Massacure

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
don
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:19 am

Hi Thomas, indeed we all make mistakes,and my criticism of her book wasnt soley aimed at her questionable statements presented as facts. maybe im making a mountain out of a mole hill over her "indians never lied" passage,but from that statement alone it seemed pretty plain to me that the book was aimed at younger readers (around the 8-10 year age group)..it sounded like a cheesey line from a hopalong cassidy movie lol.it would be interesting to know exactly where she got THAT titbit of info from ...some aged pima chief no doubt lol! it was a truly truly awful book. it should never have been presented as a serious examination of the LDM legend. though looking back the title itself should have given one a broad hint of the kind of work it was.I admit i didnt know of the corbins attempts to withdraw copies of the book ,pity they didnt do it earlier and saved me a few wasted pounds in the process....personally i believe the book was rushed through with little thought with the belief the Corbin name would help sell it.....nothing wrong or seedy about that ,in todays world its the norm...a prime example is the plethora of books on the JFK assassination of which only 1 ,that ive read, has been properly and painstakingly researched and gives a true (as far as our knowledge allows) and accurate state of the events. ive nothing against works of fiction ,but not at all keen on works of "truth in fictional form"......but again the fault lies with the author,if the proper research had been done ,then the author would have discovered the "faults" long before the audience did ......
merry xmas to everyone and be good!
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Massacure

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:30 pm

Don,

Hope all is well with you and your family.

Helen was growing ill and was being pressured by her publisher to get the book done quickly. Like Thomas, she had total trust in her source, come to think of it, I did as well. Bob did not find out the truth about the source until after Helen's death. I was the one who, eventually, gave Bob the information that had been gathered. That was when he tried to pick up all the copies he could. The source has since, publically, claimed it was Helen's obligation to fact check all of the claims in her book.

I believe most of Helen's "Indian" stories came from that same bad source, who has falsely claimed connections to the Apache people since childhood. The Apache have denied any knowledge of him. Many of his "factual" stories were completely made up fiction.

If you can, fact check everyone's stories. I even back check my own "facts", and will revise them if they don't check out. As I mentioned, I took that bad sources stories as gospel for many years. I even check my friend, Dr. Glover's stories. Not because I don't believe he is as honest as the day is long, but because we are all only as honest as our sources.

There are only a few Dutch hunters who's word I (mostly) :wink: take at face value. Bob Corbin, Thomas Glover and my friend Tom Kollenborn. When Tom K. was asked a question, by me, that he did not want to answer, he would just say so. That silence is the old Apache's way of speaking and sometimes it speaks volumes. As Tom and Sharon have often told me, in the Dutch Hunting world there are a few friends and many friendly acquaintances.

Merry Christmas to all!!!!

Joe

don
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:44 pm

Hi Joe,
Glad to see you posting again,I was wondering what had happened.You seem to have been absent for some time,hope you are in good health.
Good advice youve given re..fact checking....ive been found lacking in that department a few times ..or maybe quite a few (cant find the emoji button so a lol will have to do).
I once sent an email to tom kollenborn and greg davis(?)with a question i had regarding a court case in judge standages (sic)mesa court regarding map claims way back....it wasnt that they said they didnt want to answer ...they just didnt reply at all lol....but thats ok...
kind regards
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Potbelly Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:19 pm

Don,

While Thomas and Joe are undoubtedly correct about not blaming Helen Corbin for some inaccuracies in her book…I will admit I responded to it in much the same way you did…

I’m ashamed to say I assumed some of the stories in Helen’s book were done intentionally. What did it for me was the rare Paterson revolver…well, I will just say it would be an incredibly remarkable find, especially hidden in the Supes…much rarer than any gold one might find out there :wink:(has anyone actually seen the gun??? I sure would like to know!!) …and a pioneer story that flew in the face of one I had studied before, unrelated to the LDM…it was Abraham Peeples…

It was not until I ran across this forum that I learned my assumptions were the farthest thing from the truth…I feel horrible now that I had even thought that…For a while, I wanted to take it out on the source…which was just as wrong. I think I learned a lot at any rate.

I still like Helen’s book…there’s still good stuff in there…and now that I know what was going on, I can finally enjoy it as she no doubt hoped everyone would…my thanks to her, and to all here on the forum for getting to the bottom of the whole thing.

