Chichilticale

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cuzzinjack
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Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:57 pm

Even though the discovery of the location of the Peralta mines is very significant, there is a much bigger mystery:

After Spain looted most of the Aztec and Inca gold between 1520 and 1533, it was noted that the Aztec items were found to have a very high purity and were exceptionally beautiful. Some of the Spaniards realized the importance of this because neither the Aztecs or the Incas knew how to part gold and silver, which are typically found together in varying degrees. The high purity of the gold, some knew, was a clue to the source of the magnificent and plentiful Aztec gold, which was never found. Below is a photo of Aztec vs. Inca gold:

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The Spanish had heard plenty of stories after conquering Mexico to know that the source of the gold was north of New Spain, and Cabeza de Vaca’s story in 1536 of his 8-year journey from Florida and the tale he had heard of the “Seven cities of Cibola” located far to the north of New Spain pushed the Spaniards lust for gold to the limit.

In 1539, Viceroy Mendoza of Mexico City enlisted Father Marcos de Niza to explore the western coast of Mexico to ensure that Mexico was not an island, and to investigate the possibility of the existence of wealthy cities to the north.

Esteban, whom was with Cabeza de Vaca on the 8-year journey from Florida, accompanied Niza on this expedition. Father Niza had “rock star” status among the native people at the beginning of the trek in northern Sinaloa and Southern Sonora because he joyfully brought news that the brutal slave trader Guzman was banished by Viceroy Mendoza. Dozens, and perhaps hundreds of natives accompanied the Niza group as bearers to show their admiration.

Niza’s account of the expedition was less than stellar. Below is a modern-day piecing together of the places that that Niza/Esteban passed through on the way to Cibola as ciphered by Nallino:

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Source: http://nallino.net/marc.html

The Niza party spent little time investigating the coast after they saw it turn west on the northern end of the Gulf of California (Nallino thinks that he did not go to the coast at all), and travelled to the site of the current city of Nogales and turned to follow the north-flowing Santa Cruz River. It was here at Nogales that Esteban and Niza parted, and Esteban began his race to be the first to discover Cibola, with Niza following days and eventually even more than a week behind.

The trails along the Santa Cruz river and San Pedro (parallels the Santa Cruz) that stretched to Cibola were major trade routes well known to the local natives and beyond. As one writer put it, “Niza was not hacking it through the bush”. Niza reported occupied farming villages along the Santa Cruz about every mile.

The next site that Niza reports is Chichilticale, at the Casa Grande ruins (see above Nallino map). Other authors in the past have also concluded that Chichilticale was Casa Grande. This is Nahuatl (Aztec) meaning “red house”. The next spot he reports on his journey is Cibola only 15 days later; this is 275 miles away as the crow flies. This amounts to a serious traveling speed, about 20 miles per day. This is believable considering the other dates, but herein is the problem….. Niza, a man of God, never saw Cibola………… even though he said he did. Niza reports that he saw Cibola from a distance and it was as big as Mexico City. He said they turned back when he met the fleeing Indians that had accompanied Esteban because they described how he was killed by the Zunis.

The next year 1540, Niza becomes the guide for the Coronado expedition, about 1300 people. They travelled up the San Pedro, making a hard right near present day Tombstone. Then to Chichilticale #2 at the Kuykendall ruins at western foot of the Chiricahua Mountains and over present-day Apache Pass. It is amazing how the stage was already set in 1540 for what was to come in 400 years later! (See map below for routes of the Niza and Coronado expeditions and map of location of Chichilticale #2).

Image

Source: http://nallino.net/marc.html

This is a closeup of the Chichilticale #2 area:

Image

Coronado expressed his disappointment when seeing the Kuykendall ruins, thinking they were Chichilticale (Note: Niza had guided him there). They were very small ruins. As Nallino wrote (paraphrasing); Chichilticale must have been a well-known place, before either the Niza or Coronado expeditions. And how did it get an Aztec name?, and why was Coronado disappointed? It is important that this was the only place described on the Niza or Coronado expedition that had an Aztec name.

It was proven by an archeological dig that Coronado did indeed camp at the Kuykendall ruins with the artifacts representing what a large party would have left behind. Two of the most important items found were an iron crossbow bolt-arrowhead and a coin of that time period.

Nallino makes a good argument that there were two Chichilticale: the one that Niza puts in his report of his original expedition with the location described almost as a riddle (Casa Grande), and the second one at the Kuykendall ruins south of Wilcox that he passed by on his trip back to Mexico. After reading the information available, it appears that Niza travelled north on the Santa Cruz River, and travelled south along the north flowing but more eastern San Pedro on his return trip (so he knew where to take Coronado the next year).

When the Coronado expedition reached Cibola and its insignificance was learned, Niza became a most-hated individual and possibly the only thing that saved his life was that he was a Catholic Priest. Niza was then replaced by Father Pedro de Castaneda and he wrote that by the time Esteban reached Cibola Niza had not yet left Chichilicale, http://www.southwestcrossroads.org/record.php?num=385
and, Castaneda wrote that Niza was 60 leagues (180 miles) from Cibola when he met the fleeing natives that accompanied Esteban and that was the closest that he got to Cibola.

