Massacure

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ThomasG
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Massacure

Post by ThomasG » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:49 pm

Gentlemen,

This question may well have been addressed before. What is the first/earliest mention of the massacre? And who was the person who first disclosed it?

Was it Bicknell? Bark? Or was it the Howlands? Or ...

I would dig through my files, but these days other things preclude me researching very much. So I am being lazy.

Thank you,

Thomas

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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:50 am

Hi Thomas,
I was concerned to read in your previous post that your wife has had an accident. I hope it’s not too serious, but if it is, then I hope that she makes a full and speedy recovery, and is soon up and around like nothing ever happened!

Regarding the massacre grounds, take a look at page 255 of “Arizona: The Last Frontier”. It was the book that Joe found some time back that talked about old Spanish mines at Goldfield. Unfortunately, it doesn’t give a specific date for the article. I will try to make a quick but readable transcription for anyone that doesn’t have a copy of the book:

“The Phoenix Gazette printed a letter sent to the editor from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1886. It was signed by “Bick” and reads as follows:

This picturesque range of mountains which is plainly visible from Phoenix, has for many years borne an unsavory reputation throughout the territory. Strange stories have been circulated concerning mysterious disappearances of luckless prospectors who have dared to penetrate its unknown gorges in search of fabulous deposits of rich ore, and it is even asserted that quite a party of prospectors who entered the range on an organized search for the “mother lode of the famous Silver King,” were never heard of after. The Indians are said to hold these mountains in superstitious awe, and in fact all these myths and fables originated with the Pima Indians many years ago when two hundred of their warriors followed a thieving band of Apaches into the range and were there ambushed by their treacherous foe, and cut off to a man. I have visited the scene of this tragedy and found only a few shattered war clubs and a fragment of a rawhide shield – all that remains to marks the scene of this Pima Waterloo. Not many years ago there were numerous bleached skulls and scores of clubs still on the ground. Some of the latter were taken to Phoenix where they adorned the shelves of cabinets.”

Might not be what you’re looking for, but I believe it is the earliest reference to a “massacre” grounds that I’ve seen. Obviously, “Bick” is P.C. Bicknell, but perhaps not so obviously the Willow Springs is maybe the one up farther north, and not the “Ruth” Willow Springs, as that one may not have been known by that name in 1886. Not sure. At any rate, it may be an early reference, but it doesn’t seem to shed much light on just whose bones were out there.

Take care, Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by ThomasG » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:31 am

Jim,

Thank you. I was going through – skimming actually – Bick’s 1895 article on Waltz and the mine. I did not find a reference to the massacre story. It puzzled me. As I say I was skimming.

When I get some spare time I’ll try and go a little deeper. But, I wonder if the massacre Bick refers to of the Pima’s got grafted onto the Dutchman legend?

There is a wrinkle, however, the Peralta family I know definitely have a remembrance of the massacre of an expedition that their family led.

I as curious, however, as to why Bick would not include such a dramatic tale in his 1895 article, "One of Arizona’s Lost El Dorados".

When I get the time I’ll go back to teh 1895 article.

If, however, that article does not have a reference to a/the massacre one has to wonder - Why?

Thomas

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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:42 pm

Thomas,

It would appear, to me at least, that the majority of Bick’s information came from Julia. In his 3 articles from 1894-1895, his story seems to change every time. But, my question is, how would Julia have known about a Peralta massacre? As far as I know, the story has never been attributed to been having told by Waltz himself, so if Waltz didn’t tell it to Julia, she probably didn’t tell it to Bick.

The article by Bick about the skulls and clubs in 1886 was pre-Waltz’s death, so there would be no reason for anyone to attribute skeletons being found en masse to the LDM or a Peralta mine. They just assumed (and perhaps rightly so) that the bodies were Pima. There is also the outside chance that there were two “massacre” grounds. Not that I’m saying there were. Just that it is possible given the centuries of warfare that took place between the Indians. For all we know, they could have been Apaches that were butchered by the Pimas.

So, I think you can rule Bick out as originator of the “massacre” story as it relates to the Peraltas. At some point soon thereafter, stories about the subject began to circulate.

