Massacure

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
cuzzinjack
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Re: Massacure

Post by cuzzinjack » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:51 am

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the reply and information. From what I’ve read, the Manila-Acapulco-Manila Galleon system was as corrupt as you could get, and corruption is what probably caused its demise. After 250 years, it made a lot of unsavory people incredibly wealthy. If a lot of gold from the Superstitions was being shipped, it seems like the Manila Galleons, Acapulco, and Manila would have been avoided, because there were few, if any, people to trust. So this leaves us with the Chinese junks, and a separate transportation system? This must be so, because no one ever found out about it, right?!!!

As far as Chinese coming ashore, and up the Gila, there is one sure way to prove it imo, and that is by DNA. The articles I’ve found say something about Navaho DNA, but little to none about Apache DNA, and nothing about specific areas, say around Camp Verde.

Hopefully these ideas have stirred the pot, and some more info from others will be brought forth.

cuzzinjack

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Potbelly Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:50 pm

Hi Jack,

Yes, the Jesuits would have had a separate transportation system if they were smuggling gold. Such a system is another thing I'm not convinced of, but I have done no research in that area so I'm pretty ignorant of what was or wasn't going on. There are people here who ARE well versed in these subjects and I hope they will weigh in.

I understand the DNA thing, the only thing I would say is I don't think it would be very conclusive. The area you're looking at was populated by many different tribes/races over this specific time-frame. I would say the Yavapai (a genetically mixed tribe that originally wasn't "kin" to Apaches) and the Tonto and Pinal Apache (also mixed) would be the prime candidates, but there may have been other people living in the area during any time of possible Chinese exploration.

The accounts of "Apaches" speaking "Tartar" are intriguing, but IMO are probably not as they would appear to the authors, or to us, after the fact...but for argument's sake, let's assume they are correct, that "Apaches" were speaking "Tartar". I would point out that this could have been possible due to mixing in THEIR lifetimes, and not something more ancient. For example, I can understand and communicate in Spanish, simply because I'm from AZ and grew up among people who used the language...this doesn't mean my ancestors mixed and worked with the Spanish.

All that being said, I think your theories are very interesting and I'm not the best person to say what was, or was not, possible. Just giving you my impression for what it's worth. :wink:

Take care, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: Massacure

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:32 am

Hi Jim,

I think you just set the stove to “high”!

The Jesuits weren’t even on my radar screen, but by just mentioning them, you have discovered the mortar that welds this whole thing together. In a very short time, it was learned that the founder of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) died in China! By 1844 China may have had 240,000 Roman Catholics, due to the Jesuits! The Jesuits may have been expelled from New Spain, but not China. In 1595, the Jesuits opened the first school in the Philippines!

Yes, I agree; if the Apaches in question were speaking Tartar, it was something they learned in their lifetime and would have been a second language to them.

I do not know if you or know of others that have had your DNA checked by ancestry.com, but the information they give you is pretty amazing. I received a test as a gift. They can dial your background in with an accuracy (location, and time frame) you wouldn’t believe. I have to admit, I regret having it done. Say, for instance, you give a sample (and your name) and one of your relatives in the next 50 years was to become a “freedom fighter”, for the lack of a better term. If that person leaves any DNA, he/she can be narrowed down to a few candidates, or one, easily just because of the relative giving DNA 50 years before. Ancestry.com and others have helped the law solve oodles of crimes in this manner, by sharing their database (which they said they wouldn’t share). What I’m suggesting is completely voluntary sampling with no names, no photos, of likely-looking candidates from several locations in Arizona. But, maybe there wouldn’t be any volunteers.

This debate is great, and you may feel like I do and think this “mystery” has gone on long enough. So many are passing and taking so much valuable information with them. There is a big story here, and hope others come forth to “frost the cake”.

cuzzinjack

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Re: Massacure

Post by cuzzinjack » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:56 pm

Hello Jim,

As Graham Green said in the movie “Wind River”, “This thing is solving itself!”.

Let me share a few things about Padre Eusebio Francisco Kino, one of the more famous Jesuits.

Kino dearly wanted to be missionary in China, but he was given a mission on the California peninsula instead, after 8 years of petitioning his superiors. Kino had studied mathematics, astronomy and other natural sciences at several Universities for 12 years. This guy was smart. So that begs the question: Why would the Jesuits send a top hand to the barren rock of the California peninsula? Many had failed, including Cortez to establish a colony there. The barren rock and poor soil had no redeeming qualities. But wait a minute…….