Niza was a respected and honored man up until Cibola was reached by the Coronado expedition. The Coronado expedition was privately funded, and some members never recovered from the debt they assumed to go on the expedition. Niza spent the rest of his life in supposed shame.
The larger question is: Why did Niza lie? He had a good reason to turn back before he reached Cibola, and no one could have blamed him for returning. Why did he concoct the tale that the Zuni pueblo was as large as Mexico City?

My theory is this: The Goldfield Arizona mining district was the source of the Aztec Gold. These are my reasons and sub-theories:

1) Gold from the supergene enrichment of gold-bearing sulphide ore deposits commonly has a purity of over 90%. The rare coincidence of brine lakes that covered the Goldfield District during and after the sulphide ore was deposited was ideal for the creation of gold chloride and the deposition of supergene gold. This type of gold was found in the modern-day Goldfield in large amounts. The pits where it was mined before 1520 were simply filled in.
2) Modern-day explorationists did not give these pit locations the time of day because the gold bearing outcrops had been removed (but the alteration zones remained).
3) Several pit locations have been found seismically, although it is not known what century the pits were from.
4) Niza had seen the horrors of the Spanish occupation and the thousands of Indians that died in slavery. He knew that the discovery of the gold deposits would result in more slavery and death. He knew that the peaceful native people he met along the Santa Cruz (Pima), would be no more.
5) It is theorized that Niza lied about the location of Chichilticale to save the Pima and others and tried to keep the Coronado expedition as far away from Superstition mountain as possible (because of its odd and possibly renowned shape). It can only be speculated what tales and clues circulated at that time, and “Chichilticale” seems to have been one of them.
6) Superstition Mountain (with the Goldfield District is at its foot) can be seen from Casa Grande ruins.
7) Niza had a week or more that was unaccounted for (the 60 leagues). It is theorized Niza went on an extended exploration and mapping trip at the Goldfield District.
8) Niza was a Franciscan, not a Jesuit. If he had been a Jesuit, there may have been an entirely different outcome. Niza may even have showed his superiors what was found, and the consensus may have been to divert attention away from the area.
9) In 1691, Father Kino, a Jesuit, recorded his first trip into Arizona. He reports visiting the Casa Grande ruins in 1694. It is theorized that because he had befriended and helped the Pima, they told him of the place where the Pima-hated Apaches had mined the gold a 150 years before. Below is a 1701 Kino map. The area held by the Apache is shown north of the Gila River. Superstition Mountain can be seen.

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10) Kino, being a Jesuit businessman, took a different tack. Rather than say anything to the Spanish government, he cut a deal with the Peralta’s. They would mine it, play it down, and give the Jesuits their cut.
11) The Apaches were never enslaved. The Peralta’s paid them off handsomely. In the end, when it was known the Peraltas were never coming back, they were slaughtered and their goods were taken.
12) It is theorized that the Goldfield District was mined well before the Spanish invasion of Mexico. At the Casa Grande museum, a “rock crusher” is on display. The Hohokam didn’t mine, but the theory is presented that the below item was taken from the nearby mines. The line across the item is a shadow. Seen up close, this item is believed to be technology that was not known to the Hohokam. It weighs an estimated 30 pounds, and would be for crushing ore, not pottery.

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13) An xrf (x-ray fluorescence) test (handheld unit) could easily prove or disprove if the my theory is true. Even though there are only a couple of handfuls of Aztec gold that remain in its original state, it does exist. An xrf of Aztec gold probably exists already.

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:06 pm

Dovetailing with the Chichilticale story is the Manuel Alejandro Peralta map from 1753.

Using the same map style of the Peralta-Fish and the Peralta Stone Maps, the map brings the outlier features in close to the central focus area of the map. A copy of the map with someone’s English translation is below:

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The most important link to the Chichilticale story that is presented in the map is the “footprint trail” that is labeled. Why would it state specifically that the trail was made by feet? Maybe because the natives that had made it had no horses, or wheels? The Mesoamerican trail system extended up the Santa Cruz to Chichilticale #1, up the San Pedro river, up the Gila and up to Cibola. The idea is presented here that the trail system extended from Chichilticale #1 to what is now known as the Goldfield mining district and that portions of the trail were still visible in 1753. It is theorized that Father Niza’a party hid or destroyed a part of this very-travelled trail.

Across the top of the map is the title “Gvente de Ona del Rio Salado Del Norte”. The first word is “Gvente”, an older form of a Spanish/Portuguese word that is still used in Brazil and means “esteemed people”. The third word is “Ona”, and is Latin for “district”. The rest is Spanish. The full translation would be “Esteemed People of the Salt River District of the North.”

Campo Trabajoros and Campo Trabajores are Spanish for the “men’s workers camp” and the “women’s workers camp”, respectively. Considering the separation of the men and women, the Pima revolt that swept Arizona in 1751, and the date on the map of 1753, it is apparent the Peralta’s kept mining through the Pima revolt because they were not using slaves?