For example, in a reprinted article in the Phila. Times, 23 JAN 1902 (I have never found the source), there is a story of a Mexican from Sonora with a large party of “employees” getting attacked by Indians while mining south of the Salt near Weaver’s Needle, leaving the area due to those attacks, and subsequently telling a German about the mine. January 1902! Only 10 yrs and 3 months after Waltz’s death.

Meanwhile, we know of fighting troubles between the Peraltas and Indians up at the Valenciana, which became so bad they decided to pack it in to Wickenburg.

Then, you personally know people from that family who know the massacre story, without seeming to have any knowledge or interest in the LDM or the tales that sprung up around it.

It seems to me that this is a word-of-mouth story, seemingly from many sources, that started to slowly make its way into the LDM lore…until we have the detailed massacre story by Bark. I’m not sure when he penned that particular story or got it from Scholey? I will keep looking.

Take care, Jim
Phila 1.JPG
Phila 2.JPG
Phila 3.JPG
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:44 pm

Continued:
Phila 4.JPG
Phila 5.JPG
Phila 6.JPG
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Re: Massacure

Post by ThomasG » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:12 am

Jim,

Well done! A most interesting article.

The start of the article reads: "From the Chicago Inter-Ocean". The Chicago Inter-Ocean was a Chicago newspaper. So I would assume that the article was also/originally printed in that newspaper. This would seem to be the earliest account of the Dutchman legend as we know it today -- two Germans, mine originally owned by a Mexican, location somewhere around the Salt River in the mountains, etc.

It does not relate a massacre, but (to me) implies significant losses to the Mexicans, such that the Mexicans abandoned the mine.

I wonder if Bicknell was the author??

Thomas

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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:59 am

Thomas,

Perhaps it was Bick...Personally I don't think Bick would have included a "Weaver" in an article he wrote about the LDM...I think this particular author was confusing a fictionalized Reavis with Weaver, a mistake I can't bring myself to believe Bick would make...but you DO have a good eye for details. :wink: Whoever wrote the story lifted a lot from Bick, including the first German going to Tucson to pick up the second German...sounds like it came straight out of Bick's 1895 article...

I've done a lot of looking and thinking on this...I do believe that the Apache Jack/George Scholey story by Bark is the first detailed reference to a Peralta massacre that I personally have seen...take that with the caveat that my library and/or knowledge of this subject is probably incomplete/lacking.

Take care, Jim
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Re: Massacre

Post by novice » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:07 pm

When I read the above story from the Philadelphia Times I thought I recognized some of the elements not included in the Bicknell 1895 article. I wondered how an eastern writer knew the stories of the LDM.

The Newspaper article below was shared with me by Steve Creager many years ago. It was written by Thomas Weedin (editor) and appeared in the Arizona Blade. I don’t believe that newspaper has survived but it was reprinted in the Prescott Miner in 1901, preceding the article posted by Jim. There are several paragraphs that are nearly identical to the Philadelphia newspaper.

There are other elements that appear to have been taken from Bicknell’s article.

I didn’t have time to do an in-depth comparison yet, but additional provenance of the Philadelphia article might be revealed?

28 Sep 1902 Prescott Miner Weeden-Waltz Story -1.JPG
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Re: Massacre

Post by novice » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:11 pm

28 Sep 1902 Prescott Miner Weeden-Waltz Story -4.JPG
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Re: Massacre

Post by novice » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:33 pm

Jim,

You wrote: I've done a lot of looking and thinking on this...I do believe that the Apache Jack/George Scholey story by Bark is the first detailed reference to a Peralta massacre that I personally have seen...take that with the caveat that my library and/or knowledge of this subject is probably incomplete/lacking.

This is the best and earliest reference I can tie to the origin of the massacre story. Larry Hannah did a lot of research on the Apache Jack/George Scholey story. I felt pretty confident Larry has identified Apache Jack in the indian records.

As I recall from Bark Notes, Apache Jack spoke of the massacre being an Apache and Pima Indian battle. My take was that Bark thought he had a handle on the location of the LDM and dismissed Apache Jack's story about it being Pimas and instead inserted the Mexicans. He even elaborated on why Jack made the mistake. I think Bark, like many treasure hunters, was spinning the story to fit his preconceived notions.

