Black Forest

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ThomasG
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Black Forest

Post by ThomasG » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:38 pm

Waltz ahs been connected to having come from the Black Forest, or Black Forest region.

I have tried a little to track down this idea/belief/...

Does anyone have info. on where this idea originated?

Thank you,

Thomas

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Potbelly Jim
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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:14 am

Hi Thomas,

Well, if there's any truth to the Black Forest story, it would be significant. That would mean Ol' Jake was probably from Baden, not Wurttemberg...

While, possible, I doubt it...even though Wurttemberg appears to be misspelled on both the Natchez and CA citizenship docs, if they are authentic, it's clear what they meant as William I checks out historically as being in charge in Wurttemberg during the time-frame of those documents.

All that being said, I've traveled all over Wurttemberg and Baden, (now the same state) including the Black Forest, and it's all pretty close, pretty much the same area...it's very possible he was born in Baden and lived in Wurttemberg...which would complicate the search for birth or family records.

As for the origination of Waltz being associated with the Black Forest region, I have looked at every source I have (I don't have ALL of them, so it was only a partial search) and I can find no reference to the Black Forest, other than it being nearby on maps. Take care, Jim
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Re: Black Forest

Post by novice » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:59 pm

Thomas,

Say it ain't so!

The only thing I can come up with is the figure in your book on page 112.

I was prepared to bet a lot of money that you have the ancestry of Jacob Waltz pegged with your recent research! 8O

Have you run across something that causes you to question that? :)

Garry

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Re: Black Forest

Post by ThomasG » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:22 am

Gentelmen,

I asked the question as I did not know if the Black Forest idea was an old one, or not. An old idea that simply did not surface publicly until Helen’s book.

If an old idea it met one thing, if not it met another. I had not recalled it as part of the legend from my earliest days of learning about the legend. So I wanted to ask others.

My earliest personal exposure to the idea/possibility presented as fact came for Matthew Roberts. I have had access to Helen’s materials and it seems her source was the same as mine.

Thus, the purpose of my question was to determine if there were other sources, and how far back in the legend did the Black Forest idea go.

It would seem that it was not pre-Roberts? Which is interesting in light of the results we found in Germany.

T

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Re: Black Forest

Post by novice » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:11 am

Thomas,

I did find a reference to the Black Forest in Helen’s first book, “The Curse of the Dutchman’s Gold”, published in 1990, Page 35 and 36. Bob and Helen were on a trip to Germany, doing research on the ancestry of Jacob Waltz? Is this trip, perhaps the reference you found in Helen’s research where she mentions the Black Forest?

Her later story, regarding Jacob’s ancestry in the Bible (2002) is totally different than her earlier version.

From the “Curse of the Dutchman’s Gold“ (1990, Pages 35 & 36).

“During May of 1985 through the auspices of Dr. Bertol Koester, the Honorary Consul for Arizona, we were privy to the Waltz Clan via records held in Wurttemberg, Germany, where Jacob was born. Dr. Koester’s connections within the government opened the necessary doors and church records.

Oberschwandorf, Wurttemberg is a small village nestled on the edge of Germany’s beautiful Black Forest, Today the town looks much the same as it did when it was a Barony belonginh yo the King of Wurttemberg.” The story continues.

I didn’t find anything regarding the Black Forest in Helen’s book, “The Bible”. This account would have been the Kraig Robert’s version (Waltz immigrated from Nagold, Wuttemberg). Nagold comes from the fabricated Olber's manifest. Helen now apparently believed in this revised version. :roll:

If this reference counts, it would push the timeline back to 1985.

Am I overlooking something?

Garry

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:58 am

Oberschwandorf was always in Wurttemberg, as far as I can tell, and while technically can be described as being "in" or "on the edge of the Black Forest", H.C. does leave this out of the "Bible". Something interesting:

Garry wrote:
From the “Curse of the Dutchman’s Gold“ (1990, Pages 35 & 36).

