peralta Mines in 1853……… Antonio Cosmes. He had the potential political inclination, and the skills that probably no one else in Mexico had at that time. He was a pioneer in photojournalism as well.

The Antonio Cosmes collection is in the Colección Castellano in the National Library of Spain. The chronological period of the Colección Castellano runs from 1853 to 1880.

If anyone sees a photo in there of a bunch of guys standing around a mine shaft that is from “location unknown”, you may want to post it here for all to see.

P.S. I don’t know why Cristobal brought the negatives; I was going to add “(not so bright)”, in my last post, but realized most of us have 20-20 hindsight.

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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

cuzzin jack
tks for links, so Antonio Cosmes went solo in 1849,after coming back from america and in 1852 moved to spain,so if the expedition was in 1851-53 then it seems he could possibly have fitted in the time frame..so it seems it was at least possible for the glass photos to have been taken at the time ,i was wrong thinking it was almost impossible..but i still feel it was unlikely...the reason the glass negative issue raised doubts with me was first because of the time frame,and second because i bought some victorian bric a brac at an auction a few years ago and amongst it were 7 glass negatives of the period-i wasnt even sure what they were (they were amongst various ornaments,documents and other stuff) 3 of the negatives were curled up almost like a medieval type scroll,the others were scratched and split..i only found out later the difficulties involved in preserving them.i just couldnt imagine 70 year old glass negatives being carried around the countryin the kind of conditions id expect, heat/humidity etc unless properly packed, and still being of much use after.....as i said before your research is quite fascinating and pretty interesting...the problems i have is the stuff weve just discussed re photos ,plus the fact that we have to trust this cristobels words/story...and that also theres a certain dependance as regards directions ,latitude /longitude on believing that the stone maps were anything other than a hoax...same goes for lining up features with half a dozen different treasure maps which obviously also need to be genuine..personally ,and of course its only my opinion ,but i doubt any of them are.having said that its possible to come to the right conclusion through dubious routes..i sincerely hope youve achieved or will achieve that.
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

don,

I found some excellent information on ambrotypes. The negative was converted into a positive by putting a dark backing behind it, and/or the negative could be transferred to paper if desired. Here is a diagram from the article of one method of how they assembled the picture back then so it would last.

Image

Here is a link to the article:

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/M ... 7575/22388

Thank you for reading some of my research. I’ve been at it for many years.

In a philosophical sense, the definition of hypothesis is a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.

However, with the pile of information out there, including “treasure maps”, the searcher has to make some assumption of truth, but if you make the wrong assumption you are screwed; you either waste your time “chasing a rabbit”, or you skip over something very important.

If the searcher has no knowledge of surveying, geology, underground mining, or science in general, the searcher’s assumption of truth (or untruth) becomes unreliable to a degree proportional to his/her lack of knowledge of these subjects.

If the searcher does not live near the “Supes” or is unable to access the area frequently, he/she is at an additional great disadvantage to assume truth or untruth or test an hypothesis, if one was made.

I would say the first half of my time was spent just building the rough hypothesis, and the second half was refining it. Gradually, the pile of information out there was tested against the hypothesis, even when it was rough.

My hypothesis for the location of the Peralta mines is based on geology, and do not believe this has been done before. So far, these are spot on when testing to the hypothesis:

• The Burbridge Map
• The Minas del Oro Map
• The Ortiz Map
• The Salazar Survey
• The Peralta Fish Map

The Peralta Stone maps were instrumental in beginning my research.

The heart of my hypothesis is here:

Image

cuzzinjack

don
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

cuzzin jack
QUOTE
If the searcher has no knowledge of surveying, geology, underground mining, or science in general, the searcher’s assumption of truth (or untruth) becomes unreliable to a degree proportional to his/her lack of knowledge of these subjects.

