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Post by ThomasG » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:00 pm

I regret not being at the Rendezvous this year. But as some know my wife had an accident a few days before the Rendezvous. I needed to be here, with her. Below is the talk I was scheduled to give Saturday night.


Good evening,

Before I start I like to make a toast, an old English toast from the Battle of Britain: TO ABSENT FRINDS.

It’s more poignant this year – so here is to you Tom K and to our other Absent Friends we lost this year.

Now to business. Tonight I want to talk about books and research. We all know that Dutchman books go from Bat *&%$ Crazy to serious books. Books like Jesse Feldman’s Jacob’s Trail with references and personal experiences, to Helen Corbin’s The Bible on the Lost Dutchman letting pioneers speak in their own voices, Tom K’s “A Ride Through Time”, and his other books and articles. And my own small contributions.

To my knowledge the first serious book was Barry Storm’s Thunder Gods Gold. Why? Because Barry was the first to include references – his Notes of Authenticity.

I want to start with something common to most serious books and others, The Massacre. You see all books are a work in progress – they reflect what’s known at a certain point in time. So what about the massacre?

We all know the story – Mexican miners in the Sups are driven out by Indians. They fight their way out making it to the western side of the Sups. But, they find more Apache who drive them up against the mountain and massacre them. Why this story you ask – well here’s the deal. It’s one of the oldest tales about the mts., gold and Mexicans is this story. Bark has it in his notes.

Oh, by the way, the Bark Notes were never written to be a family secret. Bark wrote them to get them published. Why? For money.

It was 1930 and near the height of the Great Depression. He sent the manuscripts to the Ely family on the east cost to see if they could help him get them published — I have the letters that were exchanged, they lay all this out. Any potential publishers demanded big changes. But, Bark refused.

We all know the story of Silverlock and Malm – to men who camped on the western slops of Superstition Mt. they dug holes, year after year, after year. Bark introduced himself to them as they were on his grazing range. Eventually one of them told Bark why they were digging – they had found gold on the ground, and they were looking for the vein.

Gold on the ground, where Silverlock and Malm were sounds like gold from the massacre. Right? – That’s what Bark thought.

Later it gets even better. Some of Bark’s cowboys find skeletal remains of a goodly number of men – and they find them not close, but not far from where Silverlock and Malm said they found the gold. Eventually, out of respect Bark’s cowboys bury the bones. Bingo – now we have gold and skeletons in close proximity.

Then comes the icing on the cake. The Company F account. To review a wee bit –.
The U, S. Army withdrew its troops from Arizona with the outbreak of the Civil War. The California Volunteers were formed to fill the vacuum left by the withdrawal of U. S. Troops. The Arizona Volunteers were formed to fill the gap between the U. S. Army’s return at the end of the Civil War, and the departure of the Calif. Volunteers.

The Volunteers were at least 90% to 95% non-Anglos. The bulk was either Native Americans, like Pimas or Mexicans recruited from both sides of the border. Co. F recruited almost entirely Mexicans – officers were whites. Cos. E and F were formed around Tucson and Tubac. Co. F never reached full muter, Co. E did reach full muster – which is important.

Cos. E and F were ordered to Ft. Whipple. On the march north to Ft. Whipple they encounter the Brichards party. The Britchards had been attached by Apaches, just a day or two before. The Apaches had stolen horses and mules. Well the trail is still fresh – and fighting Apaches was the priority of the Volunteers.

Lt. Hutton sent two scouts, Joe Green and William Edwards, to track the Apaches. The trail heads up through what is today Goldfield. Edwards and Green ride up to high ground on the slopes of Superstition Mt. to get a better view. There they find skeletal remains – one with a gold or silver tooth. Definitely not Apaches.

Now we have the story – which dates from Bark, plus Silverlock and Malm and the gold the found, the bones found by Bark’s Cowboys and bones found by Williams and Green. Gathering all this info has taken decades as new bits of info. were discovered or revealed.

Now, let’s go to the core of it – Waltz having gold, lots of it. For this we have the Transmitting Draft on Accountable Warrant, which Waltz used to send $7,000 to family in Missouri.

The story is Waltz had an older brother named Ignote Waltz living in Castroville, TX. Some of Ignote’s children or grand children moved to Missouri and those were the relatives Waltz was sending the money to.

Some question the draft because it has only Waltz’s name on it. So how could someone in Missouri cash it. The trouble is that we only have an image of one side of the draft. Maybe on the reverse Waltz signed the draft over to a relative in Mo.?

Castroville was a German speaking region – yes German, Believe it or not, in the early and mid1800s Texas was a magnet for German immigration. Castroville and the surrounding area are to this day called Little Alsace. Alsace is the German speaking part of France and it borders Württemberg. So far so good.