“During May of 1985 through the auspices of Dr. Bertol Koester, the Honorary Consul for Arizona, we were privy to the Waltz Clan via records held in Wurttemberg, Germany, where Jacob was born. Dr. Koester’s connections within the government opened the necessary doors and church records.
This quote also appears on pg 15 of the "Bible", but it appears Helen edited it the newer book to conform to the new "theory" of Nagold...in the "Bible", she took out references to Oberschwandorf, but left in a reference to the "now-divided town" and it having two mayors...(Oberschwandorf and Unterschwandorf?)

If you read that passage, the removal of any reference to a town, when speaking about the two mayors, is very confusing as we can't tell what town she's talking about, and to make things worse, there's a reference to "the city hall of Wurttemberg, Germany"...when she deleted the reference to Oberschwandorf, it read as if she was saying Wurttemberg was a city...

Now it all makes sense to me as to why it read that way. I lent my copy of the "Curse" years ago, and haven't replaced it yet, so I couldn't compare the two, so thanks Garry.

I think Garry has nailed down the actual Black Forest reference, and now I know why pg.15 of the "Bible" is so confusing...H.C. removed her references to Oberschwandorf, as it would conflict with Nagold, but left the bones of her meeting with Dr. Koester intact...
Jim R.

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:26 pm

Sorry, as usual, did not follow through on my thoughts....bottom line:

I agree that Helen C. was the one that originally wrote about the Black Forest connection (and it sounds like she was just using it as a descriptive tool in her writing, to describe where Oberschwandorf was physically located)...as Garry pointed out, this was as a result of a trip to Germany in 1985...so I think Garry's right, that the reference to the Black Forest pre-dates the Olbers manifest and should not be associated with any information based on it in the "Bible". When one looks at the editing that took place between the "Curse" and the "Bible", she removed references about Oberschwandorf and the Black Forest in order to accommodate the Nagold theory, which later turned out to be based on a false document...so maybe H.C. was right about a Black Forest connection all along with the information she got from her meeting in 1985, and confused the issue later when she tried to incorporate the Olbers Manifest.
Jim R.

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:00 pm

Potbelly Jim wrote:Sorry, as usual, did not follow through on my thoughts....bottom line:

I agree that Helen C. was the one that originally wrote about the Black Forest connection (and it sounds like she was just using it as a descriptive tool in her writing, to describe where Oberschwandorf was physically located)...as Garry pointed out, this was as a result of a trip to Germany in 1985...so I think Garry's right, that the reference to the Black Forest pre-dates the Olbers manifest and should not be associated with any information based on it in the "Bible". When one looks at the editing that took place between the "Curse" and the "Bible", she removed references about Oberschwandorf and the Black Forest in order to accommodate the Nagold theory, which later turned out to be based on a false document...so maybe H.C. was right about a Black Forest connection all along with the information she got from her meeting in 1985, and confused the issue later when she tried to incorporate the Olbers Manifest.
Guys,

Actually Robert Blair was the first to associant Jacob Waltz with the Black Forest. "Tales of the Superstitions" Pages 29,30. What you will find is "Schwarzwold", German for Black Forest.

Other than that, nice work.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:08 pm

I'm not sure about this, but I'm thinking the Black Forest thing may go back a bit farther than Helen C....

I'm going to try and attach a letter to the editor from 1938...I have a million questions about this lady...I've never heard of her...but she mentions where Waltz is from, and even the Danube...which originates in the Black Forest, and generally flows through Wurttemberg on its way to the Black Sea...hopefully you guys will be able to see these JPEGs I'm about to paste in...
1938-Letter-1.jpg
1938-Letter-2.jpg
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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:11 pm

Joe wrote:
Guys,

Actually Robert Blair was the first to associant Jacob Waltz with the Black Forest. "Tales of the Superstitions" Pages 29,30. What you will find is "Schwarzwold", German for Black Forest.

Other than that, nice work.

Take care,

Joe
It does indeed...nice catch, thanks Joe!
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Re: Black Forest

Post by novice » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:12 pm

Jim,

I have no idea where Lovelace got her information about Jacob’s ancestry. It would be interesting to know. She was a local around Phoenix and according to what I have read had a run-in with Barry Storm when she accused him of stealing her research. She wrote under the pen name of Leland Lovelace and I have a book published in 1956 entitled “Lost Mines and Hidden Treasure.” There is a very short story about the Lost Dutchman Mine. She reminded me of a John Mitchell type of author. I’m sure others here could better share her background.