Merry Christmas everyone!!
Jim
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don
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:24 am

Potbelly Jim,
i guess id just have to say i cant agree with the opinion that blame should be witheld from H.C regarding the innacuracies in her book .After all she was the author and plainly didnt check the facts she was given ,we arent talking about a little slip such as being a couple of years out on a n important date for instance...im not by the way launching a personal attack on H.C..just tryig to say that the book for me had practically no redeeming qualities at all ,and with the benefit of hindsight not seeing anythig within that book that would justify anyone paying good money for it. i can only imagine that some here know H.C personally or whatever ,hence the "its not H.C,s fault " sorry but it is ...im not suggestig she committed a mortal crime or something but the book should in my opinion be judged on its merits-not on who wrote it. though id say full marks to her/them for withdrawing book from sale etc...be it for authenticity reasons or whatever the reason was.......i probabley shouldnt have wrote this lol
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:45 pm

Don, maybe you're right that some of us want to give Helen Corbin a pass because of friendships, etc...I never knew them but boy howdy did I know OF them...at least Mr. Corbin...I looked up to him and still do...and yes I feel quite a bit of empathy for Helen, what she was going through trying to get that book out...take care, Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:28 pm

Jim,

For sure you are right about Bob. I didn't meet him until after Helen passed away, but I respected Her work. A number of people wanted to throw rocks at her because of that last book, but she was better than that last publication.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:51 pm

Joe,

Yup, she was better...I had read some of her other stuff prior to reading "The Bible"...and I would still buy the book again today, if I didn't already have it...lots of good stuff in there still...

There are a couple of Arizonans I look up to as kind of "fathers" of the state...Barry Goldwater and Bob Corbin are right up there on that list...Corbin's not afraid of anything or anyone, remember those days when we had news reporters getting threatened and car-bombed, and corrupt politicians and their cronies bankrupting everything?...he didn't care who he had to slap the cuffs on, he just took to cleaning house...not to mention he railed against stupid-scared politicians and their ineffective "Assault Weapons Ban" while he was the Pres. of the NRA...

Regarding the massacre grounds and since we're talking about Helen Corbin...I wonder if the gold ore found nearby was really what Senner had high-graded out of the Mammoth...Take care, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: Massacure

Post by ThomasG » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:26 am

Research is an interesting thing. Getting it right is not just a matter of data, but of time and place too. I remember back many years ago there was what were called “Cat Conferences” in Seattle. The conferences targeted non-domestic cats, i.e., non-domestic felidae. At any given conference there might be papers on the evolution of felidae, on their physiology, reports on conservation, habitat, behavior, etc.

At these type conferences there would always be one or two invited speakers, speakers if reputations, which not only helped lend credibility to the conference, but also attracted attendees. I remember one conference in particular. Two German scientists had been asked as guest speakers. Both were morphologists and experts in the evolution of the felidae, in the evolution, the evolutionary relationships of modern felidae. They put on quite a show, as they were rivals.

One on these scientists would deliver a paper. Then came questions. Invariable the rival of the speaker would stand up and praises the speaker – his well thought out presentation, how interesting the talk had been, and so forth and so forth. His rival would layer it on. Then he dropped the boom. He would point out an error of logic, or how a certain fossil had been misidentified by the speaker, etc., etc. Then he would sit down. Then the other German would deliver a paper and his rival would repeat the same behavior. What’s all this have to do with Dutchman research?

Well, the feline morphology the two Germans were arguing over was pre-DNA technology had progressed to today’s standard. Every opinion either of these two men had based on their years of morphology and their disagreements, their opinions, their findings, their conclusions went out the window when DNA analysis progressed to today’s standard. DNA settled (or can settle the issues) on which species of felidae are related and their family tree.

The point being research is often time dependent. New information, perhaps from a pioneer family, may alter long held ideas or conclusions. I was once shown a photograph by the Dick Holmes’ “children” of the jewelry made from the gold Dick Holmes got either from Waltz’s room or from Gideon Roberts, who got the gold from Waltz. That photograph is probably the only document that can identify the jewelry made from that gold. I was privileged to be shown it. The point is that until the existence of that photograph became known, there was no way to factually identify jewelry made with Waltz’s gold.