And here we are in luck. Castroville has a very active historical society. With their help I found out the following. Ignote was one of the few Germans who did not come from Alsace, or Württemberg or Switzerland. He had no brother named Waltz, and he was younger than Waltz.

How about Ignote’s children and grand children? Again the Castroville Historical Society came to the rescue. All of Ingot’s children and grand children remained and died in Texas.

Oh, and by the way, Ignote’s name is spelled in various ways in the Castroville records, such as Ignote and Ignatz.

Now we have a draft that is “curious”. Sent to Ignote Waltz’s children or grandchildren in MS, but there were none in MS. Ignote had no brother named Jacob and he was the wrong relative age, i.e., Ignote was younger than Waltz—not older.

So is the draft a fake? All I can say is that I have been able to find very little official information on how a Transmitting Draft was used. But, what little I have been able to discern from a single reference is that bankers to shift funds between banks used such drafts. They were apparently not used by or for a “civilian? They were a document used internally to credit or transfer funds between banks.

It has taken years to gather this info. All books are a snapshot of history at a given moment in time and as that information is known and understood.

However, the Transmitting Draft questions, the collapse of Jacob Waltz and a brother named Ignote in Castroville, TX , and the Waltz family in Missouri waggles one’s antenna. It get’s one thinking. Questioning.

What starts running around in the back of my mind are the Bark Notes and the massacre story. If Bark’s cowboys found remains of skeletons of several people why didn’t Bark include it in The Bark Notes. It’s a great add-on to the massacre story, and Bark was writing for publication. Why leave it out? It didn’t give anything away. It didn’t make sense.

Maybe Bark’s cowboys were holding out on him? It doesn’t seem likely though…but maybe. So I start digging deeper. What about the Edwards and Green story?

So I started looking into the Arizona Volunteers. The account of Cos. E and F being on a march to Ft. Whipple checks out. Captain Washburn was the ranking officer, and thus he was in charge of the march. This it turns out is important. Capt. Thus, both his Co. E and Hutton’s Co. F were under Captain Washburn’s command.

And here we are in luck. Washburn kept a daily record of the column’s march north. And that record has survived. It is at the AZ archives if one knows where to look. Now we know about where the Brichard incident reportedly happened, and with Washburn’s log we can check the days that the AZ. Volunteers would have encountered the Brichard party. There is no record of that encounter. Nada. Checking a wider range of dates still Nada. Now as ranking officer Washburn should have known what was happening – certainly as Co. E was leading the column they would have encountered Brichard first. But, no record, not a hint in Washburn’s daily record of the march—just accounts of the troops, their condition, the number of miles made in a given day, etc. Day after day. This certainly waggled my antenna.

So now one digs a little deeper. Also at the State Archives is a letter written by King Woolsey. The Territorial Governor wrote to Woolsey to come and scout for the Volunteers -- which would be Cos. E and F who are marching to Whipple.

Woolesy declined, but suggested a replacement – Joe Green. So the governor wrote to Green at Wickenburg. Yes Wickenburg. So how were Edwards and Green scouts for the Volunteers out of Tucson?

Tucson was the Volunteers departure point and Green was in Wickenburg – far to the northwest of Tucson. Wickenburg was a good 150 plus miles northwest of Tucson.

Green responded to the governor’s call and went to Fort Whipple, which is northeast of Wickenburg. Things just do not add up, they do not fit.

How could Edwards and Green discover the skeletal remains if Green wasn’t there.

At this point in time one has to say things for the Draft are not looking good,

Waltz and a brother Ignote in Castroville have collapsed.

With it the story of a branch of Ignote’s family being in MO. seems slim to none.

As for the massacre, that story in its broadest scope has certainly not collapsed. And that story is for another day.

But, the story of Edwards and Green and their joint discovery of the skeletal remains seem to have never happened. Gone with the Wind.

The remains found by Bark’s cowboys, also, seems very unlikely. For after all, that story would have only helped Bark in trying to get his manuscript published. And it had nothing to do with the mine or Waltz.

So this is why new books and new articles come out – that is the serious ones.


Thank you!

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Re: Rendezvous

Post by novice » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:47 am


Very interesting post. I'm still digesting it but I did have a question.

You wrote;

The account of Cos. E and F being on a march to Ft. Whipple checks out. Captain Washburn was the ranking officer, and thus he was in charge of the march. This it turns out is important. Capt. Thus, both his Co. E and Hutton’s Co. F were under Captain Washburn’s command.

Was Company E's comander? Washburn? I see Captain Washburn was commanding the march and I see Hutton was commanding Co. F, so was WAshburn pulling double duty or was there an unnamed commander of Co. E?