In regards to the outlying features that are brought in close to the central theme of the map, the mines, it appears that it was important for Manuel Alejandro Peralta to show the year-round sources of water for the mines and workers. Campo Trabajores is Government Well, Campo Trabajoros is First Water Ranch in First Water Canyon, and the Ojo Aguila or “Eagle Spring” is Hackberry Spring. Below is a photo of the hole in the rock above Hackberry Spring taken from the middle of the oasis:

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After re-evaluating some features in the field, is it thought that the mines shown on the Manuel Alejandro Peralta map were are mixture of pits and underground mines; the underground mines are labeled with the names of the people that were in charge of developing them.

cuzzinjack

klondike
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by klondike » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:19 pm

Hello cuzzinjack

A fascinating post. If your theory is correct and it is, how did the Aztecs find the deposits? Were they in fact led to the area by artifacts they were given?

I wonder where one might look to find proof of their mining operations? Where exactly did they stay? Imagine their mining activities included contact points between two Caldera complexes in the Superstitions, and their enclave was located in a underground network close by.

If this is so perhaps Coronado was led to the same general area by artifacts in the possession of the Catholic Church. You might find it interesting to look into the naming of Coronado Mesa. If memory serves me it was named by a gentleman employed by the railroad during the period associated with Jacob Walzer, Jim Bark, and Sims Ely.

Your comments regrading the deposition of the deposits suggests you are talking about the Tertiary period although such deposits are widespread in pre-cambrian environments also. I am thinking here in terms of the reef deposits of South Africa but maybe not who knows.

Just a final point. You stated:

"Even though the discovery of the location of the Peralta mines is very significant, there is a much bigger mystery". Very, Very true.

thanks for posting. A great read.

klondike

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:29 pm

Hello Klondike,

Thank you for your interest and the kind words.

There is little doubt (with me anyway) that Niza knew exactly where he was going before he left Mexico City. As soon as he was shed of Esteban, he got down to business. He found the ancient trail north of the Gila, the mines probably mostly filled in, and his people concealed more with the time they had.

After he met Esteban’s party fleeing south on the most direct route to Mexico City, he also turned south with them to meet the San Pedro River. He was able to find or was told of Chichilticale #2 which is near the Chiricahua Mountains (see above map). Although not the Superstition Mountains, they are very rugged as the tale would have been told, and can be seen from Chichilticale #2. Fr. Niza’s plan to conceal was complete.

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The following year, Niza guided the Coronado expedition to Chichilticale #2. As can be seen in the map above only one day was spent at the other campsites, but 3 days were spent at Chichilticale. 1300 people are not going to stop for one or a few persons having illness or injury. There had to be a special reason to stop for that long that most or all of the party would agree to. Chichilticale. Fr. Niza’s plan had worked.
I believe the Aztecs were the original discoverers of the mines; their advanced civilization could afford to have people studying rocks and geology. The Apaches may have mined them. The northwest end of Superstition mountains was ripe for exploration. Below is a photo of the mineral potential of the Superstitions and surrounding area that was completed by the US Bureau of Mines and the US Geological Survey in 1993. The red areas have high mineral potential. Please note that the northwest end of the mountains has the same potential as Superior/Resolution.

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On the east side of the high mineral potential area, there is a collapse caldera over one mile in diameter. There are some large areas on its perimeter that appear to have been disturbed (pits that have been filled back in). A refraction seismograph was rented twice to test several of them. The results were very positive for 6 different locations.

There are 3 of the results found below. 5000 was the big Kahuna; the entire hillside has been disturbed, and its perimeter is intensely silicified. 2000 turned out very well also. 3000 doesn’t look as good, but the subterranean structures shown are actually rock outcrops on the surface, so the pit is much more pronounced than the tomogram shows.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/2000.pdf
http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/3000.pdf
http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/5000.pdf

Below is a photo with the lines above labeled. Each of the geophone lines shown revealed a pit. Some lines did not and are not shown.

Image

My theory is that there were many outcrops when the Goldfield district was discovered by the Aztecs or others, and all of the mines in the Aztec era were open pits. The ore would have been tertiary late-stage high sulphidation ore as found on the Old Wasp claim in 1983 by the highway. As described by John Wilburn:

“The ore shoot was eight feet wide and 50 feet in length. On the east footwall free gold occurred with galena, anglesite, malachite, chrysocolla, hematite, in an extremely heavy ore 12 inches wide that assayed 244 ounces per ton gold and 56 ounces per ton silver.”

I spoke with Mr. Wilburn about this and he said they struck it with a backhoe. 1 million dollars was removed at 1983 prices.

It is believed that the mining progressed from Goldfield to the east portion of the high potential area shown on the USGS/USBM map, and in the final stages of the Peralta era mining was all underground and beneath basalt.