I doubt very much that it was Apache Jack making the mistake!

Garry

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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:29 pm

Garry,

Very interesting...I think you're right that the Phila Times/Chicago Inter-ocean article contains too many similarities to Weedin's article for it to be a coincidence. Some of the similarities are word-for-word...

I doubt Weedin would add a "Weaver" to the LDM story either...I may be wrong, but I think the reference to an old hermit "John Weaver" is unlikely to have come from either Weedin or Bick. Both men would have known who Elisha Reavis and Pauline Weaver were. Thankfully, Weedin's article contains no such story.

Seems like circular reporting IMO. Probably originated with Bick or Weedin. Each successive story "lifts" the main story of the previous one, making subtle changes or additions.

Thanks for the tidbit on Larry Hannah finding Apache Jack. I've always wondered about that Scholey story.

Take care, Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:52 am

so it seems the whole fabric is becoming unglued....doubts about the massacre are at last arising...which in turn casts doubt on the silverlock and goldlock story,the peralta mine party and a few other bits and pieces. add those to the doc thorne tale ,the ludicrous stone maps issue,the equally banal two soldiers tale,the waltz gold receipt, and quite a few other doubtfull foundations on which the LDM legend depended on and what are we left with? maybe after a hundred years or more of b.s the picture is being unravelled and being seen as the load of hot air it always was (in my opinion). but even so the zealots will remain convinced that a kernel of truth still remains and that 'ole jakes mine is out there ,covered by sage brush or a foot of caliche,..of such things dreams are made .and books sold ,and lives lost,and time wasted in the pursuit of something that never existed...at least never existed in the form it was presented to us as.
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:50 am

Don, hope all is well with you and it's good to hear from you.

I will take that bait :wink:

Just because we’re blowing holes in all the old campfire tales does not mean there was no gold mine. In fact, the veracity of these tales have nothing to do with the existence of any gold mine. To me, the two things are unrelated.

Fact is, if there was a mine or cache, only two people I know of ever had any information on it after Waltz’s death. Julia and Riney. Maybe, Dick Holmes knew something accurate as well.

There was so little usable information, none of those people ever found it. I would bet that none of those three people were truthful about what Waltz said regarding how to get to the gold. If they did manage to pass on the info truthfully and completely, I would bet they did that discreetly, and I wouldn’t expect THOSE people to talk, unless it was to spread disinformation.

In regards to the possible existence of Waltz’s gold, we have the sudden payoff of Julia’s bills, and sudden change in wealth of Dick Holmes, with seemingly decent information that he sold some gold ore. Both of these events happened around the time of Waltz’s death. That’s all we have. Then we have the search for the mine of both these parties. I don’t think people search that long and hard for a mine unless they heard it from the horse’s mouth and saw the gold. At the very least, it’s not the behavior of people who made it all up, or disbelieved what they heard from Waltz.

Back to the massacre: I happen to believe there is enough evidence to prove there were Mexican, maybe even Spanish mines in the area. It makes sense to me that the Apaches would have fought the Mexicans in the 1800’s. It’s what they did, at that period in time. Didn’t matter what the reason was, but they were especially determined to drive people out when it involved gold. We all know why. These are historical facts based on observation of their actual behavior.

The modern Peraltas, who could care less about the LDM, have family stories about being driven out of the area in just such an event described above. Was their source of gold the LDM? Nobody knows…Thus the discussion about the stories pertaining to it. Your denial of the existence of the LDM because people made up stories and forged documents about it, makes about as much sense to me as Jim Bark deciding those bodies at the massacre grounds must have been the Peralta’s…both leaps of faith unjustified by the evidence or lack thereof… :wink:
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:27 pm