If the searcher does not live near the “Supes” or is unable to access the area frequently, he/she is at an additional great disadvantage to assume truth or untruth or test an hypothesis, if one was made.
UNQUOTE
what you wrote is undoubtedly true..ive no argument with that . but......
One could just as easily say that the "searcher" is at a great disadvantage regarding the truth or untruth of christabels tale, if he/she wasnt present and listened first hand to christobel peraltas story..like wise the existence /non existence of said glass negatives.
equally the searcher is at a great disadvantage if he/she wasnt present at the 1851-53 expedition to cover the mines ..if that indeed took place...
like wise if the authenticity of the stone maps and other treasure maps is doubtful ,then using them to corroroborate christobels story(which could be also considered questionable) seems maybe not pointless ,but rathetr like chasing ones own tail.
This story seems to be just another variation of a 101 other stories regarding lost treasures world wide ..any truth to it-who knows?
however if you have found a gold deposit purely through the use of geological methods ,then it doesnt really need the backing of a PARTICULAR story which may or may not be true..gold is there..or it isnt...
kind regards
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cuzzinjack
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

don,

I’m very glad that you’ve opened this rather philosophical conversation, because I recognize and respect the logic in your writings no matter how abrasive they are sometimes. Yours go far beyond “There’s gold in them thar hills!”

As all of us know, there is a pile of information out there, and most of it is lies written by liars. And in Jacob Waltz’s case, he was also a murderer. The lies are largely protected from cross examination, because the liars are long since dead. At what I believe was the beginning of the lost mining district story, even Marcos de Niza was an accomplished liar, and he was a catholic friar! Talk about a cold, complicated case!

At what was the start of my search, I ran across the Peralta Stone Maps as a neophyte, completely ignorant of the story and the controversy behind them. If I had known then what I know now, I probably would not have touched the subject with a “ten-foot pole.”

But because I was a neophyte, I unknowingly used the face value of what was on the Stone Maps as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth!

I calculated, not reasoned, that the in-your-face natural landmarks (you did not have to cross your eyes) were described on the maps with surveyed accuracy (having been an old-school surveyor). Then, it was reasoned that the huckster-type did not have the capacity to do this work of accuracy and art. I then staked all of the two ridges with barely a shred of geologic evidence. I decided I would figure that out later, but did not realize it would be that much later! The full story is at:

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/the ... ta-stones/

The staking of Cerro Negra happened in the opposite fashion. I unknowingly walked into the subsidence zone of “The Great Mine”, and saw the veins, veinlets, and alteration, and staked out the area on the basis of pure geologic evidence, figuring I would learn the rest of the story later. Holey, Moley, what a story it is:

https://mollymarieprospect.com/blog/the ... reat-mine/

Similar to the Peralta Stone maps, the numbers of 4 and 62 were taken from the Salazar Survey story without any assumption of their truth. Since my hypothesis was firming up, I picked Cerro Negra as the spot on this earth that the numbers were referencing based on the location of two natural landmarks. These landmarks are shared with the Peralta Stone Maps by COINCIDENCE. (I feel you are trying to gas-light me here). Note: You have to drive down First Water Road about 6 am in the summer to see the tiny hole, and it is made-for-Hollywood.

The chances of my “getting lucky” by picking a spot on the ground that matches the quadrant bearings as indicated on the Salazar Survey are infinitesimally small (as in 0).

The rest of the items that match Cerro Negra that are in my last post are below. They rose to the top of the pile because many respected individuals have felt that they were authentic. They were picked as maps to be tested without any further assumption of their truth. The latest, the Ortiz Map, is a doozy!

• The Burbridge Map
• The Minas del Oro Map
• The Ortiz Map
• The Peralta Fish Map

The searching by others to find all the physical evidence out there regarding the Peralta Mines was necessary, but researching the veracity (truth) of each and every thing is far too time-consuming for me and the solution would have never been found if this was done.

My method to find the underground mines was to pretty much ignore the written evidence out there except to build a big picture, in a general sense. I assumed that most of this evidence was written by dead liars, and they cannot be questioned. However, the short-list of maps and the Salazar Survey numbers (picked without the assumption truth) could be, and were questioned and cross-examined by matching them to physical, archeological, and geological spots on the ground. All of the five items match (and several more). The chances of this happening by coincidence is once again “0”.