By the time the Anglos came, all of the late stage sulphide outcrops were gone, some being much, much larger than that found at the Old Wasp.

cuzzinjack

Somehiker
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by Somehiker » Sat May 06, 2017 5:00 pm

Some interesting ideas there, Jack.
I see surface and shallow pit mining of gold deposits by native people more or less local to the area as a distinct possibility, though not by the Aztec themselves. It is more likely IMO, that the gold was collected for trade purposes and exchanged for more desirable goods from way down south, ie: copper tinklers, Macaw feathers and cacao beans carried northward via the trade networks. Bartered from trader to trader, gold from the Goldfield/Superstitions area may have thus found it's way into the royal coffers of Tenochtitlan.
There is at least one ruin out there, a "cliff house' likely Salado in origin, which had a layer of red clay applied to it's outer walls. (Chichilticale)
The inner wall, which still shows human fingerprints, is plastered in a white clay. Here's a shot of a part if the outer wall, showing the red clay layer, although the bright sunshine does not allow one to see how dark the red really is in the photo.....
020 red plaster sm.jpg
In regards to the "crusher" rock, I have been to Casa Grande, and my suspicion is that it was used as a temporary means of diverting irrigation water to and from furrows in the fields.

Regards:SH.

Somehiker
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by Somehiker » Sat May 06, 2017 5:09 pm

Somehiker wrote:Some interesting ideas there, Jack.
I see surface and shallow pit mining of gold deposits by native people more or less local to the area as a distinct possibility, though not by the Aztec themselves. It is more likely IMO, that the gold was collected for trade purposes and exchanged for more desirable goods from way down south, ie: copper tinklers, Macaw feathers and cacao beans carried northward via the trade networks. Bartered from trader to trader, gold from the Goldfield/Superstitions area may have thus found it's way into the royal coffers of Tenochtitlan.
There is at least one ruin out there, a "cliff house' likely Salado in origin, which had a thin layer of red clay applied to it's outer walls. (Chichilticale)
The inner wall, which still shows human fingerprints, is plastered in a much thicker layer of white clay. Here's a shot of a part if the outer wall, showing the red clay layer, although the bright sunshine does not allow one to see how dark the red really is in the photo.....

020 red plaster sm.jpg

In regards to the "crusher" rock, I have been to Casa Grande, and my suspicion is that it was used as a temporary means of diverting irrigation water to and from furrows in the fields.

Regards:SH.

klondike
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by klondike » Sun May 07, 2017 11:17 am

Hello Cuzzinjack,

The geology of the Superstition Mountains definitely suggests significant mining efforts were on going at a much earlier time than folks suspect. The numerous caldera complexes in the area, both known and unknown and their various contact points provide opportunity for near surface massive sulfide deposits of precious metals. In addition zones in fractures, faults, and shear zones.

What is generally not recognized but identified in your efforts is that the absent of what were certainly widespread and rich deposits meant they were worked from the area of oxidization to the sulfide zone before mining operations required a more significant effort. This additional effort appeared in recent time when most of the surface deposits were left to fallow sorta speak.

On the Rand massive gold deposits in a quartz conglomerate setting were deposited in what can only described as a fossil placer in an iron rich atmosphere which cause the gold to be precipitated out of solution by living organisms. I mention this as to only suggest that the deposits you were discussing were well massive.

In case of the Superstitions the historical questions must start with an understanding of the geology as you have pointed to. The geology points to a history not the other way around.

As you have suggested this is not about the locals.

Thanks for sharing.

Klondike

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun May 07, 2017 8:46 pm

Hi Somehiker and Klondike,

It is agreed that the local Apaches did the mining. From what I've read, the Aztecs were a strange and perverse society, not only their leaders, but the common citizens as well. Their economy was built on bartering, they had no metal money, and they prized gold for it's beauty, especially high purity gold! They commonly bartered their own children into slavery or for sacrifice.

It is great to see that their are still people like yourselves that are still interested in the Peralta Mines/Lost Dutchman mystery. The mines were real and there was a much bigger operation here than most realize.

I've been putting together another post for a few days, on electronic paper and in my head, and believe mercury, not gold, is the key to solving this puzzle and have some new information and ideas to share. First Water Canyon was especially beautiful today; the weather was uncommonly cool, and the creek was actually still flowing.

cuzzinjack

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:59 pm

For pre-Columbian mines to produce the quantity of high-fineness gold the Aztecs possessed (and the immense treasure Cortez lost) with stone tools, it is reasoned that only very rich surface supergene deposits were mined. This type of ore, some assaying as much as hundreds of ounces of Au per ton was found at the Old Wasp Mine, the Mammoth Mine, and others in Goldfield. A key descriptor of the Mammoth bonanza by John Wilburn is that the ore was in “brecciated arkose” which will be discussed further below. With the circumstances detailed in the thread above and recent discoveries described below, it is within reason that the Goldfield District was the source of the Aztec gold, which was never found.

Typically, VMS deposits are found in clusters, or districts, and the supergene deposits created at the top of them by leaching can be incredibly rich. There are usually one or two very large deposits in a VMS District, and several smaller ones. It was posted in this thread that several sites were investigated by seismic methods and had positive results about 500 yards N60W of Cerro Negra (and about 2.5 miles from Goldfield). More has been learned about VMS deposits by the author since this thread began, and the areas studied seismically were re-investigated as potential sites of VMS deposits.