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Re: Rendezvous

Post by ThomasG » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 pm


I was never in the military. So I cannot speak from experience. My understanding from people who were in the military is the ranking officer on a joint operation or endeavor was the person in command – unless there were orders to the alternative.

If I get a chance next week when I am in Phoenix I will check Washburn’s notes again to see if there is any info. that would settle the issue. But, it is a flying visit and I may not have time. In the mean time I’ll check Lonnie Underhill’s book, and a manuscript of his I have.

As I recall Co. E was the lead company. If so they would have been the first to encounter the Brichards. Interestingly I have not been able to find any record of the raid on the Brichards. I would expect something in the Arizona Volunteers records -- but, maybe that record didn't survive? I would have thought it would be in Washburn's notes, but I have not found it. I would have thought it might well have been in the Prescott newspaper -- but, so far nada. I thought Brichard would have or might have filed an Indian Depredation Claim -- but to date I haven't found one. (The spelling I use, i.e., Brichard, is from memory.)

The very interesting item to me is that Green was in Wickenburg. I am going to check a bit more closely on Green in Wickenburg when I get a chance.

The whole Brichard story leaves me wondering ....


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Re: Rendezvous

Post by Deducer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:49 am


Thanks for sharing. A lot of interesting tidbits, especially your judgment that the Bark notes were not intended to be kept a secret. What do you make of the supposed notion that Bark withheld some valuable information/clues out of respect to the Spangler family?

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Re: Rendezvous

Post by ThomasG » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:13 pm

I cannot say. That has always been a question. But I have questions. Bark wrote a small document that contained what he considered his best info. It was passed to the Ely family, and I inherited it -- so to speak. I am greatly underwhelmed by its contents. There are things the Spangler famly looked for that they considered significant -- but the one thing John Spangler looked for is not in Bark's private document.


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Re: Rendezvous

Post by Deducer » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:30 am

That is very interesting. Again, thank you.

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Re: Rendezvous

Post by zentull » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:08 am

Very interesting, Thank you Thomas. I don't peek in as much as I should. Everything is always perceived as having layers like an onion. I have always believed the Lost Dutchman stories and lore are more like a piece of furniture that has been modified, sanded and painted so many times that no one thinks twice of adding more to the layers. Its modified and glued and been refinished so many times, it takes a lot of work to find the truth under it all. Recently I started to sand down my first guitar I was given on Christmas in 1977. I thought it was awesome, a sunburst Les Paul replica that made me feel like anything was possible. Over the years it was sanded and repainted, modified and finally dismantled and relegated to a shelf in the garage forgotten for years. I recently decided to restore it to its original glory out of respect for the path it set me on. As I worked through the process, I told my Dad about the project and he was surprised I still had it." You still have that piece of junk?" Turns out it was a cheap no name brand second hand guitar he bought from a friend and passed on to me unwilling to commit more than a few dollars to my musical pursuits. I almost decided to just dump the thing, but found it fitting that I finish the restoration out of something more than just nostalgia. There is a story there and a journey and in the end I got the truth. It wasn't what I expected or had believed for well over 40 years, but it did somehow get me going in the right direction in the end.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"

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Re: Rendezvous

Post by ThomasG » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:22 am


I agree.

One of the facets of the legend is the massacre story and Mexican mining culminating in Silverlock and Malm. I am not saying such a thing didn’t happen. It seems fairly certain that something similar likely happened. The massacre story has become a staple of the legend. Yet, there is a curious facet to this tale.

The earliest full account of the legend is Bicknell’s 1895 article. Yet, if I recall correctly there is no mention of the massacre. If my memory is correct about the absence of the massacre story it is most curious. In 1895 the country was in the worst depression in U. S. history. The depression was caused by back–to--back panics of the mid-1890s. It was only surpassed some 30 plus years later by the Great Depression of the 1930s.

Bicknell was likely freelancing in the mid-1890s. If so he would have been paid by the column inch. Thus, it would seem strange to leave out a story as good as the massacre story. Leaving it out cost him money. That is if the original legend had a massacre story?

Yet, the massacre story has now been blended into the original Dutchman legend. It is now wedded to the legend as part of the “history” of the mine.

IMHO the popular story we have today is an amalgam of various accounts. One of which is the Jacobs and Ludi story.

A curious thing about the Dutchman is how many times it has been found. It has been found in at least five counties. And in most counties it has been found in more than one location. And many of these finds have yielded good gold. Some have had very good gold.


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Re: Rendezvous

Post by ThomasG » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:15 am


I have rechecked Bicknell’s 1895 article, “One of Arizona’s El Dorados” (San Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 13, 1895). I still find no reference to a massacre.