From reading the 1938 article it is apparent to me that while she may have colored her account, she did some research as she mentions people and items which track with history.


Excellent analysis of the evolution of the tale regarding Jacob Waltz’s ancestry from Helen’s “The Curse of the Dutchman’s Gold” in 1990 to “The Bible” in 2002. I didn’t get to page 15 but stopped at 13. :)

In the 2007 Superstition Mountain Journal, Greg Davis has an article entitled, “Summary of Theories on the Early Years of Jacob Waltz” (Pg 35). This article is included within the context of a much larger account of research on Jacob Waltz’s early years.

Greg included accounts from:

“Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time” (Kollenborn and Swanson) Greg references “Tales of the Superstitions” (Robert Blair) as a source for their account.

“The True Story of Jacob Walzer and His Famous Hidden Gold Mine” (Bernard and Higham)

“The Lost Dutchman Mine” (Sims Ely)

“The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz” (Helen Corbin) (Pgs 7 to 13)

“The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz”, (Dr. Thomas Glover)

There are probably others that are not included.

From where I’m standing and what I’m able to see, I believe we are sucking a dry cow with these Jacob Waltz’s genealogy accounts.

Garry

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:16 pm

Ahhh...thanks Garry...I didn't make the connection between Bessie Barkley Lovelace and Bessie B. LOVELESS....for awhile there, when I was trying to figure out who she was, I thought it may have been Oren Arnold having a little fun...anyway I think you just answered my "million questions about this lady" in one fell swoop...

I went on amazon and ordered another copy of the "Curse", finally, after loaning it out about 10 years ago...I'm going to have to keep better track of the books I'm missing and get them re-ordered before they become too hard to find at a reasonable price.

Thanks for the biblio on Greg D.s article, I do have copies of the ones you listed...I just joined the SMHS a few months back (another "to-do" list item that took a decade or so), so I don't have any copies of the SMJ...yet....

You are probably right about "a dry cow" from what we have now, but I'm convinced the records exist, if someone is just lucky enough to find them overseas...

Take care, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: Black Forest

Post by ThomasG » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:08 pm

First I thank you for your efforts. Garry and Jim I first want to retract what I have written before on the origin of Waltz. Helen and I got our information from the same source. A once trusted source.

From what I understand from this tread is that the Black Forest story originated with Helen ... well not Hellen but her source.

I agree that working the problem from what has been published is a dead end.

T

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Re: Black Forest

Post by don » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:14 pm

when Helen Corbin wrote the ridicolous sentence "and we know that indians never lied" that did it for me..i couldnt take the rest of the book seriously no matter how i tried.....the same with estee conatsers book,cant remember the exact reasons why now..it might have been the bit about the 4 businessmen who made repeated trips to the superstitions to take the gold out.or perhaps the apache thundergods nonsense .the impression i got was that neither of those two authors could track a herd of elephants through 3 feet of snow,let alone find a lost mine...in fact id say the only book i read on the subject that i could take seriously was robert blairs "tales of the superstitions" and even that had a few errors ,ive since discovered. but that book at least didnt depend on flights of fancy or camp fire tales to form a conclusion.
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Re: Black Forest

Post by ThomasG » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:39 am

Gentleman,

My take is as follows ...

First, let’s consider Loveless’ report of Waltz the vineyardist. While we have accounts of Waltz and his farm, to my knowledge only Loveless has him as a vineyardist. That Waltz, among others, may have grown some grapes, may be true. But outside of Loveless I know of no other source that has him as a Loveless paints him. Further, Loveless ties Waltz to the hillsides above the headwaters of the Danube River. However, checking my Green Guide to Germany the Danube River appears to originate well south of the Black Forest region. It appears one living on the slopes above the Danube River and being in the Black Forest are mutually exclusive.

The conclusion I come to is that the first person to tie Jacob Waltz to the Black Forest itself was Blair. And Bair did it based on the Black Forest being a region in which the last name Waltz was very common—more common than in most other regions of Germany. When I first started my research on the name Waltz I came to the same conclusion as Blair. The following is from memory – so take it for what it’s worth. The name Waltz originated in Switzerland and as the name spread it became most common in Württemberg, especially in two regions: i) the Black Forest region, and ii) another area northeast of Baden-Baden.