One of the largest and richest, if not THE richest, VMS deposit ever mined is the Rio Tinto deposit in Spain…. Rio Tinto has been mined for 5000 years, and is even rumored to have been the site of King Solomon’s mines. The Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Moors, and Spanish all mined this deposit, and the Romans sank shafts there up to 350 feet deep. The upper portions of the deposit were rich in gold and silver, and the lower copper zones are still being mined today by open pit methods. Below is a Roman water-wheel that was found at Rio Tinto:

Image

When the Spanish came to the new world, they did not just “fall off the turnip truck” in regards to mining, and especially in regards to the geology and mining of VMS ore deposits. It is likely that the Spanish were the most skilled miners and geologists? in the world, largely due to Rio Tinto.

There is a special subset of VMS deposits called sub-seafloor VMS deposits. They are formed below the seafloor and do not express themselves on the seafloor except by “leaks”. Cerro Negra is one of these, formed beneath the basalt, and likely also where nearby locations were positively tested for pits. At Rio Tinto, a large portion of the deposit was sub-seafloor type as shown in this diagram:

Image

There is a special wall rock alteration that is exclusive to VMS deposits, and it is the replacement of the feldspar by black chlorite, a fine mica. There are many outcrops and ridges of this black chlorite that surround the seismically-tested areas described in this thread. Below is what an outcrop of black mica altered Whitetail arkose looks like in the area that was seismically tested:

Image

This is what the black chlorite-altered breccia looks like when sawn (the black material used to be tan- colored Whitetail formation feldspar). Under magnification, the mica leaves can be seen and they are a dark green:

Image

These are links to photos of a diamond drill core from 2 holes that came from the seismically tested area that have heavy black chlorite alteration:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/corephotos/1.box.JPG
http://mollymarieprospect.com/corephotos/3.all.jpg

On the fringes of VMS deposits a rock called “jasperoid” is found. This is a mixture of silica and hematite. Below are photos of the jasperoid beds that are intruded into the Whitetail arkose directly west of the largest filled-in pits found seismically:

Image
Image

Finally, below is a photo showing the location of the geophone lines used to find the pits (previously posted above), with the outcrops of the black chlorite, and outcrops of jasperoid. The dashed circle is a guesstimate of how large a VMS deposit could be below in the brecciated arkose. Just like the Mammoth, the 2 short ridges that were seismically tested are totally comprised of the reactive brecciated Whitetail arkose.

Image

There is one method that was found (besides drilling), that is nearly an acid test for VMS deposits, and it is a gravity survey performed on the ground. This an example of a VMS deposit indicated by gravity:

Image

It is evident by the black chlorite and jasperoid, that the areas found to be pits by seismic means were the sites of supergene-enriched VMS deposits. A ground gravity survey should prove or disprove, once and for all, the extensiveness of the core of Peralta Mines that were also likely mined in pre-Columbian times. The area that includes the seismically tested areas is much larger than Cerro Negra and may be the location of a “big one” described above; the pit locations may be “leaks” from a much larger deposit below.

The Franciscans were known for helping? indigenous peoples avoid and escape the horrors of Spanish occupation, and Father Marcos de Niza may have been the facilitator of the Franciscan’s greatest achievement: the coordination of the concealment of the mines that were the source of the Aztec Gold. It certainly must have been a concern in 1539 that the Pima and other tribes of the north would be exterminated by Spanish ruthlessness once the source of the Aztec gold was found, as was experienced throughout the Caribbean; the New Laws of the Indies for the Good Treatment and Preservation of the Indians were not enacted until 1542.

It is planned to perform a ground gravity survey this winter in the areas described.

cuzzinjack

klondike
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by klondike » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:38 am

Hello Cuzzinjack,

A tip of the hat for all the work that you have done. The magnitude of these mining operations must have been immense and incredibly rich based on your analysis.

Considering that they are closely associated with submarine volcanism should be a clue as to the environment in the impact area and the possible great age of the mining operations that ensued. Believe a number of Canadian deposits are a result of this type of activity. Seems Boyle wrote an essay on this just can`t place it right now.

Good luck in your efforts. What you find may surprise you. If those areas are opened and you locate the remains of mining activity they will be like a cake with layer after layer going back in time. And what maybe intriguing is the older you go back the more sophisticated the activities become. Indeed as the waters retreated to reveal the deposits and other things, what type of vessels were in the area will become an interesting activity for historical research.

Klondike

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:20 pm

Hi Klondike,

Thank you sir; that means a lot. 5 pairs of boots, 3 loupes, 4 backpacks, 3 rock hammers, 3 computers, 2 pickup trucks, 14 years, and we are here.