However, I did find a very interesting paragraph. It is the seventh paragraph and, reads:

“During the past year all the old stories have been revived and a new impetus has been given to the search, which has been conducted sporadically ever since the settlement of the Territory, by reason by reason of the deathbed disclosures of an old German, who, in has last hours, confided to the woman nursing him how he and a partner worked that very mine in 1863, until the later was killed by Apaches.”

Somehow I had missed the importance of this paragraph. What is so important is that in 1863 Waltz was in the Bradshaw Mountains in Yavapii County. The mine was the Gross Lode. The original claim was composed of six claims. The claimants were William Gross, Antoine Fischer, Jacob Waltz, John Slack and Gideon Brook.

Gross was the discoverer, thus he got two claims—the discovery claim and a preemption claim. Everyone else got a preemption claim. The claim was laid out as follows.

Brook – Slack – Waltz – Gross discover claim – Fisher – Gross

The Gross Lode claim was filled in 1863. Waltz remained in the Bradshaws until at least 1868. Best estimate, however, is he was in Yavapaii county for the first half of 1869.

Now, comes the interesting part. Gross sold his two claims just a couple of months after filing the claim. The reason was likely due to the horrendous Indian attacks on and in the Turkey Creek Mining District — which was where the Gross Lode was located. Gross sold his discovery claim to a Jacob Weiss. Thus, Waltz’s claim abutted Weiss’ claim.

Weiss died in late August of 1867, during a resurgence of massed Indian attacks. The Indian attacks essentially devastated the Turkey Creek mining district. Turkey Creek would not become peaceful for years. Descriptions of the Gross Lode are of a tunnel and a shaft. The way I read it is that the tunnel and shaft were on the same claim or in closely proximity.

Thus, when Bicknell reports: “[Waltz] confided to the woman nursing him how he and a partner worked that very mine in 1863, until the later was killed by Apaches.” It seems to be “solid” evidence that Waltz was refereeing to his days in the Bradshaw and the Gross Lode. I am not saying that was the only thing Waltz was relating. The evidence we have is that Waltz was, at best, mixing his Bradshaw days into his story. At worst, Waltz’s information was mostly reminiscences of his Bradshaw days and his three mines there. Keeping in mind that two of Waltz’s Bradshaw mines, the Gross Lode and the Big Rebel, were, at a minimum, rich mines.

A final note, Waltz’s claim did abut another claim, that of Slack. Slack, however, was the carpenter for the Walnut Grove Mining Company. It seems that Slack spent his time mostly at Bueno, the company town (max. 5 or 6 buildings).

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Re: Rendezvous

Post by Potbelly Jim » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:41 pm

Hi Thomas,

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Being much more interested in the Bradshaws than I ever was in the Supes, it has always seemed to me that the Dutchman legend describes the events along Turkey Creek (and lower down in Black Canyon) in the early years of 1863/1864.

Literally everything in the legend actually happened in the Bradshaws. Jacob Waltz and Weiss had a mine there(Gross Lode). Indians made it impossible to make any progress. In 1868, the Miner reported that the Gross Lode shaft of JB Slack had been sunk to ten feet (only ten feet?), and Indians were still making it impossible to mine at that late date. So Waltz and Weiss had a mine with a rich surface outcrop that the Indians made it too hot to get anything done. Weiss died before anything could be done with it.

And, as we know, the Peraltas had a mine on lower Turkey Creek, or Black Canyon Creek, and they too were driven off by Indians. Not quite a massacre, but the similarities are just too much.

I've always been suspicious that the Thomas/Petrasch version of the legend was "lifted" from actual events in the Bradshaws. The 1863 date in Bick's article was not the only correlation BTW :)

Go back and take a close look at McCarthy's letter to the editor in response to Brownie Holmes' interview when Ruth was missing...take a real close look at who his source for the story was...and the date he says the LDM was discovered...then ask yourself when William Gross was trying to get from the Bill Williams down to Tucson, and he stumbled upon what would later become the Gross Lode (in a saddle when he came of out of Turkey Creek onto what would one day become known as Battle Flat). :wink:

IMO, the Julia Thomas/Riney Petrasch LDM legend as told to Bick, Bark, and McCarthy is just a cover story...made up from actual stories of Jacob Waltz...told to inquisitive reporters, businessmen, and ranchers when pressed for what they knew about Waltz's mine...and whatever they were ACTUALLY looking for in the Supes might have been something entirely different.

Take care, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: Rendezvous

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:09 pm

Just made reservations for a motorhome and will be coming to this years Rendezvous. My Son In Law, Scott, will be coming with me. Carolyn will not be coming. Hope to set up in my usual spot. If someone can bring the shade I donated to the event, we can attach it to the motorhome's canopy. If there is something I can bring to help out, just let me know. I will bring a book from my library to donate for the drawing.

Look forward to seeing many of you there.

Joe Ribaudo

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