Proving the gold deposit is another challenge (and this is why it is still there) because:

• All of the outcrops of the ore have been removed (where the pits were).
• The large amount of salt in the area has dissolved most of the surface gold and it was deposited below (supergene gold).
• The entire area has been “swept” for signs of copper and archeological evidence, and the sweep may still be ongoing. It was however, impossible to hide it all, (and I hid some) and recent heavy erosion has done great work.

Nearby Goldfield is a small sample of the type of bonanza gold that lies beneath Cerro Negra and the area where the filled-in pits were found. With a minimum of assaying done in the breccias and near Cerro Negra, four assays of .02 opt Au have been obtained. As an example, a .02 Au assay of a surface chip sample made the determination to drill the Yanacocha deposit, where the greatest producing gold mine in South America is now located.

We’ll see what happens next!

cuzzinjack

don
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

cuzzinjack
sorry if i seemed abrasive..no intention to be..but maybe sometimes i come across as being that..its the social media communication thing probabley..easy to misinterpret sometimes.
But no point in me giving anything other than my honest opinion...im sure you wouldnt want it any other way..ive never heard the term "gas lighting someone" before but the definition apparently is......... Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs.[1][2]
im not in any way trying to do any of those things and im surprised you think i am..or might be.but some of this,if im being honest,to me anyway ,resembles the guy who takes a passage out of the bible say,and treats it as an anagram and finds hidden meanings,even predictions for the future,or even possibly i suppose hidden clues to the dutchman mine if he wanted to..ok maybe that particular page of the bible WAS written with that purpose in mind...but the balance of probabilities and possibilities would suggest it most certainly wasnt...
im just wondering here ..i live not far from snowdonia mountains in wales u.k now if i applied the stone maps to snowdonia,using say elephant mountain as my focus ,im pretty sure i could interpret items/crosses/squiggles with the terrain..even numbers translated to degrees east west north or south etc and if by chance using that method i uncovered a hoard of anglo saxon coins bracelets etc..what exactly would that mean?plainly the stone maps wouldnt have led me there..a because the maps related to an area the other side of the world and b because they were a hoax maps anyway...so it would mean the key was in how i interpreted them......i.e wrongly and it would go to show how easy it is to make practically anything line up and corrorobate almost whatever you want it to....its why im somewhat confused about using peralta maps and 6 treasure maps which are almost certainly not genuine to reinforce the main theory..its kinda like trying to convince the publivc that the loch ness monster exists cos some guy in the pub says he feeds it every morning and cross referencing the guy in the pubs story to prove my point.
anyway i doubt ill convince you lol..and maybe youre right-i hope you are
kind regards
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cuzzinjack
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by cuzzinjack »

don,

I'm in a cabin on the Mogollon rim of Arizona, but they have WiFi, so here goes:

I'm simply trying to say that you and others have made the very risky assumption of truth on many occassions, and are unqualified to do so (you agreed, see above).

cuzzinjack

don
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

Cuzzin jack
THAT works BOTH ways surely?
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don
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Re: The Salazar Survey

Post by don »

and further more,you have admitted that you didnt have either the time or the inclination to check on the veracity of "each and every item"..yet use those very same "unchecked items" to "verify" the story ,which leads to the ultimate conclusion as regards the "veracity" of the christobal story.the author by the way, of which as far as im aware has never yet been proved to have been related to the peralta family of "lost peralta mine fame" .as for qualifications,one can hardly call oneself a "qualified researcher"(whatever that means exactly) if one doesnt check the veracity of clues they are using to promote their theory...its not just about whether gold exists on or in the location youve pinpointed,its whether that gold has any connection to ,or with, the peraltas ,jacob waltz, bicknell or any one of a cast of major or minor players in the dutchman saga ..i was going to comment on your "you and others have made the very risky assumption of truth on many occassions, and are unqualified to do so "...but i wont,other than to say that the condition that seems to afflict "you (me) and others" isnt confined to "me and others" alone..go in peace
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