Speaking of sailing in Arizona, it is amazing that Hernando de Alarcon commanded 3 ships to sail up the Sea of Cortez and up the Colorado River as far as 100 miles to meet the Coronado expedition with supplies. It would seem that both parties were intentionally misguided. Alarcon may have made it even further, but he did not file an official report of his journey.

cuzzinjack

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Re: Chichilticale

Post by holyground » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:04 am

When Coronado traveled north from Mexico City, following the ancient trails, everything was a mystery to him. Which is the quickest way to Zuni? This was his question to the Indians he met along the way. Finding the right trail was his number one goal as they came to many villages along the ancient trail. He left Mexico City with several Indian guides, but they probably did not know the exact trails to take once they reached the far North. To communicate to other Indians there, mastery of the native language, as well as the ability to morph the different tongues through linguistic similarities, into something understandable, was the best tool his Indian guides had for finding his destination. All along the trail northward, they stopped and talked with the different tribes to get a clearer picture of their route. Somewhere along the trail, they asked the way to the mountain crossing that would take them into the vast wilderness, eventually leading to Cibola. They were unaware at the time, but Cibola would turn out to be just simple mud huts of the Zuni Tribe. In getting there, however, this odd word, Chichilticale, was first uttered by the Europeans. I should say that was when the Spaniards first invented the word, Chichilticale. Chichilticale? “What does this Chichilticale mean?” Many people have asked that question for hundreds of years. Chichilticale was the last place along the trail that was inhabited, and it was the defining line between this populated area and the complete wilderness area beyond. When Coronado and his expeditionary force finally came upon Chichilticale, the Spaniards in the party knew for certain that they were there. For on the trail, as it had been explained to them that a seven thousand feet high mountain would come into view. This particular mountain looked like not one, but two sets of female breasts, that mountain would be Chichilticale. The Spanish word for the female breasts is Chi-chi. Ticale merely signified it as a place. The Chi-chi place is known today as Four Peaks. It really was that amazingly simple. That is how it was explained to me one day, by a wonderful old Indian gentleman, as we sat under the shade of a cottonwood tree, near a cool spring.
“These were, after all, a bunch of lonely men out there on the lonely trails of New Spain.” he told me! “Everything reminded them of breasts!”
The Four Peaks from afar, do look exactly as it was explained to the Spaniards, and to me, by an older Indian gentleman. That makes it true, I rest my case.

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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:33 pm

Hello holyground,

That sounds very logical, and falls right into place. Thanks for sharing the information.

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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:43 pm

Hello,

To continue this thread with Hernando de Alarcon, where it left off, this begins with some background information:

The Aztecs, it was learned, were not unfamiliar with watercraft. They had an intricate system of canals, bridges, and a water transportation system of canoes and boats, since Tenochtitlan was on an island in the middle of a large lake. The below link gives a great presentation of their system (note the flat-bottomed canoe). The canoe shown was estimated to hold as much as a ton.

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/hom ... navigation

This leads into another subject: If the Aztecs were to travel to the Superstition Mountains, how would they get there? Even the Aztecs steered clear of the Yaquis, so wouldn’t overland travel to the Superstitions be out of the question? Probably so.

The Lerma River begins near Tenochtitlan, empties into the Santiago River, and then into the mouth of the Sea of Cortez. The river combination is not navigable by powered boats due to large waterfalls and some rapids, but they could be portaged around without great difficulty with small craft. The Sea of Cortez is relatively calm compared to the exposed Pacific coast, so much so that this writer has seen it almost as flat as a “pane of glass”.

The Gila of course, was navigable, by large powered boat or small canoe.

It is suggested that the Aztecs had a relatively easy path to the Superstitions if they wanted to go there. No sailing ships would have been necessary. The Mayans were known to travel up and down the Pacific coast by canoe to trade, and they were on the exposed Pacific shore. Below is a map of the path the Aztecs could have taken:

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Now back to Hernando Alarcon. After all the stories and information read about the Superstitions and all the things that have been learned, nothing grabs this author like the combined story of Fr. Marcos de Niza, Hernando Alarcon, and the Coronado Expedition. Even the findings of the Salazar survey (in the thread here with the same name), does not elevate itself to the level of the Marcos de Niza-Alarcon-Coronado story which happened almost 500 years ago.

The only record of the Alarcon journey was a translated letter written by Alarcon. This was found on the net, and it was found to be truly fascinating. A link to it is here. Click on the “view pdf” button. Then save it; you will want it for your files!

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/E ... 3242e3602e

Many have their own interpretations of this letter, and these are my gleanings:
• Alarcon came from Spain with 2 ships and a third joined him from New Spain: The Saint Gabriel.
• Marcos de Niza did not have a week that was unaccounted for; it was 2 months! Esteban had been in Cibola 2 months before getting killed!
• The natives already knew about Esteban being killed and chopped into pieces. News travelled well on the Meso-American trail system.
• Alarcon knew there was no gold in Cibola after interviewing the natives.
• Alarcon made 2 trips up-river with smaller sail boats.
• 18 miles (6 leagues) was gained in the first day pulling with ropes (hawsers) or poling. Later only 2 men were said to be pulling the boats upstream.
• On the first journey upstream, the boats became grounded on many sandbars.
• On the first journey they went upstream to as close as 10 days journey on foot from Cibola. This is not possible going up the Colorado past the Gila.
• The second trip had different items reported, including the area with extremely strong current that was not reported on the first trip.
• It was 15-1/2 days upstream and 2-1/2 days downstream on journey one. The 2-1/2 days downstream was key in guesstimating how far upstream they were.
• There were many sandbars that the boats could not navigate on the first journey
• Hernando Alarcon had to leave the Port of Colima literally like a thief in the night on the return from the expedition because of being asked a lot of questions.
• Hernando Alarcon died on his return from the journey of an illness (another source).