From the following “A Biographical Note on Isidro de Antondo y Antillón: Admiral of the Californias” By Michael Mathes the following is written:

“The failure to discover new land and the problems of supply from Sinaloa resulted in the abandonment of San Bruno in May, 1685. Kino continued exploration of the coast; and Atondo, under the terms of his commission, searched for pearl beds at Isla del Carmen and La Paz. The coming of October storms forced the return of both parties to Matanchen on the Nayarit Coast; and, while Kino jour¬neyed to Mexico to seek Viceregal aid for San Bruno, Atondo sailed to the Pacific Coast of Baja California and escorted the Manila Galleon to Acapulco. Upon Atondo's return, he joined Kino in December, 1685, at hearings held to determine the future of San Bruno. Both requested further aid for the settlement of California and estimated the annual cost at 30,000 pesos. Despite this testimony and the expenditures already incurred, a Royal Order was issued on December 22 sus¬pending the colonization of California due to the problems of Indian revolt in Durango and New Mexico”.

Are you kidding me? A direct link of Kino to the Manila Galleons!

After he was reassigned to Pimeria, Kino may have been the “Punisher” of his time.

The following is from “The Weekly Bulletin” (Nogales):

On July 16, 1695, a conference of war was held at the military encampment in Cocospera and it was decided to "punish the rebels in a manner worthy of their wickedness." In attendance was Father Kino and the military chaplin, Jesuit Agustine de Campos, who rode with the troops.
More than 300 of the toughest Spanish cavalry soldiers, militiamen, and Indian allies were gathered "for the task of punishing the perpetrators." One man, Juan de Barcelona, "was once relieved from military duty for cruelty, but reinstated for this campaign."

On July 20, 1695, at 6 a.m., all participants attended a Mass conducted by the Father Kino. Forgiveness was asked for what they were about to do and the campaign commenced.

Kino was now under guard at his home in Dolores. At one point, his personal bodyguard and companion, Lt. Juan Mateo de Manje, realized Kino's guards had left Dolores, which was about to be attacked by rebel Jocome. Manje and his men rode 17 miles, "a rompe cincho," and deflected the attack.

The Spaniards were particularly interested in Indians found in possession of sacred items or vestments taken from churches. Judgment was rendered on the spot. "Rebels condemned to death were dispatched with a musket ball shot to the head and those who claimed to have been baptized Christens were given the courtesy of a blindfold."

Kino ran as least 3 of his expeditions by the Casa Grande ruins and on the Gila, in 1994, 1697, and 1699. Considering his penchant for climbing mountains, it is highly likely he climbed Flatiron just to see the view.

The following is from the Kino Heritage Society website:

http://padrekino.com/kino-legacy/horseman/

“He was usually well equipped with horses and mules from his own ranches, for he took at different times as many as fifty, sixty, eighty, ninety, one hundred and five, and even one hundred and thirty head. A Kino cavalcade was a familiar sight in Pima Land.”

Could Kino have been hand chosen by the Jesuits to streamline the whole system of running gold and mercury to and from the Superstitions? He is directly linked to the Manila Galleons and he had the wherewithal to move gold and mercury at will, but likely just showing an example for others to follow.

On a final note, I don’t think the Jesuits of old ran away from corruption and the Manila Galleons, they just directed it:

This is from “Jesuit China missions” from the New World Encyclopedia:

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... a_missions

The Jesuits succeeded in planting a Chinese church that has stood the test of time. However, one should not overlook the fact that the Jesuit financial policy grievously aggravated the difficulties of that church. Their missionaries involved themselves in business ventures of various sorts; they became the landlords of income-producing properties, developed the silk industry for Western trade, and organized money-lending operations on a large scale. All these eventually generated misunderstanding and tension between the foreign community and the Chinese people. The Communists held this against them as late as the mid-twentieth century.

cuzzinjack

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Re: Massacure

Post by Somehiker » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:41 am

Potbelly Jim wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:01 pm
Jack,

I for one certainly find it intriguing, it's obvious you've given this a great deal of thought. Not that I'm convinced that the Chinese were in the Supes, as it would have been far easier for the Jesuits to trade gold to the Chinese in the Philippines, and it would make sense that they would look to Asia for mercury and to unload gold without the Spanish authorities being able to track them. Also, If they were operating mines in the SW without the knowledge of the Spanish Govt, they certainly couldn't have gotten quicksilver from Spain without raising the alarm. So your theory about Chinese mercury makes sense, IMO.