Then there are the Yavapai County tax records for 1867, ’68, ’69. This was before the existence of Maricopa County. From these records we cab determine that Waltz was not in the Salt River Valley in 1867, nor 1868. But he was there in 1869. In fact, he most likely came to the Salt River Valley the summer of 1869. How do we know?

Yavapai County had a county census in June of 1869. The census covered the Salt River Valley along with the rest of the county. Waltz is not in it. Waltz, however, is in the 1869 tax assessment records taken in August 1869. There is more to this, but this post is getting long enough.
The tax assessment records for Yavapai County for the years 1865, ’66, ’67, ‘68, ‘69 and ‘70 were missing. All but 1870 have been found – but more by luck than other wise. The library and archives of the Sharlot Hall Library and Archives were in a small room of the main building for many years. Due to space limitation much of the collection was kept in the basement, and most patrons were not allowed in the basement. What you did was copy a reference from the card catalogue. You then give it to a staff member who retrieved the item. Then the Sharlot Hall Library and Archives move to larger quarters. In doing this they had to refile everything on the new shelving.

I walked in one day and the then director of the Library and Archives said< “Tom I think I found something interesting for you.” He handed be an untitled small book. It was the tax assessment rolls for 1866 and ’67 (if memory serves). Then one day I was in the Yavapai county recorder’s research facility. They too had moved from former cramped quarters. I was walking to the bathroom when I stretched and looked up. There on the top of shelving a good 10 feet high was a small book sticking out. I asked about it and it turned out to be tax assessment records for 1868. Later the 1869 records were located.

Until this unlikely scenario unfolded one could not check these very crucial records. After all, the taxman likes to be thorough. These records are likely the only ones that document officially the earliest days of the Phoenix Settlement — who was there, their wealth, their possessions, etc.

Sometimes it is information held by a pioneer family’s decedents that hold historical information. Sometimes it is pure luck that documents are found in archives. Sometimes one has to assess the value of information held by a family. Sometimes one gets it right, sometimes we don’t. At least initially.

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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:07 am

its about the only thing that government (s) excel at ...keeping records.And to a large degree we can trust them,if and when they are made public. unfortunately,when it comes to family anecdotes etc the same thing cant be said ,at least to the same degree. "Waltz's jewellery " etc is one such tidbit that just cant be trusted for instance ...if my memory serves me correct the affadavit regarding the gold matchbox signed or witnessed by no less than tom kollenborn says something after the fashion of "said to be made from LDM gold"..the word SAID speaks volumes...I really cant see that rotting away in some musty attic somewhere is a document,or artifact proving the LDM's existence ...however if tax records showed that Waltz ,Thomas in the correct time period ammassed a small fortune,and bought up prime property in san francisco ,or hotel chains, or such like ,which had no logical explanation other than winning the lottery or finding a gold mine would explain ,then that might be different . Thomas being able to pay off a few debts and Waltz living in near poverty plainly doesnt come into that category...for me anyway. but each to his own ..kind regards.
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don
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:08 am

i think ill refrain from posting from here on in ..apart from being in a minority of 1 here ,some might get the opinion im being deliberately argumentative- im not..not deliberately anyway,or with any malice intended. i just cant see why belief in the LDM still persists thats all..maybe id be best advised to just shut up and "go with the flow" and read more and post less lol...anyway a happy new year to all
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Re: Massacure

Post by cuzzinjack » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:05 pm

don,

An age-old riddle was resurrected and modified to explain the LDM conundrum:

Three prospectors had been exploring in the Superstitions for over a week, and they dearly wanted a hot bath. They piled in and old truck and drove into Phoenix to find a room to rent so they could get cleaned up. The first place they came to was the Hotel Peralta. They went to the front desk, and a man named Jacob greets them. One of the prospectors asks, “Do you have a room for three available?” Jacob says, “Well, I don’t have a room for three, but I have a room for two.” The same prospector asks, “How much is it?” Jacob replies, “The room for two is 25 dollars a night, but since there are three of you, I’ll have to charge you 30 dollars.” The prospectors were fine with this, because they just wanted to take a take a hot bath and go back to their camp.

Each of the 3 prospectors gave Jacob 10 dollars and they left and went up to the room.