These are my initial thoughts considering the paper:

• Given the information in the paper “as is”, it is clear to me that the first journey up-river took a right turn at the Gila River and the second journey was up the Colorado proper past themouth the Gila River.
• The boats were empty on the first journey. It is inconceivable that the boats could be pulled or pulled upstream in the Colorado current for 18 miles when loaded, among other reasons.
Below is a map of the rivers:

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• Marcos de Niza deceived the 1200 people of the Coronado expedition and all of New Spain for that matter. That’s a proven fact. All of New Spain must have been waiting with great anticipation for what the expedition might find. He risked his life in lying to them as he did and he knew it; the question is: why did he lie? There had to be something very great to do so.
• The Coronado expedition could have met Alarcon if they would have went up the Santa Cruz river and to Chichilticale (the Casa Grande ruins). Why did Marcos de Niza avoid Alarcon instead of meeting him with the Coronado expedition by taking them far to the east?

These are my conclusions:

There are way too many “coincidences” here.

• The Aztecs knew full well of the network of the Meso-American trail system. A little arm bending (literally), a little plying with liquor, and voila, you have a really, really, good map.
• Marcos knew exactly where he was going when he left Mexico City on his first expedition. Esteban knew also, but his was the wrong place!
• Marcos and his helpers mined some ore from the pit or pits and sent it down the Salt River and cached it at the confluence of the Salt and Gila rivers. It was shipped with canoes similar to the flat-bottomed canoes of the Aztecs.
• Alarcon’s real mission was learned when he met up with the Saint Gabriel; get the ore left at the intersection of the Salt and Gila! It is 250 miles, or 10 days up the Salt River and then to Cibola from the intersection, just like the letter says.
• Alarcon’s two boats left empty on the first mission, and returned full.
• The second mission half-heartedly left food and letters near the mouth of the Gila as found by Diaz the next year.
• Alarcon left Colima in the dark of night because somebody talked and the authorities and other captains were asking questions.
• Alarcon dies mysteriously on the ship after leaving Colima. Back then, the bodies were quickly disposed of at sea. I offer that Alarcon did not die here, but long afterwards.

It is very surprising that the Marcos de Niza-Coronado-Alarcon story has been overlooked for so long.

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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:43 pm

Hello,

First, here are 2 more links to Alarcon letter in case one breaks:

https://escholarship.org/content/qt86x6 ... x647bs.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ba55/8 ... e3602e.pdf

I went tubing on the Salt River last weekend, and experienced first-hand just how easy it would be to float the Salt and Gila with the flat-bottomed Aztec canoe below.

Image

Going overland to the Superstitions from central Mexico or anywhere near a river that empties into the Sea of Cortez just doesn’t make sense.

But is there any evidence that ties the Salt and the Gila rivers, and pre-Columbian and the post-Columbian visitors to the Superstitions? Yes, by way of the Burbridge Map. This map has been mentioned here before, but will be discussed in detail.

As discussed earlier, the Burbridge Map was found hidden inside an old book cover in Mexico. It is dated 1753, and it was dated by the University of Arizona as truly from the 18th century. As posted before, the title of this map is a mixture of Spanish, Portuguese, and Latin, and translates to “The esteemed people of the Salt River District of the North”. Thomas Kollenborn made an easier-to-read sketch of it and added translations, but there it is a great mystery why he did not include the Salt River that was on the original, or the trail leading from it. Below is the Thomas Kollenborn version with the Salt River and Trail included in red.

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Here is the original Burbridge map:

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After a whole lot of searching, it is safe for this author to say that there is only one Mining District of this magnitude between the Superstition Mountains and the Salt River…. The Molly Marie District. The trail leading from the Salt River corresponds with Willow Springs wash that empties into Saguaro Lake. This wash goes through some extremely rough country that would be impossible to hike other than through the wash. The “workers camp” to the N.W. of the District corresponds with Government Well.

It seems logical that the only reason that the trail from the Salt River was put on the original map is because the Salt River was being used to float people and supplies (and gold) up and down stream. If people and supplies were brought overland they would come from the trail marked on the map leading from S.W. of the District, probably from the Casa Grande Ruins at the junction of the Gila and the Santa Cruz rivers.

Where is the Cerro Viejo or “old hill” shown on the map? Considering the map is already dated 1753, it has been a mystery to the author what time period it could have been from. The thought of Aztecs was thought of over a decade ago, but until recently the idea of Aztecs was dismissed.