Potbelly Jim
Hi...sorry you thought of it as "bait",though i understand why it might appear to be that..Id love to be proved wrong..The Ldm legend is something i grew up with.and of course the now disproved and doubtful facts were a large part of why i believed the tale...the "sudden pay of of julias wealth".."the increased wealth of dick holmes" for sure could be attributed to waltz's "mine" it could also be attributed to a 101 other reasons...maybe even a cover story for illegal acquisition of money,or come to that i suppose ,legal acquisition for some reason. and of course ,as you say ,anyone with genuine information or a genuine map and directions isnt going to be in a hurry to broadcast that info to anyone. yet that is what julia did on her first (and maybe subsequent searches)...maybe she needed an alibi to explain her sudden windfall....as for how close dick holmes was to julia thomas ive no way of knowing. Again if he sold gold ore,all well and good ,but so did lots of others-it didnt have to have come from the LDM.
To believe in the LDM based on what we know is in itself a "leap of faith". to come to a conclusion as to whether the LDM exists or not one needs verifiable evidence surely ? im not even sure we have circumstancial evidence, perhaps we have "POSSIBLE circumstancial evidence"which depends on a certain balance of possibilities and likelihoods and so on.As for the massacre -it could have been THE massacre ,or there again it could have been "any old" massacre ..you pays yer money and takes yer chances i guess.
anyway nice talking to you and thanks for the information and research you and several others have shared here....its all educational and several snippets ive read here has led me down different paths.
kind regards
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:34 am

Don,

Nothing to be sorry about...didn't really believe your post was bait, thus the wink & grin emojis...

You may be right that there's a bunch of possible explanations for Julia and Holmes having unexplained wealth around the time of Waltz's death...all I am trying to do is make sense of the evidence we have, and try to understand what it means when taken together...assuming the simplest explanation is the one most likely, all I'm saying is it sure does look like the Holmes and Thomas/Petrasch folks had a good reason to search for the LDM as the explanation for that wealth...

One thing I've always wondered about is why Juiia seems to have given up so quickly compared to the others...keeping on track with the simplest explanation is most likely the right one, could it be because Goldfield was booming right about then? Did she believe the finders of the Goldfield mines had found Waltz's source of ore? Did it jive with the information she had and kept close-hold about the mine's location? Something to think about.

Take care, Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:21 pm

maybe julia's "gold mine" was money derived from ticket sales to view waltz's corpse ,or income from the sales of phoney maps and cryptic clues?...im only partly serious ,but thinking it over ,that might be nearer the truth. be interesting to see,if available, Julia thomas's tax returns for that period..though id guess they would be confidential even now.
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Re: Massacure

Post by ThomasG » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:39 am

Gentlemen,

IMHO a very good discussion. Thought I ,might throw in my 2 cents worth.

- Did Waltz have gold and have it in quantity? I believe that the weight of the evidence is he did. That evidence is Julia’s turn around when she had no collateral. Holmes’ sudden improvement in life stile and the letter by Bark saying he see Gid. and Dick Holmes breaking up gold ore the morning of Waltz’s burial. His having the gold, however, does not dictate its source.

- Did the Mexicans mine between the Gila and Salt Rivers? Again I believe the weight of the evidence is most probably. The only way to prove it is tl get into the Mexican archives for documentation. I know of only one person who has done that and he says the answer is: Yes. However, I have not seen that evidence. That person is Gerald Hamrick. Jerry did, however, donate a copy of a map to the Historical Society that supports his statement. Further, when the Goldfield rush started old workings were found in the area.

- Was there a “massacre”? Probably. I would say most probably. However, that does not address who was massacred. Was it Mexican miners? Was in Pimas? Or?

- If I had to guess I would say that the massacre story we have today of Mexicans mining in the Superstitions, then being driven out by Apaches and ending up at the base of Superstition Mountain where they made a last stand and were killed to the last man is probably a creation of authors starting in the 1930s.

- What I think may have happened is that a large party of Mexicans was cornered on or around what is today called the Massacre Grounds. There was no massacre in the technical sense. Some escaped (a very few), and women and children were taken captive.

- This summary I base mostly on discussions with the Peralta family. The one thing that always strikes me is the sadness (to this day), the pathos and their attitude towards the Superstitions. Mostly they do not want to talk about it.

- Where the Mexicans came from is a good question. Legend places them as coming out of the Superstitions. However, there are good accounts of the Goldfield area having been worked before it was “discovered”. Including reports of a great mine. One can see how a massed Apache attack on mines in the Goldfield area could easily havedriven the survivors up to today’s massacre grounds.

- Anglos and Mexicans being who we are, I can well accept that in such an attack some survivors of the initial attack might well have tried to take some gold with them as they retreated towards the mountain.