The lack of mercury for Spanish mining efforts in the SW is well documented, and Capt. Manje is said to have operated a cinnabar mine in central AZ.

Take care, Jim
First Emperor's Tomb/Terra Cotta warriors/ Cinnabar and Mercury connection.
I remembered reading this awhile back.....

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 080114.php

"These five scholars likewise revealed in the study, which was published in the Chinese Science Bulletin, that polychrome layers applied to these sculpted imperial guards were composed of natural inorganic pigments and binding media. These pigments have been identified as including cinnabar [HgS], apatite [Ca5(PO4)3OH], azurite [Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2] and malachite [Cu2CO3(OH)2], etc., but the precise composition of binding media used in the painting process had long eluded scientists."

I also recall something having been said about the Lime Kilns just to the north of the Salt R. having been constructed and used by the Chinese .
Likely involved in the construction industry of late 1800's Phoenix, they may have also mined cinnabar where it was found in the area, even the Sups.,since mercury was always in demand by miners and other users as well. Any chance to make a buck.

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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:44 pm

Jack,

Good work on digging all that stuff up so quickly. I've done a little digging when the Jesuits come up in forum discussions, but have only scratched the surface. The instance you relate of Kino being involved in punishment may be misinterpreted. I believe Deducer posted a letter from Kino on TNET about this incident, which I believe came from Mike (Gollum). From what I could make out in the letter, Kino was upset about the punishment and thought it would lead to barbarism on the part of the Indians. He was very critical of the military authorities in that regard.

As far as smuggling routes and methods, I hope once Mike(Gollum) sees these posts he will weigh in. I know next to nothing about it myself.

Wayne, regarding mercury around there...I've panned amalgamated gold out of a dry wash in the area...just to the north of the Supes, on the back side of Four Peaks, it contained more than one sample, three that I found and two that a buddy found within about 3 hrs. Not unheard of, but never did find out why. Could have been some modern guy that just lost it in the wash while he was cleaning up. On the other hand, I've found old arrastras up there also. Just seemed weird to find it in a little tiny wash out in the middle of nowhere.

Take care, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: Massacure

Post by Deducer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:35 pm

cuzzinjack wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:32 am

The Jesuits weren’t even on my radar screen, but by just mentioning them, you have discovered the mortar that welds this whole thing together. In a very short time, it was learned that the founder of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) died in China! By 1844 China may have had 240,000 Roman Catholics, due to the Jesuits! The Jesuits may have been expelled from New Spain, but not China. In 1595, the Jesuits opened the first school in the Philippines!
Ignatius Loyola died in Rome. You are probably thinking of one of the six original apostles, St. Francisco Xavier, who indeed did die in China, on Shangchuan Island.

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Re: Massacure

Post by Deducer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:10 pm

Potbelly Jim wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:44 pm
Good work on digging all that stuff up so quickly. I've done a little digging when the Jesuits come up in forum discussions, but have only scratched the surface. The instance you relate of Kino being involved in punishment may be misinterpreted. I believe Deducer posted a letter from Kino on TNET about this incident, which I believe came from Mike (Gollum). From what I could make out in the letter, Kino was upset about the punishment and thought it would lead to barbarism on the part of the Indians. He was very critical of the military authorities in that regard.
Jim, Kino's attitude towards punishment of natives came with conditions- he was opposed to punishment meted out to ordained natives, but those that refused to convert were fair game, as far as he was concerned.

Loyola, and by extension, Kino, who opposed Jesuits administering physical punishments to students or converts on religious grounds did permit a "workaround" whereby "correctors" or non-Jesuits would administer what was deemed necessary punishments. The Jesuits, were after all, very intolerant of indigenous cultural and religious practices, and sought to stamp it out wherever possible.

It's somewhat hard to dig up the goods on Kino because so much of his endeavors have been whitewashed and purified (in part to enhance his sainthood), but there are jewels here and there that reveal his real personality and who exactly he was and what his agenda and motivation was in Pimeria Alta. He was VERY industrious, almost too industrious not to have been thinking about a grand, strategic vision for the order and it's longevity, which of course included making sure the order's coffers were very full by any means necessary.