One hill has always been envisioned that could be the “old hill” because of its location relative in the mining District and its relative location on the Burbridge Map. It is thought that this would have been the first hill to be mined. The rock on and surrounding the hill in question is the most heavily altered of all hills and ridges in the District. The epidote, chlorite, horneblende, vuggy silica and granular quartz found there is impressive.
Below is an annotated photo of the collapse caldera, the mining district and the position of the “old hill”.

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On the edge of one of the largest disturbed areas is a fallen down 1-room stone house. Someone lived here in the 1920’s. Looking closer, on the ground, a much larger wall surrounded the stone house, and the “base course” of the wall can be seen.
Below is a “zoom” into the hill showing the disturbed areas and the location of the fallen down rock house.

Image

There is on more map that seems to be showing the location of one of the mines and dovetails with the walled area, and it is the La Mina de la Sombrero map:

Image

It is thought that this is not showing “Bicknell’s shaft” but a shaft that was dug alongside one of the filled in open pits and through the fill to get to the “good stuff” that was being mined before it was filled in, possible in 1539. Considering the map is looking to the east, this is what the 2 lines on the cliff on the map correspond to on the cliffs of Hackberry Spring:

Image

It is strange to think that Marcos de Niza probably stood on the “Old Hill”. There are trees located today in the same position on the map.

Although El Sombrero is not shown on the Mina de la Sombrero map (which the name implies), the “Old Hill” coincidentally has the best view of “El Sombrero” anywhere on the planet. Below is a view from the “Old Hill”.

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Some more seismic work will be done in this area, but this is probably the best place to start an archaeologic investigation with a trackhoe (excavator).

A diagram has been assembled showing all the work that has been done concerning the missing mining district, including the story lines, the biggest players, the most important documents etc. below:

Image

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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:13 pm

Hello,

No one is commenting about the information presented in the past few weeks, but people are still reading, so it must not be totally off base?
Just the other day, I had a “big duh” moment. It suddenly occurred to me that the Mina de la Sombrero map was dated 1927 and the well-respected local resident told me someone lived in the stone house in the 1920’s. Just ANOTHER coincidence, right? Below is a photo of what the stone house looks like today:

Image

This house was made of stone with cement mortar; it seems a little overboard for the time period. It’s a little “pillbox”, maybe 8’x10’ or smaller inside. Who knows how it fell down; maybe the Forest Service knocked it down, maybe contraction from heat and cold, or maybe even SUBSIDENCE.

It can be seen also that there is a spectacular view of Superstition Mountain from this hill, especially in the afternoon.

Tying back the Mina de la Sombrero map, why are there walls in close proximity to the shaft, for defense against Apaches? That would not turn out so well. So, why? It is suggested that the walls were constructed so that YOU COULD NOT SEE WHAT HE/THEY WERE DOING in the 1920’s. This hill is out in the open and Goldfield can be seen a few miles off, so if some mining was being done on the sly, it would make sense to put a pill-box type structure over the shaft and lock it up when not at home. It will be interesting to see if there is a shaft beneath this rubble or in the larger area that was walled off at one time.

The photo of El Sombrero was described incorrectly above, it was taken from the hill dubbed Cerro Negro, about 500 yards away. Below is a photo of El Sombrero looking directly over the “Old Hill”. The stone house is on top of the hill behind the top of the tallest saguaro. You can see that the view of El Sombrero is breathtaking from the top of this hill.

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On the same line of sight and bearing from the old hill, this view of El Sombrero can be seen from the Peralta trail:

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Here a couple of more pictures of El Sombrero taken slightly to the left of the old hill.

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You can see here why the name of El Sombrero was given; it can only seen as a “hat” in a very narrow band, and from the “old hill” it can be seen the best of all.

It is very enthralling to think that the crossroads of five centuries of history may be in one concentrated area on Cerro Viejo.

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Re: Chichilticale

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:52 pm

Hello,

The Forest Service finally opened First Water road back up after more than a month, so I made a beeline to the Stone House.

This is a photo of how it looks today from the same perspective as the photo below. The photo above was taken over 10 years ago. Part of the thick cover of dead grass that is everywhere can be seen.

Image

The house was carefully paced off, and it is square inside, 11’ x 11’; square just like the La Mina de la Sombrero map. In this photo, looking NNW, the bottom of the house can be seen. The pack is right in the middle. It appears that the floor is sunken in the middle and on the west side. In the background it can be seen that someone threw pieces of the house on the other side of the trail. Some has been thrown down the hillside also.

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This is a photo looking east. A large piece of the north wall fell outwards beneath the tree and is intact, and it looks like the ceiling was well over 6 feet inside. The pack is right in the middle. You can see this house was very stout.

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Last year, I was texting while walking down the trail in the evening by the stone house as there is cell phone service on the hilltop, and the below was in the path. I came close to stepping on it, and almost jumped out of my skin. This critter likely lives in the ruins of the stone house. This is by far the strangest diamondback I have seen because he actually flattened himself to try and conceal. Strange. Never text while walking in the desert!

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