A little while later, the owner of the hotel (Don Miguel Peralta) shows up and asks Jacob how things are going. Jacob told him with pride that he charged the three prospectors 30 dollars and why he did so. Don Miguel tells him, “You shouldn’t have done that; there are towels for only 2 people, and there is only one double-bed. Take them 5 dollars back.”

Well, Jacob was not too good with math, and it was difficult for him to divide 5 dollars, 3-ways. Being ethically and morally challenged to boot, Jacob simply put two dollars in his pocket while he was walking to the prospector’s room. He knocked on their door and gave them 3 dollars back to divide evenly among themselves.
So, the question is this:

• The prospectors paid 30 dollars for the room........... 30
• Jacob gave them 3 dollars back.......................... - 3
• They paid 27 dollars after the refund ................... 27
• Plus, there are 2 dollars in Jacob’s pocket.............. + 2
• There is a total of 29 dollars ............................. 29

Where is the missing dollar?

How could Jacob pull off this sleight-of-hand?

LDM searchers have been looking diligently for the missing dollar for over 125 years, but it is not missing; it is still in the cash register! The cash register is analogous to a mining district.

Bicknell wrote about it, right out-of-the-gate: a missing MINING DISTRICT. As an example of what a “District” was back in the day, below is a link to a map of the mining districts of Idaho. In fine print it can be seen that the map was originally compiled by a cartographer in 1916.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/sitephoto ... tricts.pdf

Somehow, people just forgot what a “District” was, and replaced the larger theme with an endless stream of mostly-fabricated tales about the Lost Dutchman Mine.

The location of the Peralta mining district and its infrastructure has been proven by geology, geophysics, surveying, and archeology at:

www.mollymarieprospect.com

If you disagree, that’s your prerogative, but the evidence is overwhelming. More is being learned about it every month.

In parting, here is photo of some of the rock from what is from what is believed to be Cerro Viejo, or the “old hill” labeled on the Burbridge Map of 1753. It is heavily metalliferous.

Image

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don
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:01 pm

cuzzin jack

• The prospectors paid 30 dollars for the room........... 30
• Jacob gave them 3 dollars back.......................... - 3
• They paid 27 dollars after the refund ................... 27
• Plus, there are 2 dollars in Jacob’s pocket.............. + 2
• There is a total of 29 dollars ............................. 29
the prospectors "paid" 28 dollars in total ...9 dollars and 33 and a third cents each ....the "missing dollar " is only "missing " because of the way the way the riddle is worded ....spot the similarity between that riddle and the LDM "riddle"...
the issue surely isnt whether there are gold mines (mining districts)in arizona or the superstition mountains or elsewhere ..its whether waltz had one ...if he didnt ,and in my opinion theres very little,if any evidence, to show he did ,then any other gold mines /mining districts are of no importance at all as regards the legend.....it was the riddle which made me post ..i was confused for a minute ,it just shows how easy it is to be misled by words lol
kind regards.
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Potbelly Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:40 pm

Don, a Happy New Year to you also!

Jake gets 30 bucks and puts it in the tiller...
He then takes 5 out, leaving 25 in the tiller...
He then gives 3 bucks back to the smelly prospectors, one of which unfortunately has no towel...

So Sr. Peralta has 25 bucks in the tiller...Jake has 2 in his pocket...and the gang of dirty prospectors has 3 bucks...30 bucks...
Jim R.

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Re: Massacure

Post by cuzzinjack » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:17 pm

don,

Of all the scant "evidence" out there regarding the LDM, Bicknell's 1895 article tells us a lot. I'm not a great researcher like some of you are, but through my readings, it was learned that an author's reputation in the 19th century meant much more than it does today. Bicknell wrote that the mine was part of a District. He interviewed oodles of people (Mexicans, Anglos, and Indians) that surprisingly had the same description.; the mine has an inclined shaft about 75 feet deep. Bicknell said the stories had been circulating for 20 years BEFORE 1895.

I had not seen the article until about a year ago, but long before that drew the conclusion that in the latter years of the District, the Mexicans were mining mostly beneath the basalt. The District had evolved like most others where the ore outcrops on the surface; by pit at first, and then the miners go underground when the stripping ratio gets too high. When you are mining by hand, the pits are going to stay pretty small.