Blair simply identified the most likely area of Waltzes as the one Jacob Waltz came from. I do not see any research by Blair in his book that actually says Jacob Waltz came from the Black Forest. I have not examined Blair’s papers (which if I recall correctly are at ASU, Special Collections) in well over a decade. An examination of these papers should answer the question of whether or not Blair had any direct evidence concerning Waltz and the Black Forest. For what it is worth, my guess is that he simply chose the most likely region – he made a good guess.

Given the above, it would seem the Black Forest idea as one based on research or “insider information” was first made public in Helens first book. That the idea started there, or more precisely with her source. Up until then it seems there was no source for the Black Forest idea outside of Blair’s best guess.

It would seem that the Black Forest idea is close to, if not, a house of cards. A shaky house of cards --- at best.

Thomas

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Re: Black Forest

Post by ThomasG » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:27 pm

Joe,

A PS:

Good catch on Blair and the Black Forest. I had forgot to check Blair. I opened my copy and there it was. My bad.

Well done...

Thomas

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:15 am

Thomas,

I believe the Danube does originate in the Black Forest, however I think it's irrelevant...I think the story related by Loveless may originate from the fact that there was a well-known fruit grower established on the original 160 acres of Waltz's "Section 16" not long after the original 160 acres began to be split up...this fruit grower also got into a legal dispute in 1893, involving some of that acreage, that he had purchased from Starar for an "old prospecting partner" of his to live on in his retirement...that area was then subdivided in the 1920's...

Also, not sure what records ASU has on Blair, but the AZ Historical Society seems to have/had some also...I was planning on stopping by there this fall as I have a biz trip on the schedule at FT Huachuca...was going to take a gander, but it sounds like the collection may have been moved??? Anyway, here's what they have or had at one time:
Blair1.jpg
Blair2.jpg
Blair3.jpg
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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:21 am

Thomas,

Does the above "ring a bell"? If the records are in Tempe vice Tucson, I had better start calling around to see where they are...I'll be up in the valley also this fall, just need to pin down where they're being held and who to talk to when I get there...take care, Jim
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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:06 am

And one more time...just found out Blair's stuff is indeed up in the valley...BTW, I'm looking for something very specific in those records, so I don't plan on a deep dive, but if anyone wants me to get copies of something...PM or e-mail me with what you're looking for.
Jim R.

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Re: Black Forest

Post by novice » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:31 am

Guys ,

Several years ago, Carol and I worked with the Robert Blair Collection. It was located in the Hayden Library at ASU on the 4th? floor in the Arizona Historical Foundation Room. The Luhrs Room which has a lot of Hayden's papers was next door. In 2012 The Foundation closed it's doors and the Blair collection was transferred to the Arizona Historical Society, Library and Archives at AHS Papago Park.

Not all collections went to Papago Park but were spread around to other Historical repositories.

From our viewing fo the Blair Files, I thought there were 7 boxes? We spent a day there and It would take a much longer period to go through all of the information. I think we only worked with a couple of boxes. I would have to go back and look at the material we copied as I'm not sure now what we were looking for. I know we copied some Reavis (Peralta) information and I think a letter from Greg Davis's brother correcting what Blair had wrote as to the location of Waltz mining activities in California. I'm sure there were other things we copied.

We?, I enjoy digging through files like Blair's. I doubt many people have ever pulled those boxes and looked through them so you have a good chance to find a lot of original material.

Garry

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Re: Black Forest

Post by Potbelly Jim » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:55 pm

Hey Garry,

Thanks...I'm glad Thomas brought Blair's papers up, as the AHS in Tucson probably would have given me a blank stare and a shrug...I made a mistake in assuming his stuff would be there...so it would have been a wasted trip...

The info I had on the Blair collection appears to be from the early '90's, so it's possible that some additional material had been added when you guys took a look at it...perhaps there are 7 boxes now...

Sounds like some phone calls are in order to find out exactly where I need to go...

Thanks, Jim
Jim R.

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