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Re: Massacure

Post by Deducer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:18 pm

Meant to say "christened" instead of "ordained." Native clergy was of course prohibited by the order.

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Re: Massacure

Post by Oroblanco » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:43 pm

Not to derail this topic, just an observation. The Jesuits 'endeavors' in China went somewhat off the rails, gaining numerous 'converts' though it was highly questionable whether it was anything resembling Christianity. The Jesuits adapted the Catholic rituals to suit the local Chinese people, resulting in quite a scandal, just look up the "Chinese rites" - the Jesuits were specifically ordered by the Pope to stop the heathen rituals which were bastardizing Christianity beyond recognition, and the Jesuits refused to obey the orders. It took quite an effort to get it stopped.

Their efforts in other countries likewise had surprising results - in Japan they immediately attempted to get control over the gold mining and were believed to be behind a massive plot to overthrow the Emperor. On being ordered out of Japan, they managed to sneak a number of Jesuits back in, some of whom were again caught and executed. It is a pattern of behavior that makes one wonder why it took the Spanish crown so long to wake up to their own peril at allowing these agitators and conspirators to operate in their dominions.

Please do continue, apologies for the off topic drift.
Oroblanco
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Re: Massacure

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:18 pm

Hello Oroblanco,

That didn’t seem off-topic at all and it is great to see people that are very learned on the subject share their knowledge. I had read that the Jesuits had some business dealings, but did not realize it went so deep, especially in Japan. Kino, the Jesuits, China, and mining in the Superstitions are one big cauldron, imo.

I agree with Jim that the Weekly Bulletin article I’d posted about Kino was embellished for entertainment purposes, but just the fact that he was a Jesuit at that time and in that place puts him in a bad light. He certainly wasn’t going on Sunday afternoon rides with over 100 mules and horses. He was a rich man that apparently had several ranches.

Fast forward a hundred years after supposedly the Jesuits were gone:

From the works of Hubert Howe Bancroft: History of the northwest coast. 1886:

“Sea otter skins to the number of several thousand collected on the coast of California are sent by the Spanish missionaries to China each year by way of Manila. The Spaniards within these two years have imported the sea-otter to China: they collect their skins near their settlements of Monterey and San Francisco….The Padres are the principal conductors of this traffic. In 1787 they imported about 200 skins, and at the beginning of this year 1500. They are sent to Acapulco, and thence by the annual galleon to Manila.”

Here we are 100 years after Kino, and it sounds like the Spanish colonial version of the UPS was carrying goods from points on the Pacific coast down to Acapulco to the Manila Galleons. The priests are still running the business. Why not on the coast of the Sea of Cortez also?

It was read in the 1780’s it was common to see Apache heads on top of the walls of the Tucson Presidio. The Spanish seemed to be in control of the Apache situation from Kino’s time up until Mexico’s independence through sheer brutality and butchery, and there was money to support well-trained, if not expert troops.

It is my opinion that during these 130 years or so, most of the mining in the Superstitions took place, and that the Spanish in Tucson or Tubac did not know anything about it. Most of the traffic must have been on the Gila; it would have been much easier and clandestine than going overland. The one blurb about a rich mine 200 leagues north of the Gila in the San Javier del Bac records sure is curious though. The priests at San Javier del Bac and Tucacomori likely knew what was going on and the 200 leagues was a cover for some early land expeditions that had passed through.

Wayne, I also learned it would be very difficult to substantiate Chinese DNA near Camp Verde, pre-1848. There were many, many Chinese living in Jerome in 1867-1868. This information came from “A History of Chinese Immigration into Arizona Territory: A Frontier Culture in the American West by Rhonda Tintle, 2006

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Re: Massacure

Post by Somehiker » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Jack:
"Wayne, I also learned it would be very difficult to substantiate Chinese DNA near Camp Verde, pre-1848. There were many, many Chinese living in Jerome in 1867-1868. This information came from “A History of Chinese Immigration into Arizona Territory: A Frontier Culture in the American West by Rhonda Tintle, 2006"

Late 1800's. So not pre-1948.
Dr. Glover might know more about it .

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