Just in the past year, the use of passive seismic surveying equipment has skyrocketed. With this gear (check out the Geometrics Atom), the depth to bedrock (and inclined shafts), can be easily mapped. The software has been getting better and better. don, I believe, you will have your answer very soon.

But back to the subject of this thread:

It is another "coincidence" that the District as described at www.mollymarieprospect.com is situated beneath the massacre grounds. There are 2 canyons that lead up to the massacre grounds from the base of Superstition Mountain, and one of these leads into the "Valley of Bones". A perfect view of this can be seen on the opening page of the same website.

In 1984, a great metal detector search was conducted at the site of Custer's Last Stand. Volunteers were able to find the evidence needed to map out the entire battle field; it was a great success. It would seem feasible to have another large metal detector search to validate the Peralta massacre. One item in particular would be searched for: buckshot. This was the bane of the Apaches. Cochise was said to have been covered with buckshot scars and he was lucky to have not caught one in the "boiler room". Several pieces of buckshot have been found on the Molly Marie Prospect using a GoldMaster. One piece in particular is made of lead that is brittle and has a conchoidal fracture indicating it is from a primitive source.

It is suggested that a large metal detector search be held in these 2 canyons leading to the massacre grounds, and the massacre story (including a running battle that lasted for days), or lack thereof, will unfold.

cuzzinjack

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Re: Massacure

Post by ThomasG » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:43 pm

Don,

Thanks for the PM. It is good to see you posting. I appreciate your posts and I appreciate this forum as it tries to avoid what I can only kindly describe as flights of fancy approaching irrationality I encountered over on TNet. We do not all have to agree -- and it would be boring if we did. Personally I don't know just what to think about the LDM. Waltz had gold and he apparently had it in some quantity. But, just where it came from is a question that -- for me -- becomes increasingly "curious". The world is fully of surprises.

In my next and LAST book on the issue is an account of an old run down house. The house sat on a good sized piece of near Medford (OR) city limits. It was long past needing painting. On one side of the house was a small vineyard -- long gone to seed. There was a barn that also was long past having seen better days. So one day, me being me, I drove up the dirt road/driveway to the house. It was not deserted. An older man in patched cloths and shoes tied with knotted shoe laces tied together. Once he found out I was interested in the house and its story he loosened up and we had a nice chat.

My first impression was way off. He was not some sort of caretaker. He owned the house and all the surrounding land -- which was quite a bit. I latter learned he had other properties. One was a large lot with a Bi-More store and Texas Roadhouse restaurant. The house had no plumbing. He used an out house. The house had no electricity, no running water. The city of Medford had fought him for years about his lack of plumbing, no electricity, no running water, the condition of the house, etc. But, he had more money than the city and in the end it seems he always prevailed over the city. He agreed to let me interview him at a future date.

Well, I procrastinated and one day there was yellow tape across that dirt drive. He had died a few days before. A golden opportunity for oral history gone. Today on the large plot of land just behind his house a new athletic field was built. He left all his money (millions) to the city of Medford for the children of Medfodd. I remember one of the stories he told me that one time I got to talk with him. That he and a friend of his were having coffee in his house. His friend wanted to buy a piece of land that he owned. This friend slid a bland check across the table to him, saying name your own price. He told me he shoved it back and said something like: "No. Keep you money. You ever do this again and we are through!" Then they finished their coffee and his friend never tried to buy any of his land again.

I would have loved to have had a sit sown with him and a recorder. Procrastination robbed me of that. My loss.My fault.

T

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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:52 am

Thomas, Hi...it seems you did indeed miss out on collecting some possibley very interesting recollections from that particular individual. im quite a fan of the oral history genre,having read most of Studs Terkel's works,and only recently finished a book on Harlan County oral recollections...some of the stuff needs to be taken with a pinch of salt of course,but overall well worth reading. mind you ,as ive got older my reading habits ,to some (the wife lol) ,have become more bizzarre ...diaries from the 1600's, political diaries,oral histories of many kinds,even a book of captain cooks personal letters..sigh...so next time id say for you to grab the moment while the opportunity presents itself..but we all get sidetracked on occasion,but if you HAD done the interviews-HAD written the book -Id have most likely bought it
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