- If this is what happened it could explain the Silverlock and Malm facet of the legend.

- I think the Edward and Green story of finding the remains is flawed – at the very least. My best evidnece is Green was not with the column of companies E and F. That the story of Barks cowboys finding the bones and burying them is also very highly suspect.

- IMHO what may have happened is that accounts and stories heard by Bark and others in the first part of the 1900s were melded into today’s massacre story. It may well have been done for profit during the depression – or, it may have been innocently constructed out of bits and pieces of gleaned over the year. That is, from trying to put the pieces together. Such as remembrances of a battle between Apaches and Pimas, Apaches driving out Mexicans from Goldfield, Silverlock and Malm finding some gold ore in where they did. It does not seem, however, that Silverlock and Malm found very much gold.

Thomas

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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:23 pm

Thomas
"His having the gold, however, does not dictate its source."
indeed! thats it in a nutshell...the dutchmans gold mine is but 1 possible explanation for the issues re thomas /holmes you mention..its conjecture that is all...saying it is evidence that the LDM probabley existed /still exists is altogether beyond the truth in my opinion.
To accept that there is evidence of mining in the superstition area,to accept that there has been a mexican presence in those mts during the time period and before, even to accept some kind of massacre took place (some have even suggested several massacres took place over a time period ,presumabley in same spot :wink: to iron out a few inconsistencies in the script where necessary) doesnt prove the existence of this supposedly phenomenally rich mine...even less, prove that jacob waltz owned it or had access to it. all it shows is that someone at some time said so....
as an example of this kind of logic in the U.K we have a group of "believers" who have "found" or believe they have found the location of king arthurs famous sword excalibur....the only thing thats stopping them proving that is the fact that the government,or the local council ,or the environment agencies wont allow them to dredge and drain a bloody great lake in cornwall where the sword is residing (according to this group)...now the "evidence" is similar in some respects,even allowing for the fact that it stretches back 1500-1700 years ago.....gossip,hearsay,claims,seemingly connected issues,such as ancient battle grounds, ancient carvings, legendary AND real figures involved in the legend etc etc....this is what happens when imaginations run amok,when folk start off believing and connecting dots and dashes ,wherever they can be found ,to form a picture which has allready been formed previously...in other words..it exists..now lets find a way to prove it..instead of the other way round....regards
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:40 am

Don,

I agree with you that folks will go out of their way to find evidence for something they want to believe (or disprove :) )…

Julia’s change in wealth, at least the one I’m referring to, did not come after Waltz’s death. It happened before his death…specifically between the dates of 28 March 1890 and 6 October 1891. This is documented to some extent, but not decisively (from what I’ve seen), in government records…

Not that it matters, as it couldn’t have contributed to paying off Julia’s debts prior to 06 October 1891…but I don’t believe there is anything but one checkered story that Julia sold tickets to people while Waltz was dying. Perhaps we should agree to disagree on whether or not it happened…but one thing I can say for certain…even if it did, it had no effect on her debts because they were paid prior to Waltz’s death.

Regarding “some” who seem to think that there were two massacres in the “same spot”…my apologies if I wasn’t clear…

I’m not talking about the “same spot”…we were discussing Bick’s 1886 article…the only locations given were Superstition Mountains, and Willow Springs…there are 4 Willow Springs that I know of, covering a somewhat large area around the traditional “Massacre Grounds”…further, nothing in the article states the skulls and clubs were found near Willow Springs, only that Bick seems to have penned his letter from there…(there may be people reading this who know exactly where the skulls and clubs were found… I don’t). Therefore, given that the entire area is a strategic location terrain-wise between warring factions, over centuries in time, I do not believe it is outside the realm of possibility that Bick was referring to a location OTHER than the traditional “Massacre Grounds”. I merely wanted to emphasize that we should exercise caution in assuming Bick’s and Bark’s “Massacre Grounds” were one in the same. If you think that’s unreasonable, well I don’t think there’s anything further I can say about that for you to see where I’m coming from. :wink:

Don, if you ever think I’ve made an error (which I most certainly have in the past, too many times to count), please do me a favor and call me on it directly, and specifically where I have erred. I will take no offense; you have my word on that. It’s the only way we can communicate effectively in an environment like a forum :roll:

Take care Amigo,
Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:58 am

Thomas,

A well thought-out post if I ever saw one...I think every one of your points is well founded. A very MINOR point, which may or may not be of any use:

Bark's letter about Gid Roberts was written about 40 years after the events described...and, he made no specific reference of time-frame to Roberds and Holmes breaking up the ore...Bark says Gid. Roberds took the ore from under Waltz's bed on the morning of Waltz's funeral...but he doesn't say when he saw them breaking up the ore...he goes on to say it was "on Dick's way from school", which I have never been able to make any sense out of...anyway, sounds to me like he was saying Roberds took the ore on the morning of Waltz's funeral, but he doesn't really specify when he saw them breaking up the ore...hope that makes sense...

There's one other thing which I'm not sure about...have to head out the door, more later...take care, Jim
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Re: Massacure

Post by don » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Potbelly jim
hi as regards the "some" i refferred to...it wasnt aimed at you...it was a discussion here some years ago where the suggestion was made that there may well have been at least 2 and possibly 3 or more "peralta massacres".it was put forward as a possible answer ,or solution, to certain details that didnt quite seem to fit the situation ...it seemed to me (me being me :D ) as an attempt to "bend the rules" a tad ..to be perfectly honest i cant even recall who put that explanation forward,though i seem to remember there was quite a bit of "head nodding" followed lol. I didnt say anything then because at that time this site /discussion forum had become quite a nasty place..there was quite enough name calling and intimidation going on..to disagree would have started another vendetta ..the game wasnt worth the candle :roll: thankfully this forum has become a civil arena since...but i can understand your point about possible massacre grounds locations.
We are all in the dark ...all we have are opinions...as for errors -im sure we ALL make them....but as you say in a medium such as this its easy to "get the wrong end of the stick"...my apologies i guess i could have worded things a little better .
whether thomas sold tickets or not- ive no way of knowing...but someone said or wrote that she did...maybe she did ..maybe she didnt...its hearsay AGAIN....could you elaborate on.the "not decisively" part of ........................ "Julia’s change in wealth, at least the one I’m referring to, did not come after Waltz’s death. It happened before his death…specifically between the dates of 28 March 1890 and 6 October 1891. This is documented to some extent, but not decisively (from what I’ve seen), in government records"….....
im also struck by your comment about Barks letter about gid roberts being written 40 years after the events described in it..i hadnt realised that but it can hardly fill one with confidence because of the time gap.....

kind regards
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Re: Massacure

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:03 pm

Don,

Re: multiple massacre grounds, I didn't know you were talking about a thread from years ago...fair 'nuff...

The Julia selling tickets story...I first saw that in Robert Allen's book...he attributed the story to Frank Alkire...Joe R., if I recall correctly, researched that one into the ground...a forum search for "Alkire Story" would explain it better than I could...happened before my time here, but from what I read, the findings and interpretation made sense and were good enough for me...Allen made some far out claims in his book so I wasn't surprised to hear there were issues...I think there may have been some other stories that tied into it...anyway, I never put much stock in the story after learning of those issues...that, and it just seemed out of character for Julia to have done something like that...something smelled funny, if you know what I mean.

The "not decisively" comment I made in reference to Julia's debts being paid off: I have only seen the judgement from Julia and Emil's divorce...I think Julia's lawyer had it entered at the Maricopa County Recorder's...somebody did, anyway...

First, the timeframe: Emil abandoned Julia on 28 March 1890, leaving her holding the bag with everything they owned having loans outstanding against them. By October 6, 1891, the date of their divorce judgment, she had paid off all the loans and other debts. Waltz died a few days later.

The judgement I saw talks about basically everything they owned had been mortgaged or had loans taken out against them in some form...what I meant by "not decisively" is the judgement doesn't go into much detail about the total amount of money involved...it only dealt with a lot and a half of property which had been mortgaged for $300.00...Julia paid that off and whatever else debts they owed...it left me with more questions, and wondering if there were other government documents dealing with the debts in more detail...thus I said: "not decisively(from what I've seen)"...I suspect other people may have seen much more, but I haven't...so to me it's still a big question mark...hope that makes sense...

Take care, Jim
Jim R.

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